What's broken in Complete Mage?

[Sholos]

Basically, I'm starting up a campaign, and one player has asked that Complete Mage be included in the allowable sources. Now, I'm pretty much going to allow all the Completes, but I was wondering if there was anything specific that I should be wary about. The campaign is starting at first level and going from there.

[Longcat]

If you're also going to allow Complete Champion, be wary of "Spontaneous Divination" as an entry method into "Ultimate Magus", a dual-casting CM PrC that combines spontaneous with prepared casting.

Other than that, Complete Mage is mostly fine, iirc.

[peacenlove]

Although complete mage has some strong choices (such as Abjurant champion), the only thing that needs care is the Lingering metamagic feat. But if your game is set on a high strength level and character level even that feat is fine.

[Saph]

Complete Mage is one of the better balanced 3.5 books out there. Lots of good spells and PrCs, but nothing I'd call broken.

I'd recommend against allowing Complete Champion, though, as it's notorious for having been very badly playtested (it was one of the last 3.5 books published, so the devs pretty much just shoved everything in that they had floating around and called it a day).

[Sinfire Titan]

Arcane Fusion and it's bigger brother. Those two break the action economy in half. With them, a well-designed spellcaster can get 5 spells off in one round and only pay for 2 of them.

[Longcat]

Arcane Fusion and it's bigger brother. Those two break the action economy in half. With them, a well-designed spellcaster can get 5 spells off in one round and only pay for 2 of them.

Aren't those Sorcerer-only spells? I mean, sorcerers are already seriously disadvantaged against wizards, and these spells offer a mechanical incentive to actually play one.

[valadil]

I'd be wary of Abjurant Champion. You should ask the player what parts of CM he was interested in playing.

[Malacode]

A spell known spent on greater/arcane fusion is a spell known not spent on another, probably better, spell. Just think about the other options out there. Getting extra spells out in a round may sound rather attractive, but there are better ways to do it (Arcane spellsurge for one), and I'd rather have the extra versatility. Comp.Mage is pretty well balanced, IMHO.

[Mushroom Ninja]

I'd be wary of Abjurant Champion.

I actually thought Abjurant Champion was pretty well balanced.

[mikej]

I have to agree with the earlier posters. Complete Mage is fairly well balanced. Complete Divine & Complete Champion are the ones you need to look out for.

[Kurald Galain]

If you're also going to allow Complete Champion, be wary of "Spontaneous Divination" as an entry method into "Ultimate Magus",

Be wary of "Spontaneous Divination" period. It basically gives all prepared casters that take it spontaneous access to every divination spell, as if wizards needed the boost.

I actually thought Abjurant Champion was pretty well balanced.

Although it is not nearly as bad as Incantatrix or IO7V, it seems nevertheless a common choice on charop boards, so you may want to keep an eye out.

[Gnorman]

Although it is not nearly as bad as Incantatrix or IO7V, it seems nevertheless a common choice on charop boards, so you may want to keep an eye out.

It is the best gish PrC ever printed, but you're still... playing a gish. It becomes a little ridiculous when you realize that elves (or any race with a racial martial weapon proficiency) qualify basically for free (bah, like they need the boost).

[Cyclocone]

A spell known spent on greater/arcane fusion is a spell known not spent on another, probably better, spell. Just think about the other options out there. Getting extra spells out in a round may sound rather attractive, but there are better ways to do it (Arcane spellsurge for one), and I'd rather have the extra versatility. Comp.Mage is pretty well balanced, IMHO.

Yahh... except you could use both arcane spell surge and greater arcane fusion. By your logic, time stop isn't worth taking either.

Aren't those Sorcerer-only spells? I mean, sorcerers are already seriously disadvantaged against wizards, and these spells offer a mechanical incentive to actually play one.

+1. The sorc deserved a little loving.
As long as you don't allow something like rogue 2/focused specialist diviner 5/recaster 3/magelord 7/recaster 2/magelord 1 so the wizard can have wings of cover and arcane spell surge, the sorc-only spells are a decent idea.
Even if they aren't exactly the obvious way of making the sorc catch up.
And even if they make the monk look even more gimped.

Well, you can't spell butt monkey without monk.

[mcl01]

Spontaneous Divination was errata'd to only apply for divination spells you know.

[Doc Roc]

It's a common choice because it's full BAB, full casting with solid abilities and limited pre-reqs. One of the few examples of a well-designed prestige class. Here are a few of the repeatable problems I've run into:

Dragonsblood Pool: Ban-worthy.
Residual Metamagic: Very-very powerful in many builds.
Arcane Fusion: AF is an incredible spell, one of the best in print. Sorcerers actually sort of need it.

Complete champion isn't that bad, really, and offers up a lot of fun options. Just make sure one of those options isn't Ring of The Beast and you should be mostly okay.

