Regarding Duels

[TaintedLight]

A friend of mine and I were talking recently about party roles in D&D and I came to the conclusion that an wizard who is careful will not lose to a fighter of the same level after a point. It's pretty clear that at 1st level magic missile will not save you from a fighter with a greataxe, but at 20th level (with appropriate gear for each) how does a smart wizard manage to die? If the fighter is a melee type, flying seems to be a logical choice. Should the fighter specialize in ranged combat, a well-placed prismatic sphere will stop the arrow/bolt/javelin/whatever. Even if the fighter has a ring of antimagic to protect him from spells, the wizard could kick back with a wall of force and a few summon spells to finish the fighter off in complete safety. If all else fails, the wizard can end the fight on his own terms by casting Time Stop and teleporting to safety if he doesn't think he can win right then and there.

The question is this: Can a fighter of 20th level beat a careful wizard of equal level in core? If you use non-core material in your answer, make sure you adjust your answer for the fact that a wizard has access to more stuff from that source too.

[Scarlet Tropix]

I'm tempted to say no, especially if the wizard is cautious/prepared, which means almost the same thing to wizards as it does to Batman.

On the other hand, a sufficently buffed/item boosted fighter might be able to survive long enough against said wizard (hypothetically) to get a critical with a vorpal weapon, which would probably get the job done.

Except the Wizard could cast Time Stop, some sort of Save-or-Suck, or maybe just Dominate him.

Honestly, if the Wizard wins initiative and doesn't feel like screwing around, I'd say fighter is nearly always doomed.

[TaintedLight]

That was pretty much my feeling. The thing is, a straight fighter with no outside aid except his equipment, feats, and combat ingenuity just seems screwed from the outset against a foe who is (nearly) limitlessly morphic.

[Myshlaevsky]

Give the fighter 5% magic resistance per level.

[TaintedLight]

That's still a no-go. Even if the wizard can't hit him with a spell directly, he can cast Gate and summon a creature with 40 HD to do the job (fiendish/celestial dragon?)

[arguskos]

*sigh* Really? This thread again? Oi.

Ok, I'll wait for someone to come along and explain why you are completely correct in assuming that a Fighter 20 cannot ever defeat, or even affect, a Wizard 20 in combat. Ever.

The basics however, go along the lines of "I"m Astral Projecting from my Magnificent Mansion, am encased in a Prismatic Sphere, and have Gated in some doom-monster of death to slaughter you. Have fun, kthx."

[Scarlet Tropix]

That's still a no-go. Even if the wizard can't hit him with a spell directly, he can cast Gate and summon a creature with 40 HD to do the job (fiendish/celestial dragon?)

Yeah, fighter will love that.

Seriously, other than a lucky Vorpal, I don't think fighter has a chance.

[TaintedLight]

Argus, I suppose that scenario could come up but even if we assume that the wizard is on the field of battle in-the-flesh, is there a way for the fighter to win? What about in non-core?

[Green Bean]

Well, most optimized Wizards start at Venerable to increase their Intelligence. Maybe the Fighter will get a lucky maximum age roll.

[arguskos]

Seriously, other than a lucky Vorpal, I don't think fighter has a chance.

See, even with a lucky vorpal, it doesn't matter. He'll never get the CHANCE to use it on anything at all. The mage is impossible to hit, meaning the fighter could be rolling 4d20+4857162 untyped damage, and it STILL won't matter.

Kids, this is why RAW is broken.

Ok, in flesh? Just put him inside the Prismatic Sphere and laugh some more. What's the fighter going to do? Punch through it?

[Teron]

Give the fighter 5% magic resistance per level.

What does that even mean? Spell resistance isn't percentage based, and 5 x level would be absurd by level 5 and yet utterly fail to help against stuff like solid fog and summoned/called monsters.

And even if you kill the wizard and not his astral projection, clone will kick in and he'll be back to life in a safe place, minus a level.

[Myshlaevsky]

What does that even mean? Spell resistance isn't percentage based, and 5 x level would be absurd by level 5 and yet utterly fail to help against stuff like solid fog and summoned/called monsters.

It was just a throwaway, jokey comment man. I wasn't seriously suggesting it as a fix to the most crucial imbalance in the 3.5e system.

[Milskidasith]

Generally, jokes are supposed to be funny or possess some kind of inherent cleverness.

[Myshlaevsky]

Generally, jokes are supposed to be funny or possess some kind of inherent cleverness.

Really, I feel that was unnecessary.

[TaintedLight]

It seems clear to me that we have firmly established how outmatched the fighter is in core, but nobody has yet put forth a situation in non-core. Is that because there isn't one even there?

[Thatguyoverther]

I would say that the fighter has a chance if the wizard doesn't know he's in a fight yet. Maybe sunder the wiz's spell component pouch? Break enough fingers to rule out somatic components? Grappling in general.

[Teron]

It seems clear to me that we have firmly established how outmatched the fighter is in core, but nobody has yet put forth a situation in non-core. Is that because there isn't one even there?

Outside of core, the fighter gets a few nifty toys that can give him a chance against fairly unoptimized wizards, while an optimized wizard can eliminate any remaining chance, however remote, that he might be defeated, largely thanks to celerity.

[quick_comment]

It doesnt matter if the fighter has an ability that says he always hit and kills the target.

