Battle Sorcerer Variant balance?

[OverdrivePrime]

So, I'm supposed to play an arcanist, but I really like gishes best, and the guy I'm thinking of doesn't rely on tomes and wands and crap like that. Just a good sword and some formidable inborn power.

I'm thinking of going Human (Neutral Good) Battle Sorcerer 4/Warblade 2/Abjurant Champion 4/Jade Phoenix Mage 10. Strength > Charisma > Constitution > Intelligence > Dexterity > Wisdom

I'm primarily concerned with mixing it up with spells to buff myself and do minor field control. Starting level will be 8.

I was worried about a really complicated build and having to mess around with various items to make him not to fragile, but the battle sorcerer seems like a good solution, particularly since I envision this guy relying on a few trademark spells.

On the power scale, how does the battle sorcerer variant balance out against the standard sorcerer? Also, I'm strongly considering the rapid metamagic Alternate Class Feature from the PHB 2. Is that cheating too badly?

Allowed books: Core, Completes & Spell Compendium. Nothing else.

[Godskook]

ToB isn't in your allowed books....

Also, what do you mean, "you're supposed to play an arcanist". Is this an expectation from your group or something?

[woodenbandman]

Heh.

Might try something like Stalwart Battle Sorceror/Abjurant Champion and nothing else.

[Eldariel]

Battle Sorcerer is horrible. The "one spell per level per day"-loss is perfectly doable. The thing that kills it is the "one spell less known per level"-part. Have you ever checked the Sorcerer Spells Known? Yeah, now it's even lower.

So you'll ever only know 3 level 3 spells (GL choosing; that level is stacked for Gishes even without wanting any offense - Haste, Phantom Steed, Fly, Keen Edge, Greater Magic Weapon, etc.), and 2 level 6+ spells per level (yeah, GL choosing...). Like level 6, only Core, offers among others:
Contingency
Greater Dispel Magic
Anti-Magic Field
Greater Heroism
Disintegrate

just for simple effects you'll very probably want access to as a Gish. You can replicate Contingency with Greater Shadow Evocation and possibly Greater Heroism by having a Bard in party, but GL choosing between GDM, Disintegrate and AMF (which just so happens to be a key spell vs. all full casters).


Just eat up that one point BAB loss and go regular Sorcerer. Oh, and with Charisma as secondary, the "spells per day"-part might hurt you too. But it's the "spells known"-part that makes Battle Sorcerer practically unplayable.


Personally? I'd go either:
Sorcerer 4/Paladin 2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8

or

Sorcerer 5/Crusader 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 4

[quick_comment]

Forget battle sorcerer or stalwart sorcerer. Both are really bad.

I would go with a duskblade. Its the simplest gish around.

[FinalJustice]

Battle Sorcerer does not seem worth it. An extra second level spell known (namely False Life) can compensate for the hit points you'd gain with Battle Sorcerer, and the lost BaB also doesn't hurt too much, and will be irrelevant if you manage to grab a Skillful Weapon.

EDIT: D-d-d-d-ouble Ninja'd.

[Leon]

I for one like the Battle Sorcerer.
Its perfectly playable, just needs some careful forethought of spell selection.

On paper the Duskblade looks nice but now having seen it in a game I'm on the side that the DM chose - its a bit OTT since it gains so much at little cost.

Dwarf strangely works good as a race here if you have a decent score to negate the CHA loss as they get to use the Waraxe and a CON boost is always nice for anyone

Rapid Metamagic is a nice Variant feature and certainly not cheating

[olentu]

Just a note, I am reasonably sure that the alternative class feature from the PHB 2 where one trades their familiar for the ability to apply metamagic without increasing casting time only works 3+int mod times per day.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

The benefits of both battle sorcerer and stalwart sorcerer kind of fall off once you stop taking sorcerer levels. That d8 you get? Only an extra 2 HP on average.

Really, you're best set-up, if you're going to play a sorceraloter, would be to go something like Sorcerer6/EK X/Abjurant Champion 5/EK, Spellsword, Dragonslayer, whatever else you can find that gives +1BAB/+CL Y. Qualify via being an outsider. Also, if "Core" for you includes the entirety of the SRD, then use the LA buy-off rules and go to town.

Alternate plan is Paladin 2/Sorcerer 5/Sacred Exorcist 8/ Abjurant Champion 5.

EDIT: Yeah, got class names confused. Sacred Exorcist is what you're looking for.

[Leon]

Just a note, I am reasonably sure that the alternative class feature from the PHB 2 where one trades their familiar for the ability to apply metamagic without increasing casting time only works 3+int mod times per day.

Correct
There is a Feat in Complete Mage that is unlimited times a day but requires 12 ranks in a skill thus level nine feat slot

[Mongoose87]

I for one like the Battle Sorcerer.
Its perfectly playable, just needs some careful forethought of spell selection.

On paper the Duskblade looks nice but now having seen it in a game I'm on the side that the DM chose - its a bit OTT since it gains so much at little cost.