Also: The Faith point system is horrible.

[Mushroom Ninja]

It is the best gish PrC ever printed, but you're still... playing a gish.

Exactly. AC is stronger than the other gish PrCs, but the other gish PrCs are somewhat underpowered.

[Ernir]

Complete Mage is one of the better balanced 3.5 books out there. Lots of good spells and PrCs, but nothing I'd call broken.

I agree with this.

Also, I'd be thrilled if one of my arcane caster players went into Abjurant Champion. It would mean they intend to spend their resources (most importantly: their actions) on sometimes whacking things with sticks, instead of playing god like everyone else.
Abjurant Champion is a good way to make a competent gish. As far as can I see, it is not a good way to break the game.



Arcane Fusion and its big brother have great potential if used right. I suggest you look at those, and see whether you care for that kind of power in your game.

EDIT: Oh, and yes... forgot that's where Dragonsblood Pool lies. Nasty thing. Listen to Tidesinger. 0_o

[Sinfire Titan]

Aren't those Sorcerer-only spells? I mean, sorcerers are already seriously disadvantaged against wizards, and these spells offer a mechanical incentive to actually play one.

Recaster, Wyrm Wizard, Spell to Power Erudite, there's a myriad of ways to get Arcane Fusion without being a Sorcerer. That's why it's broken, because the Devs didn't take those into account when they made the spell.

[Fax Celestis]

Recaster, Wyrm Wizard, Spell to Power Erudite, there's a myriad of ways to get Arcane Fusion without being a Sorcerer. That's why it's broken, because the Devs didn't take those into account when they made the spell.

...Lyric Thaumaturge...

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Complete Mage is one of the better balanced 3.5 books out there. Lots of good spells and PrCs, but nothing I'd call broken.

I'd recommend against allowing Complete Champion, though, as it's notorious for having been very badly playtested (it was one of the last 3.5 books published, so the devs pretty much just shoved everything in that they had floating around and called it a day).

Champ is far worse than Divine. Champ includes good, useful things like Devotion feats. Divine includes ways of making Clerics better than Planar Shepherds. Champ really doesn't have much broken in it.

[Doc Roc]

Recaster, Wyrm Wizard, Spell to Power Erudite, there's a myriad of ways to get Arcane Fusion without being a Sorcerer. That's why it's broken, because the Devs didn't take those into account when they made the spell.

If your GM allows spell to power erudite, just turn and start running.

It won't save you, but it will increase the number of precious seconds you have left.

[Sinfire Titan]

If your GM allows spell to power erudite, just turn and start running.

It won't save you, but it will increase the number of precious seconds you have left.

Well, that is a given.

[archerpwr]

Recaster, Wyrm Wizard, Spell to Power Erudite, there's a myriad of ways to get Arcane Fusion without being a Sorcerer. That's why it's broken, because the Devs didn't take those into account when they made the spell.

Could you explain to me why casting a fourth level spell and a seventh level spell is notably more powerful than simply casting an eighth level spell? The lower level version of arcane version isn't even worth talking about since first level spells are trash at level 9+ anyways. I mean, why would I ever cast finger of death+enervation over just tossing out mass charm monster to end the combat?

I mean, there are niche cases where greater arcane fusion is handy to have around (celerity), but *most* of those niche cases require spells that are problematic on their own and are no real selling point of 4th level effect+7th level effect being notably more potent than 8th level effect.

In math terms now:
In D&D, two CR X creatures are supposed to be worth a single CR X+2 creature. This means that you are literally supposed to double in power every two levels. As such, this means that your new level of spells is on average supposed to be literally twice as powerful as the spells you had two levels ago.

I mean, it can be a handy spell to have (toss out a dispel magic to drop a debuff off your ally+cast an offensive spell), but it is by no means anything to get all that excited about.

Arcane Spellsurge (Dragon Magic) on the other hand is something to get totally excited about. Full round spell (there are some out there for wizards; not just sorcerers with metamagic)+standard action spell+spells from familiar (via imbue familiar with spell ability) is a fantastic drop point.

But really, arcane fusion is kinda meh. I've never really found a reason to ever cast it instead of just ending combat with a higher level effect. It's good to have (like the dispel magic situation), but nothing that actually helps offence.

Edit: And erudite is not really better than sorcerer even with spell to power. Look at the mechanic for learning discipline powers (what spell to power replaces) and unique powers per day. The class is basically unplayable before 11th level and even then isn't as good as a core wizard.

[Prime32]

Could you explain to me why casting a fourth level spell and a seventh level spell is notably more powerful than simply casting an eighth level spell? The lower level version of arcane version isn't even worth talking about since first level spells are trash at level 9+ anyways. I mean, why would I ever cast finger of death+enervation over just tossing out mass charm monster to end the combat?

For a start, you can apply metamagic feats to both component spells at once.

