ToB Prestige Classes Question

[Mongoose87]

The base classes in the ToB get to switch out their old maneuvers for new ones at even numbered levels. Does this continue in prestige classes?

[quick_comment]

No. If you want to swap maneuvers, you need to take levels in the base class and/or use a liberal interpretation of psychic reformatiojn

[ColdSepp]

Also note that not all PrCs in Tome of Battle advance Initiator Level at the same rate as the base classes. Each one needs to be read carefully to see exactly what it does.

[quick_comment]

Bloodstorm blade should advance initiator level and grant Iron Heart and Stone Dragon maneuvers.

[Fax Celestis]

Bloodstorm blade should advance initiator level and grant Iron Heart and Stone Dragon maneuvers.

No, it shouldn't. It's powerful enough already.

[ColdSepp]

No, it shouldn't. It's powerful enough already.

I agree. It's not really a Martial PrC, flavor wise. IMO, anyway. And it is quite strong.

[The Glyphstone]

I dunno, having it grant a new maneuver at, say, levels 5 and 10 might actually encourage people to do something other than FighterX/WarbladeY/Bloodstorm Blade 4, picking up some of those cool but not-quite-mechanically superior abilities from the higher levels of the class.

[Frosty]

Well, technically, the classl grants 3 Fighter Bonus Feats, which CAN be used to grab Martial Study...so there's your progression I guess.

[Sinfire Titan]

No, it shouldn't. It's powerful enough already.

No it isn't! It's not even equal to the base class used to enter it. It's considered a 2-level Dip, at most. If it progressed IL and gave maneuvers, then it would be a +2 PrC. Otherwise, it sucks.

[Fax Celestis]

No it isn't! It's not even equal to the base class used to enter it. It's considered a 2-level Dip, at most. If it progressed IL and gave maneuvers, then it would be a +2 PrC. Otherwise, it sucks.

..."either it has to be the next Iot7FV or it sucks" is a horrible way to look at prestige classes.

[Frosty]

No it isn't! It's not even equal to the base class used to enter it. It's considered a 2-level Dip, at most. If it progressed IL and gave maneuvers, then it would be a +2 PrC. Otherwise, it sucks.

It...doesn't suck in certain specialized thrower build. but as a generic PrC, yea, it's not worth it without IL and maneuver progression.

[ColdSepp]

It...doesn't suck in certain specialized thrower build. but as a generic PrC, yea, it's not worth it without IL and maneuver progression.

Why would you go into it if you didn't want to be a specialized thrower? That's the whole point of the class.

[Sinfire Titan]

..."either it has to be the next Iot7FV or it sucks" is a horrible way to look at prestige classes.

Um, no? There's a difference in those tiers, pal. Just because the class is +2 doesn't mean it's overpowered, it just means taking levels in that class is automatic for anyone playing the assumed entry.

True, most of the overpowered PrCs are in that tier, but I highly doubt the Moonspeaker or Legendary Captain or Soulbow are on par with the Incanatrix in terms of power or broken. The overpowered ones are on that tier because they are the most powerful PrCs in the game, and it makes sense for them to be in the highest tier.

[Fax Celestis]

Um, no? There's a difference in those tiers, pal. Just because the class is +2 doesn't mean it's overpowered, it just means taking levels in that class is automatic for anyone playing the assumed entry.

True, most of the overpowered PrCs are in that tier, but I highly doubt the Moonspeaker or Legendary Captain or Soulbow are on par with the Incanatrix in terms of power or broken. The overpowered ones are on that tier because they are the most powerful PrCs in the game, and it makes sense for them to be in the highest tier.

A "tier" system makes sense for base classes as a measure of estimable power for DMs to utilize. PrCs, it makes less sense for as there are a myriad number of ways to qualify for the admittedly hundreds of PrCs, so an estimation of each PrC's power in relation to an "assumed entry" is, frankly, about as worthwhile as chewing coffee beans.

The Bloodstorm Blade PrC is possible to enter without taking a Warblade Dip, so assuming that Warblade is 'the assumed entry' is both asinine and presumptive.

