[3.5] Looking for input on some character builds

[EnnPeeCee]

I've been working on optimizing a bunch of character ideas I've had, and just wanted to discuss them a little, get some input on whether or not what I'm doing is the right direction, and find out what I can do to do better.

A few notes on what I'm doing and using:
- Most of these characters are designed to not only be mechanically strong, but also an interesting character to play with an interesting story. If you make a suggestion that changes the entire nature of a character, more than likely I'll be less than receptive.
- I usually play only humanoid type characters, so no suggesting dragons to play as. =)
- I realize that "wizards can always do it better", and that's great. But if I'm building a non-wizard character, I would appreciate it if wizard spells were not suggested as alternatives to what I'm already doing.
- I don't really like the idea of Psionics, so I don't use them (nor does the group I play with), so please avoid.
- Character traits are ok, so long as they're not a requirement for the character.
- Most of these characters are intended to be played from level 1 to level 20, so large level adjustments and templates are difficult to deal with. Feel free to suggest them, but realize that I most likely won't use them.
- My group does not use Tome of Battle or any specific setting books, so I avoid using them.
- No Dragon Magazine please.
- I prefer to keep characters simple, but I realize that isn't possible with some of the things I want to do.
- Out of my group, I am one of the only ones that really tries to optimize characters, so it isn't essential that these match up in power with truly optimized characters. I have lots of leeway.

That shouldn't be too restrictive, I just thought I'd lay that out before I got frustrated with suggestions that I don't want to use. Anyway, on to the characters.

#1 Orc Body Builder
My intent with this is to make a barbarian type character as strong as I possibly can and be a legitimate melee threat.
What I've come up with:
Race: Desert Orc (for bonus endurance and no light sensitivity early on)
Classes: Barbarian 1 / Duskblade 1 / Orc Paragon 3 / Dragon Disciple 10 / Duskblade +1 / Barbarian +4 (Bar5/Dusk2/OrcP3/DrD10)
Feat ideas: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Brutal Throw, Power Throw, Hurling Charge, Leap Attack, Monkey Grip, Improved Sunder, Combat Brute, Powerful Charge, Greater Powerful Charge, Flay, Terrifying Warrior, Mage Slayer
Current Problems: Low reflex save, somewhat low AC, choose feats, choose weapon

#2 Halfling Snipe&Hide
I really like the level 10 halfling rogue sub level from RotW which allows hiding again after attacking from hiding at a -10 instead of a -20. I want to try to maximize the use of this ability. I decided upon using a crossbow, feel free to dissuade me.
What I've come up with:
Race: Desert Halfling (for bonus to hide)
Classes: Rogue 10 (using all halfling sub levels)
Feat ideas: Rapid Reload, Weapon Focus (xbow), Crossbow Sniper, Able Sniper, Point Blank Shot, Woodland Archer, Sharp Shooting, Cunning Evasion, Improved Diversion
Current Problems: need more levels, choose feats

#3 Dwarf Tank
I want to make a Dwarven Defender tank. This is a character that's whole intent is to provide protection to his allies. I also intend to have him ride a war-rhino, however this is not his intent (I do not want to design him to be a pure mounted combatant).
What I've come up with:
Race: Gold Dwarf (plan on using CHA based stuff)
Classes: Paladin 3 / Knight 17 / Dwarven Defender 10
Feat ideas: Armor Optimization, Dwarven Armor Proficiency, Tower Shield Proficiency, Shield Specialization, Dodge, Endurance, Toughness
Current Problems: choose feats, search for more feats

#4 Kobold Runnaway
My idea here is to make a kobold that aggravates enemies and peppers them with ranged weapons to initiate a chase, which leads them into traps that were previously set.
What I've come up with:
Race: Desert Kobold (haha, I seem to like desert races don't I?)
Classes: Scout 1 / Ranger (UA Speed+ Variant) 1 / Scout +3 / Combat Trapsmith 5 / Scout +10 (Sct14/Rng1/CmTr5)
Feat ideas: Spring Attack, Dash, Listen to This, Raptor School, Elusive Target, Hinder
Current Problems: seems vulnerable to me, not sure trapsmith is a worthwhile class

#5 Super Saves Man
This is a character that through high saving throws and abilities like evasion and mettle is highly resistant to just about everything.
What I've come up with:
Race: Halfling (for +1 to saves)
Classes: Survivor 5 / Paladin 2 / Pious Templar 1 / Monk x / Favored Soul x (still need to decide what and in which order)
Feat ideas: Dive for Cover, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes
Current Problems: picking classes (and alignment), choosing feats
Question on this: is the bonus from the Paladin's Divine Grace untyped? If so, does that mean the bonus from Divine Grace stacks with Dark Blessing from Blackguard?