[quick_comment]

Because a 7th level SoD plus a 4th level SoD is more likely to work than an 8th level SoD.

As for regular arcane fusion, its still pretty great. Its breaking the action economy. Fly + wings of swift flight in one action. Greater Mage Armor + Shield. True Strike + Enervation. Ray of Enfeeblement + Ray of escalating enfeeblement.

[Fax Celestis]

Because a 7th level SoD plus a 4th level SoD is more likely to work than an 8th level SoD.

As for regular arcane fusion, its still pretty great. Its breaking the action economy. Fly + wings of swift flight in one action. Greater Mage Armor + Shield. True Strike + Enervation. Ray of Enfeeblement + Ray of escalating enfeeblement.

Assay Spell Resistance + Some SR: Yes spell.

[quick_comment]

Assay Spell Resistance + Some SR: Yes spell.

You could even do
[Swift] Assay Resistance
[Std] Arcane Fusion: True Casting + SR: Yes spell.

This gives you +20 on your bonus to beat SR. Sure, few things have SR that high, but they exist. (Rakshasa's have SR 27+class level. A level 20 rakshasha would have SR 40)

[archerpwr]

For a start, you can apply metamagic feats to both component spells at once.

Woohoo? Metamagic is worse than casting a higher level spell aside from a few specific builds (which are still mostly worse than just casting SoDs anyways).

Because a 7th level SoD plus a 4th level SoD is more likely to work than an 8th level SoD.

As for regular arcane fusion, its still pretty great. Its breaking the action economy. Fly + wings of swift flight in one action. Greater Mage Armor + Shield. True Strike + Enervation. Ray of Enfeeblement + Ray of escalating enfeeblement.

You do realize that I specifically called out mass charm monster (CL in creatures) as opposed to finger of death (one creature), right? The only fourth level SoD is phantasmal killer. That is not only mind effecting, but also a fear effect. Oh, it also allows two saves.

I mean, did you even read what I wrote? I specifically named spells in advance that invalidate this whole line of argument.

Mass Charm Monster:
Will save for 15 creatures or lose the combat. (against one creature you just cast Otto's irrisistable dance or maze to simply win)

Finger of death+phantasmal killer:
Save at 1 point lower vs death and 2 saves at 4 points lower vs death against a single creature.

So, for single target we've got "No save. Lose." against single targets and "all of y'all make a will save at my highest DC or join my team" or "save or lose" against a single target.

Do you see how unimpressive this is as an option offensively?

As for the other stuff, I already addressed that as well. Buffing in combat is not winning in combat. It's drawing out combat. At the point where you are worrying about actions you shouldn't be casting fly. You should be casting solid fog so the enemy *loses*.
{scrubbed}

[Voice of Reason]

The reason that people warn again "Arcane Fusion" and "Greater Arcane Fusion" is because it allows two spells to be cast for the price of one, although they are admittedly low-level spells. I don't have my book on me, but I believe that they both take a full-round action, although this can be reduced to a standard action through a variety of means. Once they're standard action casts, you can start chain them together:

1) Cast Greater Arcane Fusion as a standard action. Cast a 7th and 4th level spell.
2a) Use your 4th level spell on whatever you want.
2b) Use your seventh level spell to cast Arcane Fusion (now a standard action). Gain a 4th and 1st level spell to cast.
3a) Use your level one spell on whatever you want to cast; small self-buffs work well, like shield.
3b) Use you 4th level spell on whatever you want.

Now you're getting three spells for the price of one. If using metamagic tricks, you can start throwing out a Quickened Greater Arcane Fusion every round for 6 spells per round, and that's without chain spell or repeat spell. That's a lot of spells. The thing to keep in mind, of course, is that instead of your 8th-level spell, you're casting 2 4th and a 1st level spell.

Whether or not the sorcerer could use the buff, I'm not to say; personally, I have always favored sorcerer over wizard.

I don't consider Abjurant Chamion game-breaking, although I will admit the existance of "you can't hit me" optimized tanks with this prestige class at their core (usually alongside with a level or two of monk for the wis bonus).

One last thing to be aware of, though, is reserve feats. To be frank, they don't break the game, and really aren't even all that optimized. The only reason I bring it up is because when you compare the damage of some of the reserve feats (fiery burst) the damage scales just as quickly as a Warlock's eldritch blast, or a Dragonfire Adept's breath weapon, which makes those classes a lot less apealing when you could be casting third-level spells instead of lesser invocations.

[quick_comment]

Have you ever even read mass charm monster? You can affect up two twice your caster level in HD total. So your level 15 wizard is charming what, a gaggle of geese?

As for no save, lose, lol. Irresitable dance is a touch spell, works only against living targets, and is mind affecting and a compulsion. Maze doesnt make them lose, it gives the creature 10 minutes to buff itself.