Most maneuvers in ToB are not usable with ranged weapons. The Bloodstorm Blade makes that possible, but at the sacrifice of not being able to advance further in the traditional means of powering up your maneuvers. It is akin to entering a PrC that does not fully advance CL, but is built for casters (like, say, Malconvoker). Saying that it "sucks" because you can't think outside the box enough to make it work for you rather than you working for it speaks more towards your lack of ingenuity rather than towards a failure on the PrC's fault. Many players would be happy to take all ten levels of the PrC, and as such it should be regarded as a class of that measure.

Certainly, it can be used as a dip--but then again, so can any "Tier 1" base class in the game. So relegating a class to a "dip only" status because it has good features in its first few levels is a fool's chore: the wizard gets good features in its first few levels. So does the psion. So does the Io7FV, and the Void Disciple, and the Anima Magus, and the MoMF. Does that make them, too, dip classes? No.

[Ernir]

No it isn't! It's not even equal to the base class used to enter it. It's considered a 2-level Dip, at most.

4 levels of Bloodstorm Blade are the best 4 levels a thrower can get, if you ask me.

Mmmm, I want a Dungeoncrashing, Palm Throwing, Stormguard Warrioring Bloodstorm Blade. Because damage in the thousands becomes more impressive if you do it from across the room.

[The Glyphstone]

That's not the definition of a 'dip' class. A dip class is one whose class features granted in the early levels is disproportionately more valuable/powerful than those granted at later levels, particularly compared to the alternatives. Call them top-heavy, if you will.

IotSFV and Anima Mage get good stuff all through their progression, Initiate in particular gets increasingly better the more levels you take. MoMF likewise, its best features are in the latter levels of the class. Comparatively, a Bloodstorm Blade 10 will almost always be an inferior thrower to a Bloodstorm Blade 4/Master Thrower 5/Fighter 1 - after getting Lightning Ricochet at level 4, nothing BBlade gives you is really worth it until the 10th level and the ranged Whirlwind ability.

[Fax Celestis]

That's not the definition of a 'dip' class. A dip class is one whose class features granted in the early levels is disproportionately more valuable/powerful than those granted at later levels, particularly compared to the alternatives. Call them top-heavy, if you will.

I understand that. What I'm saying is that relegating the BB to "dip-class" status because it doesn't progress maneuvers is idiotic.

[The Glyphstone]

That's not why it's a dip class though - it's a dip class because nothing after those 4 levels is worth the investment. If it granted maneuvers, even just 1 or two over its entire progression, it'd make continuing past level 4 much more attractive. Dip-class status for the BB doesn't come from its lack of maneuvers, but adding them could be what is needed to drag it out of dip status.

[Doc Roc]

I understand that. What I'm saying is that relegating the BB to "dip-class" status because it doesn't progress maneuvers is idiotic.

I disagree. I've never seen a serious build with more than 4 levels or less than 10. And the one that used 10 managed to stretch its range increment out to around 800 feet, and kill everything within reach.

This is indicative of a problem with the class. Would you be okay with a base class that saw only four levels used outside of remote cases? It's not that the other abilities are bad. It's that they aren't good. I would much rather do something interesting with my precious levels than lose out of most of my existing class features over time.

I personally allow BsB to progress IL but not grant maneuvers, which is still a weak fix, but it makes it a lot more fun and more variable.

[Mongoose87]

I disagree. I've never seen a serious build with more than 4 levels or less than 10. And the one that used 10 managed to stretch its range increment out to around 800 feet, and kill everything within reach.

This is indicative of a problem with the class. Would you be okay with a base class that saw only four levels used outside of remote cases? It's not that the other abilities are bad. It's that they aren't good. I would much rather do something interesting with my precious levels than lose out of most of my existing class features over time.

I personally allow BsB to progress IL but not grant maneuvers, which is still a weak fix, but it makes it a lot more fun and more variable.

What about progressing IL, and give up the fighter bonus feats for a maneuver progression. Too good?

[Salvonus]

Query: Why on earth would the Bloodstorm Blade being a +2 tier PrC be a desirable thing? The rest of the PrCs from ToB are +0 or +1 - is that not the "reasonable" range for PrCs? "Automatic entry" is, generally speaking, a bad thing from the perspective of game diversity.