#6 Spinter
This began with me wondering how fast I could get a character's running movement speed. I have it pretty high up there, but now I need to find something to do with it. One thought of mine is the idea that you could run up to, attack, and run out of range of most melee enemies each turn.
What I've come up with:
Race: Catfolk
Classes: Barbarian 1 / Berserk 1 / Monk 18
Feat ideas: Dash, Run, Spring Attack
Other: Quick Trait, Shadow Creature Template
Current Problems: is a fairly useless character at the moment

#7 Backline Party Buff
In large parties, I thought it would make an interesting change to play a character that buffs allies, rather than doing anything for itself. I'm not sure if this would have any serious effect though.
What I've come up with:
Class ideas: Marshal / Dragon Shaman / Bard / Paladin 3 / Evangelist / War Priest / Outcast Champion / [Bard PrCs]
Current Problems: I have no direction on what is useful or not for providing party-wide buffs

#7 Familiar Master
I thought it would be cool to have a wizard character that focuses on buffing it's familiar to act as a personal tank. As a touch of characterization, I came up with the idea of a dwarf wizard with an earth elemental familiar.
What I've come up with:
Race: Dwarf
Classes: Wizard / Earth Dreamer
Feat ideas: Improved Familiar, Bonded Familiar, Combat Familiar, Lurking Familiar, Earth Sense
Current Problems: Not sure if it would be worth playing instead of a standard caster

#8 Spiked Chain AoO
I know this has been done a lot, but I've never seen any builds with full progression, only a few levels. I understand how to get it started and working, but aren't sure where to take it after that. Just to explain, its a fighter that takes advantage of the reach in a spiked chain to make attacks of opportunities to everything that moves near him.
What I've come up with:
Feat ideas: Combat Reflexes, Improved Combat Reflexes, Deft Opportunist
Current Problems: Need to figure out full progression
Also on this one, I'll likely make two characters with this: one large character, and one medium

#9 Belly Flopper
I asked about this in another thread and was told that it's been designed before. This is a character that somehow gets above it's enemies and falls on them, using falling object rules to do damage.
What I've come up with:
Current Problems: No idea where to start, other than picking a heavy race

#10 Ultimate Companion
Through Arcane Heirophant, you can combine your familiar with your animal companion, and with Devoted Tracker, combine your animal companion with your paladin mount. I'm wondering if there is any use to doing both of these to make a super-companion.
What I've come up with:
Class ideas: Paladin / Ranger / Wizard / Arcane Heirophant
Feat ideas: Devoted Tracker
Current Problems: Wondering if this is just an overly complex way to make a useless character

#11 Ankle Biter
I've been thinking about feats like Confound the Big Folk, and how they could be used to make an effective, and interesting character. Basically, someone who stands under you and stabs your groin over and over.
What I've come up with:
Class ideas: Rogue / Knight 3 / Thug Fighter (sneak attack var.)
Feat ideas: Underfoot Fighting, Confound the Big Folk, Giantbane, Arterial Strike, Disemboweling Strike, Staggering Strike
Current Problems: Being able to become tiny, being able to reach while tiny and not under opponent, whether to take rogue or thug levels

[AslanCross]

Shame you're not using ToB, but oh well.

Off-the-cuff comments for builds #1 and #3:

#1: Cleave and Great Cleave are highly situational feats. You're going to have to make sure you're surrounded by enemies and can actually kill them each in one swing. Unless you do the Bag of Rats trick (if your DM actually lets you do that), those feats are just going to take up space. Also, I don't know why you're taking Brutal Throw and Power Throw if you're not making a dedicated throwing build.

Monkey Grip isn't going to make you deal much more damage. You miss more due to the attack penalty, and you don't get much more in the way of average damage. If you really want an enormous weapon, take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Fullblade). The Fullblade is basically an ogre-sized bastard sword. Still not much better in terms of damage, but at least you aren't penalized.

Since you have Leap Attack anyway, get Improved Bull Rush in and get Shock Trooper. That combo is pretty much the best way to get high damage output on melee attacks without Tome of Battle.

Powerful Charge is only any good if you're large and charge often. It's best on mounted lance builds.


#3: The DD's biggest flaw is that it sacrifices mobility too much. I'd stick to Knight levels instead of taking DD. The Knight does a better job of keeping enemies from attacking allies. Unless the DD actually blocks the way with his body, he won't really keep monsters from reaching the softer characters behind him.