Dwarf strangely works good as a race here if you have a decent score to negate the CHA loss as they get to use the Waraxe and a CON boost is always nice for anyone

Rapid Metamagic is a nice Variant feature and certainly not cheating

You take the dwarf who gets the Dex penalty, instead of Cha, ja?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

You take the dwarf who gets the Dex penalty, instead of Cha, ja?

Dream Dwarf, I think qualifies, but that's Races of Stone. Also, if you go that route, getting the substitution levels would help out loads on the casting front.

EDIT: Looks like the substitution level doesn't happen until Sorcerer 9, so it's less than a good idea now, barring something like persisted divine power.

[Leon]

You take the dwarf who gets the Dex penalty, instead of Cha, ja?

True, i had forgotten about that subrace

[lsfreak]

Gold dwarf from FR is +2Con, -2Dex, and +1 to stuff versus aberrations instead of goblinoids.

Dream dwarves from RoS are +2Con, -2Dex, and replace the attack/AC bonuses with increased caster levels for divination and earth spells and the ability to see ethereal creatures.

[olentu]

Correct
There is a Feat in Complete Mage that is unlimited times a day but requires 12 ranks in a skill thus level nine feat slot

It is good that I remembered that correctly as I would not like to be spreading incorrect information.

[Mongoose87]

Gold dwarf from FR is +2Con, -2Dex, and +1 to stuff versus aberrations instead of goblinoids.

Dream dwarves from RoS are +2Con, -2Dex, and replace the attack/AC bonuses with increased caster levels for divination and earth spells and the ability to see ethereal creatures.

I was definitely thinking of Gold Dwarf. I've never even heard of the Dream Dwarf.

[OverdrivePrime]

ToB isn't in your allowed books....

Also, what do you mean, "you're supposed to play an arcanist". Is this an expectation from your group or something?

Ah, sorry. I've been treating TOB as core since it came out. TOB and PHBII are included.

The party has a divine caster (cleric of Pelor), a sneak (scout) and a frontliner (Barbarian) ... the missing part is an arcane caster.

Hmm... yeah, the -1 spell known really hurts. I liked the armored casting bit along with the higher hit die, but yeah, after level 6 he's really starting to suffer.

After thinking about it, I don't see this guy doing a whole heck of a lot of metamagic. Are there any better ACFs out there that let you ditch the familiar? I hate having that little liability floating around.

[Sinfire Titan]

The higher HD is replicated with an optimized Con score (Gold/Dream Dwarf Dragonborn). The loss of spells known is irreparable.


The BAB increase is meaningless to a full caster. It's a +10 bonus and 3 extra attacks, something you can get through Shapechange. Why waste 2 CLs and 9 spells known when you can pay 1000gp and a spell slot/day to get the same effect?

Or be a Druid. Same basic idea, less awesome (unless you go Planar Shepard).


Base Attack Bonus is overrated and overvalued. It wouldn't make a big difference if everyone but the full casters had Full BAB, they'd still lose in the long run (or even the short run). When the same ability can be duplicated by one of two spells, it isn't worth investing more than 2 levels of your build to get (both Divine Power and Shapechange can replicate full BAB, so the joke's on the Gish).

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The problem with Battle Sorc is that everything you get vanishes after level 6 other than the Armored Casting, and actual armor is far less useful to gishes than things like Displacement and Greater Mirror Image. If you PrC out after 6(which is the latest you should be PrCing), you've gained 14 HP, +2 BAB, and lost 1 spell known from each spell level. Even the 9th level spells when a guy spitting does more than 14 damage and your attack bonus is YES. It's not worth it.

And @ whoever said the Duskblade is OP, no. The class is a striker, on the level of a skill-less and more combat-oriented Rogue. He's far weaker in melee than a Cleric or Druid, and does very little other than deal damage. It's an Evocation-focused Gish, they have to give it a lot to make it competent.

[Leon]

I was definitely thinking of Gold Dwarf. I've never even heard of the Dream Dwarf.

i was the reverse


Other Replaces Familiar Variants i can recall are
- Spell shield (Dungeonscape)
- Divine Companion (Complete Champion)
- Trade it for a Animal Companion (SRD -as a Druid of half your Level)

Another option requires some multi classing with Druid and becoming a Arcane Hireophant.
The PrC does away with the familiar and merges its powers into the Animal companion

And @ whoever said the Duskblade is OP, no. The class is a striker, on the level of a skill-less and more combat-oriented Rogue. He's far weaker in melee than a Cleric or Druid, and does very little other than deal damage. It's an Evocation-focused Gish, they have to give it a lot to make it competent.

I said i sided with the DM on his judgment that it was OTT, his game his word.
Its OP - you get the dream of every Melee Arcane Caster in full BAB, Spells and Armour in one neat package with no real drawback

Dealing damage is generally what a Striker type aims to do and not need to worry about doing much else

It may suit some games but not others.
Turned out it didn't fit in ours