(Of course, if you're looking at something like the Soulknife+Soulbow, that's just fine in my book. It needs the boost. )

[Sinfire Titan]

Query: Why on earth would the Bloodstorm Blade being a +2 tier PrC be a desirable thing? The rest of the PrCs from ToB are +0 or +1 - is that not the "reasonable" range for PrCs? "Automatic entry" is, generally speaking, a bad thing from the perspective of game diversity.

(Of course, if you're looking at something like the Soulknife+Soulbow, that's just fine in my book. It needs the boost. )

So melee can have a nice thing for once, and not shoot themselves in the foot every time they want to do something the casters do?

Is that so wrong?

[Longcat]

Would you be okay with a base class that saw only four levels used outside of remote cases?

I thought that class was called "Fighter"? With the remote case being Dungeoncrasher.

[Elfin]

I think Fighter has only two levels...and even that's stretching it.

[Doc Roc]

So melee can have a nice thing for once, and not shoot themselves in the foot every time they want to do something the casters do?

Is that so wrong?

Ask Rich Baker or Skip Williams. I'll be hiding behind a nice solid crate.

Automatic entry is only a bad thing if there aren't multiple viable archetypes represented within the spread of available +2 PrCs. In other words, I think that mechanically, as long as there are multiple good things to do, it is okay if each of these good things has just one or two natural ways of being done. I am, by nature, a minimalist and a reductionist.

[Salvonus]

So melee can have a nice thing for once, and not shoot themselves in the foot every time they want to do something the casters do?

Is that so wrong?

First off, there's absolutely nothing wrong with warrior-types having nice things. In fact, my favourite supplement is full of nice things for warriors! It's called Tome of Battle.

That's where I don't quite get what you mean. ToB is nowhere near caster-level power, but it makes melee fun by giving them a myriad of cool options. I count that as a book full of nice things. So, "for once" doesn't make much sense to me.

I always thought that PrCs were about adding interesting abilities and flavour to your character. I also thought they were about specialisation, in one form or another. It's supposed to be a trade-off of abilities, is it not? +2 tier PrCs are, as you called it, "automatic choices for entry" - so, suddenly, the "best" Warblade build is always going to involve Bloodstorm Blade. Why is that a good thing? Isn't it more interesting to have a diversity of different options that are more or less equal?

To me, giving more "nice things" to warriors would involve a whole bunch of extra disciplines and +0 or +1 tier PrCs. It wouldn't be making one particular ToB PrC more powerful than the other ones from that book, which is what I gather you're suggesting.

If I've misinterpreted what you're saying, I'm sorry.

(Ah, in response to the previous post - the ToB base classes are actually quite nice, and +2 PrCs basically make taking 20 levels of the base class a poor proposition. That's another part of why I think it hurts mechanical diversity. Honestly, I hate +2 PrCs of all stripes. )

[Starbuck_II]

I think Fighter has only two levels...and even that's stretching it.

Dungeon Crashers take more to gain good Bull rushing damage.

But yeah, that is it.

[Dhavaer]

Also note that not all PrCs in Tome of Battle advance Initiator Level at the same rate as the base classes. Each one needs to be read carefully to see exactly what it does.

Wut? All prestige classes grant initiator level on a 1:1 basis.

In most cases, you add the full prestige class level to your martial adept level to determine your initiator level.

No prestige classes, as far as I'm aware, specify that they don't add full initiator level, so this general rule would apply. Did you mean that they don't advance maneuvers known and readied?

[Sophismata]

Hmmm... I'm kind of surprised that the RKV is only +1, which puts it next to the Jade Phoenix Mage (not saying Jade Phoenix is bad, just that RKV seems to improve on Crusader / Divine much more than Jade Phoenix improves Swordsage / Arcane).

Kind of a shame to see the Mo9, my favourite prestige class, at -1; with the crazy feat requirements, though, it's easy to see why.

[Yuki Akuma]

In general, initiators don't really need prestige classes - they get nice things all through their levels, so a Swordsage or Warblade or Crusader 20 is a fine build choice.

They're not like Paladins, whose entire progression beyond level 5 is getting cure disease a few more times per week, or clerics and wizards, who only progress turnign and familiars, respectively, which can easily be overcome by taking feats...

Master of Nine isn't very good because, while it gives you access to all the disciplines, you can't really take any of the higher level maneuvers in those disciplines because you need to start at like level 2.