The battle still goes: timestop, cloudkill, forcecage. Fighter wins initative? Contingency to dim door away. Fighter teleports out? Disjunction wipes his equipment, then you just do the above combo again.

And thats in core. Outside of core, wizards cant ever lose init.

[Frosty]

Actually, what he should do first is Quickened Dimensional Anchor before the Tmestop. now, no more worry about Teleport.

[FMArthur]

Well, in core, bastion of game balance it is, the wizard can obliterate the fighter in very many ways, and the fighter can sit back and take it, having no useful options of his own. Outside of core is where a fighter can become interesting and the wizard may have to spend extra spells eliminating new options the fighter may have to get around the most basic caster defenses.

[Mando Knight]

Grappling in general.

That would work if the wizard doesn't have Still Dimension Door prepared. Which is only a 5th level slot, so at 20th level, that's almost a given if the wizzy has the Still Spell feat and Conjuration.

[Voice of Reason]

Level 20 Fighter vs level 20 wizard? Well, there's not a whole lot you can do, but I can take some time to think about it and get back to you. Now, if we're talking level 21-22, then a well-prepared fighter could definately defeat the wizard (barring standard obsticles such as luck; initiative would be a critical factor).

[quick_comment]

That would work if the wizard doesn't have Still Dimension Door prepared. Which is only a 5th level slot, so at 20th level, that's almost a given if the wizzy has the Still Spell feat and Conjuration.

Dimension door has no somatic components, you dont need to still it anyway.


Voice of Reason, once you hit level 21, wizards are outright invincible to anything but the most powerful magic. Fighters at that point have no other purpose than shining the wizard's crystal ball.

[olentu]

That would work if the wizard doesn't have Still Dimension Door prepared. Which is only a 5th level slot, so at 20th level, that's almost a given if the wizzy has the Still Spell feat and Conjuration.

Dimension door is already verbal only.

[Voice of Reason]

Perhaps I should explain then: The wizard is indeed powerful at level 20, and becomes like unto a god at levels 21+ However, it's amazing to realize just how powerless they become when encased in an Antimagic Field. Sure, a simple Disjunction will fix that, but to cast it they have to be outside the field itself, and let me assure you that without the benefit of enchantments, transmutations, magic equipment, etc, there are plenty of ways for a fighter to lockdown a straight wizard; Large and In Charge, Knockdown, and grappling come to mind immediately. If the fighter can get the wizard inside his antimagic field, then 3/4 the battle is already over.

Getting an antimagic field on the fighter is also rather easy. The Draconomicon offers the Bulwark of Antimagic for about 28,000g which allows the wielder to use antimagic field 1/day.

Meanwhile, an intelligent magic item (preferably the fighter's weapon of choice) can be had, made with the special purpose to "slay all." For its special power, choose the ability to Dimension Door. Using it's power to get it's wielder within striking distance of it's enemies is quite clearly a valid use of the dedicated power of a "slay all" weapon. Therefore, the fighter teleports next to the wizard as a more or less free action, activates the Bulwark of Antimagic, and proceeds to batter the wizard into submission.

[Alejandro]

In a gladiatoral style match, no, not really. But if the fighter can trick the wizard, he could win, but it will not be a straight fight.

[quick_comment]

The wizard does not get caught in an AMF. Besides his contingencies, he just takes a 5ft step, casts invoke magic and dim doors out.

Not to mention, the fighter has tons of trouble flying in an AMF. If he has natural flight, he can only fly with a light load. If he has magical flight, he cant use it at all in an AMF. Good luck getting the wizard in it.

Furthermore, at level 21, the wizard just researches an epic ward against antimagic field. He can make a permanent ward against AMF for less than 10000 gp with just him and 7 other casters than can cast 9th level spells. And then he never has to worry about AMF ever again.

[Milskidasith]

Perhaps I should explain then: The wizard is indeed powerful at level 20, and becomes like unto a god at levels 21+ However, it's amazing to realize just how powerless they become when encased in an Antimagic Field. Sure, a simple Disjunction will fix that, but to cast it they have to be outside the field itself, and let me assure you that without the benefit of enchantments, transmutations, magic equipment, etc, there are plenty of ways for a fighter to lockdown a straight wizard; Large and In Charge, Knockdown, and grappling come to mind immediately. If the fighter can get the wizard inside his antimagic field, then 3/4 the battle is already over.

Getting an antimagic field on the fighter is also rather easy. The Draconomicon offers the Bulwark of Antimagic for about 28,000g which allows the wielder to use antimagic field 1/day.

Meanwhile, an intelligent magic item (preferably the fighter's weapon of choice) can be had, made with the special purpose to "slay all." For its special power, choose the ability to Dimension Door. Using it's power to get it's wielder within striking distance of it's enemies is quite clearly a valid use of the dedicated power of a "slay all" weapon. Therefore, the fighter teleports next to the wizard as a more or less free action, activates the Bulwark of Antimagic, and proceeds to batter the wizard into submission.

Epic ward against AMF at level 21. Contingency to cast Invoke Magic: Dimension Door at level 20.

You cannot stop a wizard with a trick as simple as "teleport next to him while you have an AMF up."

[quick_comment]

Also the ever popular shrunken giant cone hat.

[Korivan]

Tell your friend duels between different classes is arbituary and is a headache to whoever moderates the duel. I know this from experience, having a rouge try to hide around the battle field and stop the other person from metagaming is hard. Best to stick to same class or near enough for fairness.