I don't understand how Legacy Weapons from ToB works

[elliott20]

I've been reading and re-reading the legacy weapon entries. Interesting stuff, but the whole mess with the rituals to unlock the legacies and all that kind of confuse me. More precisely, what exactly does getting say, a lesser legacy or greater legacy do for you? I see no mention of this of how this works in the book itself. Are the abilities that are tied to the weapon (which is already tied to character levels) actually split into categories? If so, where is this information located?

Maybe I'm just missing it but this has caused a bit of confusion for me enough that I'm tempted to scrap this system and use my own homebrew system for it instead.

[lsfreak]

I don't know anything about it, except that it's a tie-in to the aptly named book Weapons of Legacy. The rules are covered in there.

[Godskook]

As many times as I've read that section, I've yet to come up with a good reason to want use any of the 9 swords. Taking permanent penalties for a non-permanent item always seemed dumb to me.

[elliott20]

well, I can sort of understand why you'd want to do that since you are in essence trading some penalties for the ability to do some martial adept stuff. Whether or not it's worth it is a different thing, but every time I look at this, I just wonder what the hell is the point of those rituals. I mean, honestly, the rituals were IMO some of the best parts about the weapon. But I don't understand what those damn rituals are supposed to do!

[ShadowFighter15]

As lsfreak mentioned; all of the rules for Legacy weapons are in Weapons of Legacy.

[alchemyprime]

well, I can sort of understand why you'd want to do that since you are in essence trading some penalties for the ability to do some martial adept stuff. Whether or not it's worth it is a different thing, but every time I look at this, I just wonder what the hell is the point of those rituals. I mean, honestly, the rituals were IMO some of the best parts about the weapon. But I don't understand what those damn rituals are supposed to do!

Okay, IIRC, the first ritual unlocks level 5-10. The second ritual unlocks levels 11-15. And the third unlocks level 16-20.

So let's say I have some weapon... Desert Wind. If I only do the first ritual, it will only advance into 10th level. When I reah 11th level, the sword stays at 10th level stats. It does not advance until I do that second ritual. If I do that second ritual at say... 13th level, it instantly jumps up to the 13th level of that weapon's advancement. But until I do it, it's stuck at 10th.

Now that I did the second ritual, when I reah 16th, unless I did the third ritual, it is stuck until I complete the third ritual. Once I do that, it jumps fom 15th to wherever I am.

If I do them ahead of time, it just advances with me.

Make sense?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Also, note that most Weapons of Legacy suck. You're better off taking the ones given as examples in the same vein as the iconic characters are examples, and then rebuilding their abilities to be useful. As-is, they're worse than just buying a magic weapon.

[elliott20]

Okay, IIRC, the first ritual unlocks level 5-10. The second ritual unlocks levels 11-15. And the third unlocks level 16-20.

So let's say I have some weapon... Desert Wind. If I only do the first ritual, it will only advance into 10th level. When I reah 11th level, the sword stays at 10th level stats. It does not advance until I do that second ritual. If I do that second ritual at say... 13th level, it instantly jumps up to the 13th level of that weapon's advancement. But until I do it, it's stuck at 10th.

Now that I did the second ritual, when I reah 16th, unless I did the third ritual, it is stuck until I complete the third ritual. Once I do that, it jumps fom 15th to wherever I am.

If I do them ahead of time, it just advances with me.

Make sense?

Yes, that actually clears it up completely. Thanks.

The next question is, why do you guys think the legacy weapons are not that good? I haven't had a good chance at dissecting the weapons themselves mechanically but I think a little insight can be helpful.

[PinkysBrain]

The amount of money you save by not just buying an equivalent magic item is generally not enough to balance the penalties.

[T.G. Oskar]

Yes, that actually clears it up completely. Thanks.

The next question is, why do you guys think the legacy weapons are not that good? I haven't had a good chance at dissecting the weapons themselves mechanically but I think a little insight can be helpful.

It depends. Mostly, if you can whip up a relatively low set of penalties to get a free magic item and apply that to the usually pumped up enhancements, and then finally work it up nicely with a story, you can do a pretty strong item actually.

Mostly, think of it like this: say you got a weapon, a masterwork bow so to speak. The rules speak of "choosing a set of restrictions depending on your clas and whatnot"; if your DM isn't a rules lawyer, ditch the recommendation and go for something you can work with. There's one or two in the list that are actually pretty unmenacing: if you get the one that reduces HP (a bit painful, true), and one save (which you should pretty much ignore if you're a martial adept and are using the weakest save while getting the Diamond Mind applicable counter), you're practically getting a save for little effort. If your DM follows the recommendation, you're a bit screwed since it's meant to cripple a bit your forte, but most times you can shrug the HP-based and save-based penalties. Just make sure you never, never, EVER, get the ones that take up a spell slot, power points, or skill points. Those are killer. Also, the ones that reduce your attack bonus: those are penalties so you still get the iterative attacks despite the AB reduction.

