Core Balanced? A DM/Player Headache...

[Scarlet Tropix]

Hello. New here on the forums, first thread. Consider this my warm, hug filled hello to you all. I also have a problem which I'd like advice on.

I DM 3.5 consistently for a small group of friends who I've known out of school for a few years now. The group is normally quite enjoyable, despite their murderous, psychotic tendancies, and for the most part what I say as DM flies. I try to repay this kindness by being fairly open to whatever madness it is they want to do, be it plot or combat related.

Recently, I purchased a vast majority of the non-core sourcebooks, from obvious to totally obscure. We had been running on core-only up until that point, and the expansion has been great for me both in and out of game. Two of my three players love the new stuff, but one of my players (let's call him Gabe) has been having minor meltdown every time I use non-core.

Now, Gabe is decent player normally, enough that I usually consider him the most level headed of the group, and enough that he is usually the guy we pick as DM when I don't feel like leading. So I was very surprised at his outburst, and took him aside to figure out the problem.

His complaint was, as you may have guessed, that he thought the new books were hideously unbalanced. I admitted that this was probably true, but it likely couldn't get more broken then core. His response?

"That's just it, I like core because it's perfectly balanced."

I'm sure you can guess how things went from there. Despite all logical and numerical evidence to the contrary, I was unable to convince him that Core wasn't already broken as is.

Among other things he thinks the Fighter is capable of matching and defeating the Wizard at any level 50% of the time, that the Monk isn't hindered by stat spread, that the Druid is actually fair, etc.

In addition to all that stroke-inducing nonsense, he has told me that he won't be playing my games anymore until I go back to just core, which no one else in my group is willing to do.

So to sum up, I'd like advice on just what to do. This is essentially the only squabble the group has ever had, and I don't want Gabe to leave the group. I'm capable of respecting his opinion and feelings on the matter, but his position is fairly invalidated from the start. We meet again this weekend, and I really need to smooth this over by then.

Help me out, forum?

[PinkysBrain]

Sounds to me like he is volunteering to DM.

Let him DM a pre-made module for something with parties above 6 and go for a non holds barred caster party (and a rogue/wizard/trickster) should teach him a thing or 2.

[mikej]

Kind of being selfish isn't he? The whole core only or I'm leaving part. First off, what class is he playing, maybe he just nervous that his character willn't perform well compared to the other non-core using characters.

[Scarlet Tropix]

*Shakes your hand* Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Actually, normally I'd agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that he really hates DMing. Whenever I feel like taking a break we really have to beg him into it. It's not that he's bad at it per se, I just don't think he really likes it.

EDIT:

*Shakes your hand also*

He's done a bunch over the years, but his favorite is Rogue or Commando (A homebrew class I found. Has no trouble with those, even the broken ones.) Right now he's playing as a straight up Fighter, which he continues to maintain will not be overshadowed by our Wizard or Cleric.

[kamikasei]

Heh, I agree with PinkysBrain.

This isn't really about balance. This is about throwing a tantrum even though everyone else is having lots of fun. I won't speculate as to why he's so uncomfortable with non-core material, but if you've been continuing to play since the switch and the game is still fun and challenging, what is there to complain about?

A player should not be issuing ultimatums like that. If he has so little trust in your judgment as a DM, then it's only proper that he shouldn't be a player at your table. That sound harsh, but that's what it comes down to: rephrased, simply point out that the group were having fun before the switch, have continued to do so after the switch, and his opinion of the balance of non-core material is really irrelevant so long as he has the basic trust any player should have in his DM to run a fair and fun game.

[Tempest Fennac]

My approach would be to not worry about what he thinks (admittedly, I like players to have a lot of freedom of choice when playing, so I tend to allow most things, barring save-or-die effects, some of the more breakable spells, Half creatures*, Core Druids and Divine Metamagic). My advice would be to demonstrate that non-core things aren't more broken by suggesting he sticks around for at least a few games with everything being allowed.

*This is a flavour thing rather then a balance issue.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Run a PVP. He plays a party consisting of a Fighter, Monk, and Ranger, you play a party consisting of a Druid, Wizard, and Cleric. Meet on neutral ground and see who wins...

[Scarlet Tropix]

*Shakes everyone's hand retroactively*

I hear what you're saying, Kamikasei. The only reason I don't kick him (As I am kind of a peace-Nazi when it comes right down to it...) is that we have never had so much as an inkling of a problem before, even during character death or far worse.

Also, there aren't a lot of people in the area I could replace him with.
So yeah, actually if you guys have any advice on finding players, that'd be great too.

EDIT:
I lol'ed, Pharaoh.

[mistformsquirrl]

I gotta agree with the others as well.

This does not strike me at all as a 'balance' concern. He has another reason - be it being personally uncomfortable with change (maybe he already knows all the rules and doesn't feel right if there are new ones that could come up that he has no idea about?) - or maybe he just likes the attention.