EDIT: Adding in #2 as well. I love sniper builds. Take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Great Crossbow). Even for a small-sized character, that's 2d6 base damage. Taking a level of Assassin for the Spell Compendium spell Sniper's Shot gives you unlimited range on your next sneak attack.

I once harried my players with a Greenspawn Sneak sniper who could sneak attack from over 400 feet away. :D

[oxinabox]

#1 Orc Body Builder
Have you considered an Insanely Large Weapon build? I hate them myself but they do work well.
Exotic Weapon proficiency: Fullblade (arms and equipment guide: 2d8 19-20/x2
Strong arm bracers: allows you to wield a weapon one size catagory larger (MiC) 6000gp (i think).
Permanency enlarge, (cast be the highest lvl caster you can find). (110*caster lvl gp)
Monkey grip (you had that already)
You are now weilding a Gargantuan weapon, 6d8 damage.
Now, if you when Goliath from Races of stone: +4 Strength, –2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution +1 LA. Medium size.
Has powerful build, Weild weapons of one size catagory larger (I wish this didn't stack with Strong aarm braces, but IIRC it does... )
You now wielding Colossal weapon: 8d8 damage?


I hate that build so much.
It's disgusting.
But the fullblade is a great weapon, (literally).
only other weopons that do 2d8 is the great crossbow ( i think there another but it slips my mind)
(the only other thing i can find that does 2d8 damage.

Actually
#2 Halfling Snipe&Hide
great crossbow 2d8. (2d6 is small)
Gnome crossbow sights.
from arms and equipment: treat things that are 2 range increments away as being 1 ranged increment away. requires full round action (IIRC)

EDIT: I see full blade nac Great crossbow have already been mentioned

[oxinabox]

#9 Belly Flopper
I asked about this in another thread and was told that it's been designed before. This is a character that somehow gets above it's enemies and falls on them, using falling object rules to do damage.
What I've come up with:
Current Problems: No idea where to start, other than picking a heavy race

Don't DO it, it's not Cool. there aren't rules for it.
It creates a real Headach for the DM
What ever you do, don't use the rules to create a scaled verson of the Boots of Landing from MiC.


#7 Backline Party Buff
I like this build. Alot, have you bardic music with a marcking drum, or a battle horn. or maybe the DM will let you train the party in battle chant?
I came very close to using it myself, until I decided that it would be too annoying for everyone too keep track of all the buffs i had on them.

[EnnPeeCee]

Ooooh, fullblade. I forgot about that. I was just going to use a greatsword or scythe or something. The feats that I have up there are really just ones that I saw and said to myself "that could be useful for this character". I figured it would be nice for the orc to be able to throw things as well as hit things, but there probably won't be enough feats for that anyway.

Hmm, no Dwarven Defender saddens me. I've always liked that class.

For the sniper build, if I remember correctly, hiding after sniping requires a movement action to do, which is why I planned on using a light crossbow with rapid reload. I could reload, fire, and hide every turn.

Aww, belly flopper won't work? The DMG has rules for falling objects striking creatures, do those not apply?

[oxinabox]

Aww, belly flopper won't work? The DMG has rules for falling objects striking creatures, do those not apply?

There are no rules for aiming yourself.
Falling is a free action, and one you fall you have no control until you stop falling, (a full round action IIRC)

[PinkysBrain]

Heroes of Battle has rules for attacking with falling objects. Ranged attack to hit AC5 with -4 for using an improvised weapon, the target gets a reflex save DC15 to negate.

[EnnPeeCee]

Ah, well I guess it wouldn't really be effective then. Oh well.

[Eldariel]

Orcish Bodybuilder:
I suggest Orc Paragon 3/Stoneblessed: Goliath 3/Barbarian 1 (taking Mountain Rage ACF you now qualify for thanks to Stoneblessed)/War Hulk 10/Frenzied Berserker 3

Basically, Mountain Rage makes you Large and War Hulk requires you to get Large and gives you +2 Str every level (no BAB tho). Otherwise you get +6 Str from Mountain Rage (+4 normal, +2 size from the Mountain-part), +6 from Frenzy, +2 from Orc Paragon and that's it. It's all perfectly mundane: When not Raging, you're looking at Str 22 base + 2 Paragon + 5 levels + 5 inherent + 20 War Hulk (assuming your DM lets you apply it while not Large).

