Get lvl. 3 spells at Sorc. 5?

[Lord of Syntax]

I am trying to get in to pale master (you need Vampiric Touch) as a sorc. 5 and i was thinking of using Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon. opinions and recommendations

[sofawall]

Well, if you're a kobold, Greater Draconic Rite of Passage fits perfectly.

[Lord of Syntax]

Perchance, would you tell me what book is that from?

[Tempest Fennac]

It's from Races of the Dragon. It can also be found on http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a . (I came up with some different Kobold stats which may help you here; +2 Dex and Cha -2 Str and Con, Small, 30' Movement, Darkvision 60', +1 Natural Armour, +2 to Trapmaking, Mining and Search checks).

EDIT: Actually, that wouldn't work; you'd need at least 6 levels to do that ritual.

[Lord of Syntax]

Don't you need 6HD for that, a lvl 5 sorc. only has 5HD

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Take Heighten Spell along with Versatile Spellcaster, and by both RAW and RAI you'll be able to cast spells of one level higher than what you have spell slots for. Heighten Spell and Earth Spell from Races of Stone would also work, but that also requires Earth Sense so it's one more feat you'd have to spend.

You'd do well to go with a Kobold and get the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage with any Sorcerer character regardless of what route you take.

I personally wouldn't mind getting the sixth Sorcerer level, the sixth level of any class gets you +1 to your BAB and all three of your base saves, whereas the fifth level of any class never improves your base saves. There's not much reason to jump out at Sorcerer 5, stop at the 4th level if you can, otherwise the 6th level is probably a better choice in the long run.

Pale Master requires 8 ranks in Knowledge: Religion anyway, which Sorcerers don't get as a class skill. You could pick up Knowledge Devotion from Complete Champion to get it as a class skill, though.

[sofawall]

Dangit, I thought it was 5HD. My bad.

[Lord of Syntax]

I will prolly be a hyooman (shameless ST: TNG reference)

[olentu]

For versatile spellcaster I seem to remember there are some feats in dragon magazine that can substitute for heighten spell but I do not remember them clearly and so can not say if they are any good or not.

I guess you could also be a kobold loredrake for +2 levels of sorcerer spellcasting.

[Bayar]

Loredrake Dragonwrought kobold. get it at level 4.

[Eloel]

, the sixth level of any class gets you +1 to your BAB and all three of your base saves, whereas the fifth level of any class never improves your base saves.

I never noticed this. Nice.

[Triaxx]

Isn't this exactly what Precocious Apprentice is used for? Or do I have it confused?

[PId6]

Nobody mentioned White Dragonspawn with LA buyoff?

[sofawall]

Isn't this exactly what Precocious Apprentice is used for? Or do I have it confused?

That gives a second level spell to qualify for theurging. Not applicable here.

Nobody mentioned White Dragonspawn with LA buyoff?

Slipped my mind. I'm so used to people smacking me when I mention it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Indeed, a Dragonwrought Kobold with the Loredrake option from Dragons of Eberron is a bit cheesy but it can easily pull it off. Probably just as bad as going White Dragonspawn, though you can combine the two if you either retrain or Psychic Reformation into Dragonwrought after gaining White Dragonspawn. By off the +1 LA and get the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, and you've got +4 levels of Sorcerer spellcasting along with all the dragonspawn goodies.

[Darrin]

Take Heighten Spell along with Versatile Spellcaster, and by both RAW and RAI you'll be able to cast spells of one level higher than what you have spell slots for. Heighten Spell and Earth Spell from Races of Stone would also work, but that also requires Earth Sense so it's one more feat you'd have to spend.

I think Versatile Spellcaster + Arcane Disciple would also work. The problem with Versatile Spellcaster is you need to know a 3rd level spell. Heighten Spell can increase a spell you already know to 3rd. I know the Bloodline feats from Dragon magazine/compendium add to your spells known, as well as I believe the Draconic Legacy stuff from RotD. I think Arcane Disciple adds domain spells to your known spells.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Arcane Disciple specifically says you add them to your class spell list, but don't automatically know them. Certain Bloodline feats (page 112+) would work, the Necromantic Bloodline would definitely be the one to use in this case. Another option would be to take a level of Wizard to learn a limitless number of spells using the Spellcraft skill. You wouldn't need to put them into a spellbook unless you plan on preparing them, but you would know them for purposes of Versatile Spellcaster allowing you to cast any spell you know of the appropriate level.

[Lord of Syntax]

I reread pale master, it was ****ty for my needs. recommendations for a good 5-lvl prestige class or a 10-lvl class that is ok to only take 5-lvls of

[Eldariel]

I reread pale master, it was ****ty for my needs. recommendations for a good 5-lvl prestige class or a 10-lvl class that is ok to only take 5-lvls of

What are you going into after those 5 levels? Helps to know. Anyways, Mindbender is a solid 1-level dip and Fatespinner is nice for a couple of levels (you can only enter at level 8 though and that's with Greater Draconic Rite of Passage). Mage of the Arcane Order isn't bad either though you'd probably want full 10 levels of it due to the hefty feat cost of entrance.