Now, after applying that (say you nuked Will and HP, got the Martial Study feat for Moment of Perfect Mind and got some points in Concentration), mostly go for the ones that grant you enhancements. Get, for example, the one that grants you a +1 enhancement bonus. Then, afterwards, delay most of the gained abilities for the Weapon Enhancement abilities (usually C, F or I abilities), and work so you can get the special abilities you want. For example, if you can get your weapon to raise to a +4, get Splitting. Then, go moderate and get, say, Force, or those abilities that make Bows shine. You only need a +1, since either a friendly Cleric, Wizard or oils of Greater Magic Weapon +5 make your weapon even better. Try to make your weapon have an effective enhancement bonus as close to +10 as possible before epic levels, but make sure you get the ones you really want first.

The end result is a weapon (or heck, even armor) with the abilities you want, while getting as less of an investment as possible. HP can be fixed a bit with increases in Con, saves can be technically replaced, and you can work somehow with the attack bonus; anything else, and you're risking not getting more bang for your buck.

I personally like Items of Legacy, but not the ones presented there (with a few exceptions mostly for the fluff). Usually, it's better to make your own, and attempt to get as much control as possible on the creation.

Ironically, Item Familiar usually ends up being roughly better for the characters that get it. Usually, you'll want to get Item Familiar for spellcasters, Ancestral Relic for most martial characters (mostly for weapons), and if possible, one Item of Legacy (either weapon, armor or shield) if you're unsure if the other two aren't applicable. The first consumes a feat and XP, the other mostly money, and the third has expenditure of XP, money and the penalties; however, the latter can be tweaked a bit more than the former two.

It's mostly choice, but be forewarned that you need to be quite skilled to make the optimum Item of Legacy.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Yes, that actually clears it up completely. Thanks.

The next question is, why do you guys think the legacy weapons are not that good? I haven't had a good chance at dissecting the weapons themselves mechanically but I think a little insight can be helpful.

The penalties are generally bad enough to cancel out the fact that you're getting a free weapon, and the weapons have pretty weak special abilities. The straight +X weapon enhancements are pretty much worthless, and the other enhancements are generally weaker than the ones you'd pick for yourself. Great concept, poor execution.

[Starbuck_II]

Also in case it is unclear:

You can take the feat for the rituals or do what is required and you get it for free.

Like a Water slaying sword would have killing a Sahuagin Mutant to unlock the least ritual. It would probably have you must deal the finishing blow written.

[Knaight]

Short version of all this being, Fax Celestis has a better magical item system that does the same thing. Right Here.

[Eldariel]

Most of the Weapons of Legacy suck. Custom Legacies can be pretty solid though. That said, yeah, the system is kinda meh. But I make heavy use of Weapons of Legacy, especially in support roles, for high level non-casters since they're basically the only affordable means of acquiring Moment of Prescience, "Foresight", Mind Blank (no, I'm NOT paying 1200000gp for that, thank you very many), etc. They also offer great options for casters.

The stupid part is though that they make lackluster actual weapons, making Gauntlets and such much more practical since their weapon abilities are no better than non-Legacy weapons' and cost a ton of precious picks to boot. So yeah, the system could use revision.


But as written, the ones in Bo9S aren't amazing, but they aren't horrible either. I remember someone doing a duel between the archetypal practitioners of each school at level 20 wielding their school's Legacy Weapon at Greater Legacy. That was pretty sweet. That said, it also showed that the best parts in the weapons are frankly spell-likes; stuff like Invisibility is gonna be pretty big in martial Free-For-All.

[Elfin]

Which weapons turned out to be the best? I'd put my money on Supernatural Clarity and Faithful Avenger.

[Dragonmuncher]

Also in case it is unclear:

You can take the feat for the rituals or do what is required and you get it for free.

Like a Water slaying sword would have killing a Sahuagin Mutant to unlock the least ritual. It would probably have you must deal the finishing blow written.

Is that correct? I thought that you had to do the ritual AND take the feat. Like Roy learning his grandpa's martial arts moves up in the afterlife, but then needing to spend a feat on it down below to make it "official."

[PinkysBrain]

You get the feat as a bonus feat after you complete the ritual.

[Starbuck_II]

Granted, the whole penalties for unlocking their power is good fluff, but terrible mechanics.

If they were a whole lot more powerful I could see it...maybe.

[T.G. Oskar]

Also in case it is unclear:

You can take the feat for the rituals or do what is required and you get it for free.