When Raging, you get +6 Rage, +2 more if you have Reckless Rage and +6 more from Frenzy. This gives you 54 base strength being able to add up 14 more to it for 68. If you have magical boost from Belt of Giant Strength +6, you reach 74. You may run into some trouble in weight lifting competitions though as you'll be in battle frenzy so you kill everyone else in there. But you'll be strong. Hell, toss in Greater Titan Bloodline to gain the ability "Wield Oversized Weapon" which as written allows you to wield a Gargantuan Warhammer. It also obviously increases your strength by one point (power of blood is not to be underestimated), which can be a great benefit over the build. BAB 9 but hey, you're a weightlifter, not a warrior. Of course, you can still trash things.

[EnnPeeCee]

Hmm, I like the concept of Mountain Rage, but I'm not sure that everyone would agree on being able to take War Hulk from that. Is there any other way to increase in size aside from just getting a permanent enlarge person on you?

Actually, now that I think about it, adventures would be a lot more difficult being a large character. I think that would create more difficulties than the bonus strength is worth.

I really like War Hulk, but the large creature req. is just too difficult to deal with.

[EnnPeeCee]

So I was thinking on my dwarf tank, since people don't seem to think Defender is a good class to take, what makes 10 levels in Knight better than 10 levels in Defender? Just more uses of knight's challenge?

[PinkysBrain]

A dwarven doorstop is only useful if there is a hole to plug with him.

Knight's challenge DC increases with class levels ... so it's not a very good class to multiclass.

[rezplz]

If you had a large character, it would be like trying to go into dungeons when you were playing that centaur in runequest.

"The only way up is a ladder. Have fun."

But I guess you could always have a caster with reduce person ready if necessary.

[EnnPeeCee]

A dwarven doorstop is only useful if there is a hole to plug with him.

Knight's challenge DC increases with class levels ... so it's not a very good class to multiclass.

Ah, I guess I missed reading that.

Maaaan I really like Dwarven Defender...
Oh well, I guess there are much better alternatives. I'll just make a DD in spirit.
So then comes my next idea, combine the dwarf tank with the spiked chain fighter. Good idea?

[EnnPeeCee]

If you had a large character, it would be like trying to go into dungeons when you were playing that centaur in runequest.

"The only way up is a ladder. Have fun."

But I guess you could always have a caster with reduce person ready if necessary.

Nooo the ladders....
It'd also make dealing with people in town interesting. And sleeping at an inn. =P

[rezplz]

Meh we usually skip most of those trivialities anyway ;P

But yeah, if the fluff is what you like about DD then it should be easy to make a knight and put in the DD fluff. If you expect your enemies to come to you with your knightly skillz, though, and you want to focus on tanking, then spiked chain wouldn't be as good. Because you might want a shield.

[PinkysBrain]

That's what the animated shield is for.

[rezplz]

Animated shields are silly ;P

[EnnPeeCee]

Hmm, is spiked chain the only weapon that has reach and threatens adjacent? I like the animated shield idea, but that would be difficult to have at lower levels.

Would a small sized, one handed spiked chain still have reach?

[PinkysBrain]

Kusari-Gama page 145 of the DMG.

[Grey Knight]

Question on this: is the bonus from the Paladin's Divine Grace untyped? If so, does that mean the bonus from Divine Grace stacks with Dark Blessing from Blackguard?

Regardless of game mechanics, trying to "stack" any of a Paladin's divine powers with the dark powers of a Blackguard is pretty out there... If you really want to take a thunderbolt to the head, insulting the party wizard is probably a quicker and easier way of going about it. If you're planning on roleplaying either class, you might want to get a better handle on them first.

Sorry, that's the only useful information I've got; I don't really understand "build optimisation".

[EnnPeeCee]

Regardless of game mechanics, trying to "stack" any of a Paladin's divine powers with the dark powers of a Blackguard is pretty out there... If you really want to take a thunderbolt to the head, insulting the party wizard is probably a quicker and easier way of going about it. If you're planning on roleplaying either class, you might want to get a better handle on them first.

Sorry, that's the only useful information I've got; I don't really understand "build optimisation".

I fully understand paladins and blackguards. The thing is, there are evil paladin variants, which would compliment a blackguard perfectly. I was just wondering if that would be possible.

[EnnPeeCee]

Kusari-Gama page 145 of the DMG.

So there is, although statistically its exactly the same.
I'm really looking for a one handed spiked chain type thing, but I'm guessing that's just wishful thinking.

[AslanCross]

Ah, I guess I missed reading that.

Maaaan I really like Dwarven Defender...
Oh well, I guess there are much better alternatives.

The Deepstone Sentinel from Tome of Battle is a good option, as it pretty much is the ToB version of the DD. If you guys decide to open up to ToB, it's a solid option.

Putting the spiked chain fighter together with the dwarf tank does kind of work---instead of the dwarf just acting like a doorstop, you instead have him actively hindering the movement of enemies.

