4e - simultaneous reaction triggers

[valadil]

I was playing some 4e last night and we ran into some unclear rules. I bloodied an enemy. The enemy had an ability that lets him teleport away after getting hit. I had Press the Advantage, which lets me make another attack after bloodying someone. Can I hit the enemy with PtA or does he get to teleport first? I don't have the exact text for the enemy's ability on hand - if it matters could you show me each case for how it could be worded and why that makes a difference?

PHB p268 is the only reference I found for this and it seems vague. It also makes me wonder how Press the Advantage works if you can't take an opportunity action on your turn (unless it doesn't count as an opportunity action).

For the record, we ended up doing an opposed initiative roll to see who went first. This seemed reasonable and I'd be willing to use it again, I figured I'd check if there was an official rule here as I'm at work and bored.

[t_catt11]

I'm still not 4e fluent, but this sounds like a reasonable solution to me.

[Myshlaevsky]

It sounds like the teleport power is an immediate reaction. Therefore, I'd say the monster teleports away once your first attack is completely resolved, but before your second attack.

Can you let us know what monster it was? Even a vague description would help.

[shadzar]

Place both actions on the stack and resolve them last in first out?

Player A hits
Player B gets to respond with intent to teleport
Player A responds by initiating PtA

So PtA goes off first, then the teleport resolves. Each participant gets to take turns to attempt to do something in response to prior actions, and after all actions have been declared then you resolve them top-down off the stack.

[valadil]

It sounds like the teleport power is an immediate reaction. Therefore, I'd say the monster teleports away once your first attack is completely resolved, but before your second attack.

Can you let us know what monster it was? Even a vague description would help.

It was some sort of tiefling. I believe it was level 8.

Place both actions on the stack and resolve them last in first out?

Player A hits
Player B gets to respond with intent to teleport
Player A responds by initiating PtA

So PtA goes off first, then the teleport resolves. Each participant gets to take turns to attempt to do something in response to prior actions, and after all actions have been declared then you resolve them top-down off the stack.

That sounds very M:tGish. I wasn't aware that 4e had a stack until I started googling this problem.

My issue with this answer is that the triggers could go off in either order. 'A hits, B intends to teleport, A does PtA' is just as valid as 'A hits, A does PtA, B intends to teleport.' Without knowing which happens first it could be either one of these. If each participant gets to take turns calling for triggered actions, there should be a ruling as to whether the attacker or defender gets to play a triggered action first.

[Sipex]

If the teleport is an immediate reaction it goes first unless your second attack is also an immediate reaction (it will say in the power)...then I'd give it to whoever had the higher init.

[Mando Knight]

Press the Advantage, the Rogue level 1 daily attack power, is a free action, which takes almost no time at all, and does not count as an opportunity action. However, the immediate reaction of the teleportation is allowed to take place before any secondary actions that happen after the trigger.

The second paragraph of the fourth bullet point on PHB1 p268 illustrates this, giving the example of a monster with a double-attack power (two attacks with a single standard action) activating a character's immediate reaction power with the first attack. The reaction takes place before the second attack of the double-attack power. This would be almost the same as your incident here, except that you have to take an extra action (Double Attack is a single action) to deal the second attack, so the reaction should have even more priority.

Immediate actions have higher priority than free actions chained to the same effect.

[Kurald Galain]

That sounds very M:tGish. I wasn't aware that 4e had a stack until I started googling this problem.

It doesn't. It is a common fallacy among MtG players to assume that other games (e.g. Munchkin the cardgame) also use the "stack", even though none of them do. "I said it last therefore I go first" just doesn't work.

Okay. If either effect is an interrupt, that effect goes first. If the feat you're using modifies the power, then that effect goes first, and the reaction goes afterwards. If both are free actions or immediate reactions, then the rules aren't clear and it's up to the DM - personally I'd rule that whoever's turn it was goes first. Alternatively, since 4E is really about the players being heoric, I'd say that the player's effect goes first.

Note that Press the Advantage doesn't actually do that (it lets you maintain CA on a crit, not make an extra attack).

(edit) responding to Mando, there is unfortunately a difference between one power that lets you do two attacks (in which case, yes, immediates can trigger between those) and one power followed by a (triggered) free action. There is nothing in the rules that say that triggered free actions preempt triggered reactions, or vice versa - the only difference between those is that triggered free actions aren't limited to one per turn.

[Whammydill]

I'd hit it with a big bag of logic.

If I hit something and bloody it, and it can teleport as soon as its bloodied. Unless teleporting takes some amount of time, its going to teleport before I can rechamber for a strike.

[valadil]

Press the Advantage, the Rogue level 1 daily attack power, is a free action, which takes almost no time at all, and does not count as an opportunity action. However, the immediate reaction of the teleportation is allowed to take place before any secondary actions that happen after the trigger.