Like a Water slaying sword would have killing a Sahuagin Mutant to unlock the least ritual. It would probably have you must deal the finishing blow written.

Actually, no. Pinky got it right: you don't need to ever take the feat, not even if you're the one making the Legacy. You gain it as a bonus feat when you finish the ritual. If you're the one founding the legacy, you pay the money and the XP, and you get the unlocking Legacy feats for free.

As well, Legacy Items are pretty good, but you must know which of the choices are good and which are not. Even as weapons, they can be pretty good. A bow that allows you to, say, use Scorching Ray at will as if an 8th level caster right there pretty much beats Multishot against most creatures, and aids the caster. Mix that with, say, the Splitting property for when you want to combine that with Multishot, or become capable of casting Mirror Image on yourself (even if for a limited time)...the abilities are there.

Also, not all of the Weapon Enhancement choices are bad. Those who don't allow you to replace with special abilities (aka, the limited ones) are not as effective, unless you have absolutely no way you can get a Greater Magic Weapon cast upon you. Getting an ability that costs a +4 (which can scale pretty badly) for a fraction of XP and GP is quite economical. Not so much when the enhancement is +1 or +2, and even then, in the long end, it becomes valuable.

Also, the Mutable Legacies are pretty hilarious. You can have a subset of varied abilities, just by changing a thing or two. This one can be pretty nifty, since that means you can make a weapon that has both the Force property and one of the elemental properties, determined by...say, the gem it has embedded somewhere in the weapon. Or, by placing a bit of a specific creature, you can attune the weapon to become a Bane weapon. Stuff like that.

But that just shows a bit what Eldariel speaks: Weapons and Items of Legacy are a bit meh, and Custom Legacies are where the good stuff's at. You can find eventually one of the items which can fit your specific class and archetype, but eventually, the idea is to build your own legacy and make your really awesome items. Weapons of Legacy are, mostly, a tad stronger than Ancestral Relics and a bit more useful than Magic Item Sets, but not as powerful as Artifacts or Item Familiars, and are definitely much better than Item Scions.

[NEO|Phyte]

Which weapons turned out to be the best? I'd put my money on Supernatural Clarity and Faithful Avenger.

I'm a fan of the Tiger Claw weapon, if only for the 15-20x4 crit. Though I suppose there's kaorti resin or whatever it's called that can do the same, if you can find a DM unhinged enough to give you access to the stuff.

[Eldariel]

Which weapons turned out to be the best? I'd put my money on Supernatural Clarity and Faithful Avenger.

Crusaders ruled the roost, though the setting sun SS was indeed also awesome. I recall Supernal Clarity kept winning until it ran into the Setting Sun Swordsage who promptly proceeded to Shifting Defense all his attacks and win (with some Hearing the Air-assistance - the builds weren't solely of one school).

I'm trying to find the thing right now, but having little luck as I remember little of it. If I do find it (and it hasn't been eaten by the thread purge), I'll link you. I've linked it before, but finding that link from my posts (there's about 5000 of them) isn't easy.

EDIT: Got something:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73908
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73938
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74292
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74372


My memory didn't serve me well. It was never finished, it appears. Enjoy the initial round fights though.

We totally need to finish this! Anyone with me? 9 builds, 1 player per build, start with a Battle Royale to send the winner straight into the finals and rest do a double elimination for the other slot. Some other limitations (must wield the school's special weapon, must focus "almost" [to be defined] exclusively on one school, no multiclassing or obligatory multiclassing in the school appropriate PrC [3 Crusaders, 3 Warblades, 3 SSs]), and we've got ourselves a fight.

[Elfin]

Sure! I'll make a Crusader or a Warblade.
Let's see...
Crusaders have White Raven, Devoted Spirit, and Stone Dragon.
Warblades can have Iron Heart, Diamond Mind, and Tiger Claw.
Swordsages of course have Shadow Hand, Setting Sun, and Desert Wind.

[Tyndmyr]

I happen to have weapons of legacy, and I agree...they're not generally worth it.

Sure, the end product may look good...for example, one of em is a set of +4 gauntlets at level 20. It also has a few random abilities(Bullybasher's Gauntlets, I opened the book at random) that are of minor use. Ex: Gaining one hp(once per day) when your hp level is between -1 and -9. Could help, but not exactly the greatest of abilities. It's an ok item, but this is level 20...a +4 item is not that hard to get, frankly.

However, you've lost a total of 16 skill points, 8 hit points, gotten a skill check penalty of 3, and an attack penalty of 2.

All the misc benefits are nice, but the penalties you pay tend to pretty much negate them, and frankly, you could just buy a weapon that was overall better with far less hassle.