Worst comes to worse, if you and the other two are having fun, let him go. It's not fair to you or the other two to be tied down solely because of one person's hangups.

Especially since if at any point balance DOES become a real concern, you can always just houserule it as the DM; he should know that and trust you enough to take care of it if it becomes an issue, imo.

*edit*

To add in to the above - one option would be to simply allow the players to each have a Cohort for free. Probably not ideal; but it'd keep the party size up if that's a concern.

As for kicking him - if he's threatening to go, you don't have to do it >.< just let him leave on his own - or he'll change his mind and stick around. Either way, there's not a lot you really CAN do about it unless you completely cater to him <'x'> which... well yeah, that just doesn't work in my experience.

[Scarlet Tropix]

Sounds to me like he is volunteering to DM.

Let him DM a pre-made module for something with parties above 6 and go for a non holds barred caster party (and a rogue/wizard/trickster) should teach him a thing or 2.

I think I might try that actually.
I knew it was a good idea to download all those Modules.
Course if I'm not subtle about it, that makes it worse.

[kamikasei]

Run a PVP. He plays a party consisting of a Fighter, Monk, and Ranger, you play a party consisting of a Druid, Wizard, and Cleric. Meet on neutral ground and see who winds...

I really wouldn't bother. This isn't about who's right or wrong in an abstract argument of balance. If they were having a simple disagreement on that issue that they wanted settled, it might work.

Rather, this is about a player seeing a DM introduce something he doesn't like, freaking out about it despite the fact that everyone else at the table is fine with (and enjoying) it, and demanding that the game be changed to suit him and him alone on threat of boycott. Now, for one player who is the only one seriously bothered by a game element to ask it be removed is not automatically unreasonable; a player may be uncomfortable in principle or due to their own past with various kinds of evil act, or may have an actual phobia regarding certain creatures or scenarios. But throwing a fit over the issue of non-core material just doesn't cut it; it's not something that should be indulged.

I hear what you're saying, Kamikasei. The only reason I don't kick him (As I am kind of a peace-Nazi when it comes right down to it...) is that we have never had so much as an inkling of a problem before, even during character death or far worse.

I'm not really advocating throwing him out, but I am advocating standing firm and refusing to let an ultimatum sway you. If someone wants to escalate the situation like that, let them eat the consequences.

Rather than kicking him, just ask him to give you the benefit of the doubt and trust that you'll continue to be a competent DM who runs a good game (you are, right? ). But make it clear that "change to suit me or else" is not an approach you're willing to accomodate.

Also, what mistformsquirrl said.

[Scarlet Tropix]

(maybe he already knows all the rules and doesn't feel right if there are new ones that could come up that he has no idea about?)

Hmm. I never thought about that, but now that I think about it he is a bit of a rules lawyer, and he does get irritated when he gets tripped up by something he doesn't know about, like the time I stole his Cleric's Holy Symbol he didn't know he had...

Maybe I should just sit down and go over the new rules with him?
Everyone else was content to just grab and skim, but maybe I haven't been considerate of his mentality...

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Also, there aren't a lot of people in the area I could replace him with.

A butter squash with a face drawn on it in sharpie would serve well in the role, I imagine.

[mikej]

Run a PVP. He plays a party consisting of a Fighter, Monk, and Ranger, you play a party consisting of a Druid, Wizard, and Cleric. Meet on neutral ground and see who winds...

That will do what? Just to show him that it's bad either way, core or non-core. He may just leave right there. My DM thinks the same way as the OP's friend/player. He didn't want to touch a D&D book for like a year after I showed him the truth. Although, to be a fly on the wall if that method you'd suggested was used.

Have you tried to meet him half way? First tell him that pulling that sort of ultimatum like attitude is not being respectfull towards you, the others. Maybe sort out what he dislikes, put some limitation of what is allowed outside of core, show him some usefull ( and fun ) non-core methods to advance his Fighter.

[AstralFire]

Here's what you tell him:

We are all friends here. We mutually respect one another and the game. I believe this additional material is balanced from how I have examined it, but that's tangential. More importantly, it is workable. Balance of these additional materials does not concern me because ultimately, I have faith that none of the players will intentionally abuse the mechanics in such a way that will destroy the enjoyment of the game for us. And the overwhelming majority of mechanical flaws in this material do require intentional abuse of the rules. I have confidence in myself and <mechanically competent players> to pick up whatever slack remains.

We're having fun. Let's keep having fun.

Don't argue him on the grounds of balance. You are right, he is wrong, and it sounds like his ego is not going to let him accept that in a direct confrontation. Head him off at the pass.

And welcome to the Playground.

[Scarlet Tropix]

A butter squash with a face drawn on it in sharpie would serve well in the role, I imagine.

Ouch. That's harsh. XD

[Pharaoh's Fist]

That will do what? Just to show him that it's bad either way, core or non-core. He may just leave right there.

He clearly shouldn't be playing DnD with people then. His loss would not be a problem.

[Random832]

Sounds to me like he is volunteering to DM.