Geometer isn't bad and you can enter it on level 7 (so you can go Mindbender 1/Geometer 4). Divine Oracle isn't horrible either, though it costs a feat to enter. Sacred Exorcist is nice if only to get Turning (handy for a Cha-based character to fuel divine feats), but it's only level 10 enterable for you due to spell levels.


Then there are of course Faerun- and Eberron-alternatives like Incantatrix, Hathran, Spellguard of Silverymoon, Recaster, Alchemist Savant, etc. which all form solid options given the permission to pick them. Reference the appropriate Player's Guides for more information.

[sofawall]

Indeed, a Dragonwrought Kobold with the Loredrake option from Dragons of Eberron is a bit cheesy but it can easily pull it off. Probably just as bad as going White Dragonspawn, though you can combine the two if you either retrain or Psychic Reformation into Dragonwrought after gaining White Dragonspawn. By off the +1 LA and get the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, and you've got +4 levels of Sorcerer spellcasting along with all the dragonspawn goodies.

I love me some War Weaver and Paladin to go with that. Lost caster levels? Pff, I have 4 to spare!

[Lord of Syntax]

It's for a game that me and a friend are building chars for and I am going clerical necro, and he is going arcane spellcaster, but he asked me to give him a good build so i was thinking sorc 5/pale master 5/elemental savant (cold) 10. any short prestige class that fits in where pale master is, full spellcasting and if poss. give a way to control undead

[Keld Denar]

Sacred Exorcist is nice if only to get Turning (handy for a Cha-based character to fuel divine feats), but it's only level 10 enterable for you due to spell levels.

You mean....9? You need 1 4th level spell, which you get at 8. That means you can take the first level at 9, not 10.

Requires Dismissal (Clr4/Wiz4) or Holy Smite (Good4/Glory4). Dismissal is the better option because the other 2 require Arcane Disciple (Good or Glory) and a 14 wisdom BLECH.

So yea...as bad as everyone says Sorc20 is, I don't think its that bad. Spend your feats on stuff you want, rather than stuff you have to. Granted, a 1 level Mindbender dip and 4 levels of Fatespinner don't have any feat prereqs, but getting the skill ranks can also be very annoying, especially if you don't have a steller Int score. Divine Oracle is pretty good if you can buy the feat with the Frog God's Fane magical location in Complete Scoundrel or Mage (forgot which) and has a larger HD, better BAB, and really cool class features. I just can see spending 3 feats to get into MotAO or 4 feats to get into Loremaster or 3 feats to get into Archmage, or worse, 6-7 feats to get into two of them and then not having feats left over for fun stuff.

EDIT:
An alternative to Clerical Necro is the class Dread Necromancer from Heroes of Horror. Its a really awesome class, and works well all the way to 20, or you can PrC out at 8. Its arcane instead of divine, and Cha based, which is always fun. Gets rebuke undead early as well.

I wouldn't go Elemental Savant. Thats kinda...not good. Loses caster levels and doesn't really make up for it. If you want to go with the cold theme, Frost Mage from Frostburn is MUCH better.

[Eldariel]

You mean....9? You need 1 4th level spell, which you get at 8. That means you can take the first level at 9, not 10.

Dismissal is Cler 4, Sorc/Wizard 5.

[Keld Denar]

Doh! Yea...then youd take your first level at 11, not 10.

[Eldariel]

Doh! Yea...then youd take your first level at 11, not 10.

Greater Draconic Rite of Passage :)

[Lord of Syntax]

From my reading frost mage is kinda suck, kinda really suck

[Keld Denar]

Better than Elemental Savant...

If you really want ot be a cold blaster, check out the feat Lord of Uttercold. It converts half of your cold damage to negative energy. Skeletons are immune to cold, and are healed by negative energy, so you can [Cold] Fireball them all day to keep em healed while damaging your foes.

And yea...from there you want to combine Snowcasting with Cold Focus and Lord of Uttercold and maybe even Piercing Cold to deal with things with resistances.

[Mongoose87]

Better than Elemental Savant...

If you really want ot be a cold blaster, check out the feat Lord of Uttercold. It converts half of your cold damage to negative energy. Skeletons are immune to cold, and are healed by negative energy, so you can [Cold] Fireball them all day to keep em healed while damaging your foes.

And yea...from there you want to combine Snowcasting with Cold Focus and Lord of Uttercold and maybe even Piercing Cold to deal with things with resistances.

That is plain awesome.

[mcl01]

Evenmore fun: Wall of Fire [Cold].

2d6+CL damage. Half Cold, Half Negative energy. Undead heal half of this. But wait! Wall of Fire specifically says it does double damage to undead. Thus, 2d6+CL damage of cold/negative energy damage to everyone except for undead. Also 2d4 to those outside the flames up to 10' away. 1d4 up to 20' away. Every Round. Sor/Wiz 4, so it lasts for 8 rounds minimum. It can also be made permanent. Fill your castle with permanent walls of fire [cold], fill them with undead, and have fun!

[quick_comment]

Better than Elemental Savant...

Elemental Savant isnt as bad as people say it is. Sure, its a blasting prc, but if you want to go blasting, its not terrible.

Fire savants get scorching spell, which cuts through all resistance and most immunity. Ice gets piercing cold, which does the same thing. Lightning and sonic get born of the three thudners.