The second paragraph of the fourth bullet point on PHB1 p268 illustrates this, giving the example of a monster with a double-attack power (two attacks with a single standard action) activating a character's immediate reaction power with the first attack. The reaction takes place before the second attack of the double-attack power. This would be almost the same as your incident here, except that you have to take an extra action (Double Attack is a single action) to deal the second attack, so the reaction should have even more priority.

Immediate actions have higher priority than free actions chained to the same effect.

Makes sense. Hypothetically, if PtA were an immediate reaction what would happen? Or has WotC deliberately avoided creating any circumstances where this can occur?

[Myshlaevsky]

Note that Press the Advantage doesn't actually do that (it lets you maintain CA on a crit, not make an extra attack).

That's the feat, but it's also the name of a Rogue Daily in Martial power, which does let you make an extra attack. Lazy naming, IMO.

[KillianHawkeye]

Makes sense. Hypothetically, if PtA were an immediate reaction what would happen? Or has WotC deliberately avoided creating any circumstances where this can occur?

You can't take immediate actions on your own turn, so that's why it's a free action.

[Mando Knight]

(edit) responding to Mando, there is unfortunately a difference between one power that lets you do two attacks (in which case, yes, immediates can trigger between those) and one power followed by a (triggered) free action. There is nothing in the rules that say that triggered free actions preempt triggered reactions, or vice versa - the only difference between those is that triggered free actions aren't limited to one per turn.

It states the following about that, under "Immediate Action," in the second paragraph of the bullet point "Reaction":

An immediate reaction might interrupt other actions a combatant takes after its triggering action.

Then it goes on to show an example of such a reaction, involving a reaction to interrupt a two-attack single-action power to counter before the second attack. A free action is still an action, so taking a free action to make a free attack should be interrupted by an immediate action that activates on the same trigger, since immediate actions can do so in the middle of a two-part attack action that counts as one action.

[Gralamin]

It states the following about that, under "Immediate Action," in the second paragraph of the bullet point "Reaction":


Then it goes on to show an example of such a reaction, involving a reaction to interrupt a two-attack single-action power to counter before the second attack. A free action is still an action, so taking a free action to make a free attack should be interrupted by an immediate action that activates on the same trigger, since immediate actions can do so in the middle of a two-part attack action that counts as one action.

An immediate reaction might interrupt other actions a combatant takes after its triggering action.

That does not, however, allow a reaction to interrupt a two-part attack. A Reaction must wait for the triggering action to Finish. The triggering Action was a standard action that has two-attacks, so it waits for that to finish. Once its done, It'll continue with the other actions.

An easy way of thinking about it is: Interrupts cause a stack, while Reactions and free actions cause a Queue.

It is kinda unknown where no actions sit (Such as a paladin's challenge damage).

[Mando Knight]

That does not, however, allow a reaction to interrupt a two-part attack. A Reaction must wait for the triggering action to Finish. The triggering Action was a standard action that has two-attacks, so it waits for that to finish. Once its done, It'll continue with the other actions.

Look at PHB p268 again. It specifies that if you have an immediate reaction power that you can use when hit, and a monster hits you with the first attack of a power that allows it to make two attacks as a standard action, you can use an immediate reaction before the next attack roll. The "triggering action" (that which must be completely resolved before the reaction) in that case is the attack hitting. That attack is resolved, then the immediate reaction to that attack, then the second attack (if still legal).

[Gralamin]

Look at PHB p268 again. It specifies that if you have an immediate reaction power that you can use when hit, and a monster hits you with the first attack of a power that allows it to make two attacks as a standard action, you can use an immediate reaction before the next attack roll. The "triggering action" (that which must be completely resolved before the reaction) in that case is the attack hitting. That attack is resolved, then the immediate reaction to that attack, then the second attack (if still legal).

Thats quite odd, but I see I was confused. The important thing here is your triggering off an Event not an Action.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Another point which indicates the teleport happens first is that it activates upon a hit. Press the Advantage triggers upon bloodying. If you pick it apart technically, a creature is "hit" and then you roll damage, which is where the bloodying occurs. Nit-picking, probably, but it's another point there.

[Jack_Banzai]

Personally I would allow the teleport to activate and avoid the second attack entirely. Flip it around - if a player wanted to use an immediate reaction teleport after getting hit with the first part of a multi-hit series of attacks, they would want to escape the successive attacks, wouldn't they?

[Myshlaevsky]

Personally I would allow the teleport to activate and avoid the second attack entirely. Flip it around - if a player wanted to use an immediate reaction teleport after getting hit with the first part of a multi-hit series of attacks, they would want to escape the successive attacks, wouldn't they?

I think Mando Knight hit the nail on the head, really. Press the Advantage is a distinct action from the bloodying attack, so I'm convinced the Immediate Reaction comes first.