So there is, although statistically its exactly the same.
I'm really looking for a one handed spiked chain type thing, but I'm guessing that's just wishful thinking.

The Cavestalker PrC from Drow of the Underdark allows one-handed Spiked Chain use, but really, two-handed weapons are so good that it's better to just wield it two-handed. (You deal more damage on the AOOs you make when the other guy gets up.)

[Grey Knight]

I fully understand paladins and blackguards. The thing is, there are evil paladin variants, which would compliment a blackguard perfectly. I was just wondering if that would be possible.

Ah, you mean the "antipaladins" of slaughter/tyranny from Unearthed Arcana? That makes more sense, then. I hadn't realised they kept the name "divine grace" for the two antipaladin ones in there, most curious. I believe those two are intended as base-class replacements for Blackguard, and aren't intended to be compatible with it in the same character. "Dark blessing" is a fairly simple case of a rose by another name.

(personally I prefer equalising Pal/Blk by making Paladin a prestige class rather than base-class-ifying the Blackguard, but whatever floats your boat!)

[Kaiyanwang]

Kusari-Gama page 145 of the DMG.

Or simply reach weapon + armor spikes.

Just to think about a combo reach + shield, In secrets of sarlona there is the spinning sword. D6, 19-20 /x2, reach and you can strike nearby opponents. One hand.

But you cannot make trip attack with it. And THIS, matters. A lot.

[EnnPeeCee]

Hmm, yeah extra damage would be nice. I'm just thinking about the stats for this guy. Need high str for damage at being able to hit, dex for getting more AoO, con for health, and cha for knight stuff. I never like using int as a dump stat, so that leaves me with only 1 stat to be low, the rest should be high. I feel like I'm trying to get this guy to do too many things.

[Cieyrin]

\If you really want an enormous weapon, take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Fullblade). The Fullblade is basically an ogre-sized bastard sword. Still not much better in terms of damage, but at least you aren't penalized.

Pff, Fullblade. Get a real big weapon and go with a Suglin. Same Damage and Reach, though you need Suglin Mastery to not use a full round action to swing the oversized bastard. Plus it kinda fits the whole Orc Savage better than Fullblade does. We need more Suglin builds, anyways. Suglin's from Frostburn, if you weren't aware, also.

[woodenbandman]

An excellent build I have for your Sprinter idea is Stalwart Battle Sorceror X, Abjurant Champion5, Barbarian1. Pick up the Quick trait, might want to go with something with a 40ft move speed. At level 4 I am playing as a Stalwart Battle Sorceror 4, and I can move 70ft/round (spells known are expeditious retreat and jump) and in one more level I'll be able to take 10 and jump 60 feet horizontally, from standing perfectly still. Plus you can pick up all kinds of spells that make you generally useful rather than lame. My feats of choice are, using flaws, battle jump, Leap of the Heavens, Power Attack, and... UP THE WALLS to run on the ceiling. Race is Kalashtar, but any psionic race, or human with Wild Talent works. You don't really even need Up the Walls, you could replace it by learning the Spider Climb spell.

For Orc Body Builder, here's a suggestion: Gray Orc (wisdom bonus), Psychic Warrior (Expansion is win).

EDIT: as far as large weapons go, the only real manly thing to do in this situation is to be BRUCE, anthropomorphic Huge Shark Psychic Warrior 13, whom, when enlarged to gargantuan size, wields the anchor of his pirate ship as a weapon.

As for Super Saver, I have done this build as well. I suggest Monk2/Hexblade3 (or Witch Slayer2, or Pious Templar1). All of these have their own baggage, and I also suggest any of the paladin variant classes, to match. Hexblade/Paladin of Tyranny combo well, as does normal paladin/witch slayer, or any one of those with Pious Templar.

The result is, at level 7 or so, you get +2x your charisma modifier to all saves, evasion, and mettle, plus excellent base saves, so you're pretty much invincible. You also have decent BAB and HD, and you're pretty much set for any melee build you could want, I suggest you focus on the Hexblade aspect or maybe go into binder a bit and eventually get the ability to bind Focalor and Chupoclops. Again, carries baggage, but if you want to be a bad guy, this works wonderfully. You can even worship Tenebrous.

[Doc Roc]

Don't DO it, it's not Cool. there aren't rules for it.
It creates a real Headach for the DM
What ever you do, don't use the rules to create a scaled verson of the Boots of Landing from MiC.

There are plenty of rules for it, actually. It's fine. There's a character in the Test of Spite who does it. Perhaps you'd like to take a look at some of the many fine optimized builds the ToS has generated? Many are close to what you are after.