Let him DM a pre-made module for something with parties above 6 and go for a non holds barred caster party (and a rogue/wizard/trickster) should teach him a thing or 2.

Make sure you play a Druid. Who turns into dinosaurs and whatever else you can find in the MM. If he tries to ban something, just say: "Is this you admitting that core isn't balanced? "

[Scarlet Tropix]

Ohmygosh it's AstralFire.

I love your work!
*Fangirl moment*

Anyway, thank you all for your help. I think I have a pretty good idea of how to handle this now.

[PinkysBrain]

Well if you can't argue with him and you can't show him the only thing left to do is emotional manipulation ... beg him to play the first couple of sessions.

[AstralFire]

Ohmygosh it's AstralFire.

I love your work!

That's something you don't hear every day.

Well um. I love your username! Coronas are awesome! And hope my advice helps.

I used to be named 'CoronaFire', but everyone went 'like the beer'? and I gave up.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Ohmygosh, it's AstralFire!

Well if you can't argue with him and you can't show him the only thing left to do is emotional manipulation ... beg him to play the first couple of sessions

No guilt trips? No blackmail? No breaking up of his relationships?

Emotional manipulation fail.

[Scarlet Tropix]

I think what I'm going to do is go over the new stuff with him personally, maybe teach him some ways to improve the base fighter. If that doesn't work, then yeah, I guess I'm going to have to let him go.

Thanks for the help, guys.

Edit:
I'm not gonna mess with his relationships or nothing like that. Dude's two feet bigger than me. XD

If anyone's still around though, all four of us DO agree that we need another player. Any advice on picking one up?

[mikej]

He clearly shouldn't be playing DnD with people then. His loss would not be a problem.

touche

I personally wouldn't stand for such a immature ultimatum in a game that involves cooperation and mutual enjoyment. If the OP is okay with his departure, then send out his balanced core Fighter in style with a core Wizard. If not, back to the drawing board, work out some mutual agreement.

Have you tried showed him the Warblade from Tome of Battle. He may have a unsuspected accident in his pants upon reading what it can do.

Edit: Internet, local gaming shops and college/university are great places to find new players or groups.

[AstralFire]

If anyone's still around though, all four of us DO agree that we need another player. Any advice on picking one up?

If you live in a populated or suburban area, could always try our very own Finding Players board. Beyond that, there's the standard 'hit up your Friendly Local Gaming Store' advice. I mostly play digitally, so I can't help too much on that front. >.<

[mistformsquirrl]

Hmm. I never thought about that, but now that I think about it he is a bit of a rules lawyer, and he does get irritated when he gets tripped up by something he doesn't know about, like the time I stole his Cleric's Holy Symbol he didn't know he had...

Maybe I should just sit down and go over the new rules with him?
Everyone else was content to just grab and skim, but maybe I haven't been considerate of his mentality...

This would make a lot of sense to me honestly.

I *used* to be very much like this myself. I pretty much had to know *every* rule from *every* source we'd get. Someone bought a new book, I'd be the first to borrow it and read it until it was as memorized as I could make it.

So assuming this is the perspective he's taking... and from your statement my guess seems likely, the best bet is definitely to sit down and see if you can go over the rules with him.

I'd also suggest, politely, to him that it's OK to not know absolutely everything. It's fine to sometimes have to dig out the books, or take someone else's word for it.

And, if necessary, remind him of the ultimate rule - even above "The DM is always Right": It's a game - it's meant for fun. If you play a rule wrong by mistake, so what?

The above is pretty much how I stopped being so obsessive myself >.< That and it finally dawned on me that I could never memorize every RPG rulebook I'd need to use. It's just not feasible. It may help him if someone reminds him why he's gaming.

May work, may not, but it can't hurt to try at least <^_^>

[Scarlet Tropix]

touche

I personally wouldn't stand for such a immature ultimatum in a game that involves cooperation and mutual enjoyment. If the OP is okay with his departure, then send out his balanced core Fighter out in style with a core Wizard. If not, back to the drawing board, work out some mutual agreement.

Have you tried showed him the Warblade from Tome of Battle. He may have a unsuspected accident in his pants upon reading what it can do.

Actually, strangely enough I did. I don't remember his reaction though.
(And I prefer the Swordsage myself.)

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I'm not gonna mess with his relationships or nothing like that. Dude's two feet bigger than me. XD

Just means that you have easier access to his groin.

[Tempest Fennac]

Do you or your D&D buddies have friends or family members who could be talked into joining your group? That could be a source of new players.

[Scarlet Tropix]

If you live in a populated or suburban area, could always try our very own Finding Players board. Beyond that, there's the standard 'hit up your Friendly Local Gaming Store' advice. I mostly play digitally, so I can't help too much on that front. >.<

Thanks for that. And sorry if I startled you earlier, it's just that I've been using your stuff for a long time.

To Tempest-
Two of us have no siblings, my family is less than interested. We've been working on friends, but most of them live too far away to be regulars.