D&D 3.5 - Maximize Stealth

[Foryn Gilnith]

What ways are there to maximize Hide and Move Silently? And how should they be used once they're had? (i.e. how to use that power smart, not Vaarsuvius-soul-splice-style).

My ideas:
Whisper Gnome
Factotum (Int mod to Dex-based skills)
Fox Totem Barbarian (Complete Champ, +4 hide/move silently)
Skill Focus/Stealthy
Darkstalker (Lords of Madness, hide from stealth/blindsight/etc)
Kruthik Claws (Magic of Incarnum) EDIT: Does not stack with armor enhancements. Drat.

[ericgrau]

Armor enchantments, up to +15 to hide and/or move silently, available in increments of +5. Cost for each = bonus squared x 100. Everything is nice, but it can't really compare.

[Foryn Gilnith]

If I want to remove luck as a factor, I need both of my stealth skills to be 20 higher than the perception skills of anyone watching. 40, if I want to snipe. And they only need to put points into one perception skill. The armor is obviously best for the top-level stuff, but it might not do alone - and I need something to hold me over in the meantime.

[Johel]

Play a class that has both as Class skill. Max them.
Play a Grig,

• It's Tiny (+8 Hide)
• It has invisibility (+20/+40 Hide)
• +5 racial bonus on Move Silently checks in a forest setting

Skill Focus (Hide)
Skill Focus (Move Silently)

EDIT : error about Tiny

[Draz74]

Dark Template: +8 Hide, +6 Move Silently (untyped bonuses), plus the Hide in Plain Sight ability. Involves either +1 LA or a magic item (cost: 10800 gp, but I can't remember if that's for the continuous version or the per-day version).

[EnnPeeCee]

If you're wanting to snipe, consider using a halfling with the 10th level Halfling Rogue level substitution from RotW.

Desert Halflings have a racial bonus to Hide on top of being small.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Something I found in Tome of Magic: Leraje, the green herald. Vestige gives +4 Hide (EDIT: Does not stack with Kruthik Claws). The Dark perma-item is there too.

I'm specifically, sort of, looking for buff spells, because my knowledge of those is incomplete. Are there any that readily stack with Greater Shadow Armor or whatever?

[Draz74]

Desert Halflings have a racial bonus to Hide on top of being small.

So do Whisper Gnomes. And they have Silence as an SLA. And racial Move Silently bonuses. And racial Spot/Listen bonuses.

[EnnPeeCee]

So do Whisper Gnomes. And they have Silence as an SLA. And racial Move Silently bonuses. And racial Spot/Listen bonuses.

But aren't a halfling.
I suggested it in case he wanted to use the halfling sub levels for better sniping.

[Foryn Gilnith]

What's the easiest way to get Hide in Plain Sight (which I'll need)?

[Johel]

Something I found in Tome of Magic: Leraje, the green herald. Vestige gives +4 Hide. The Dark perma-item is there too.

I'm specifically, sort of, looking for buff spells, because my knowledge of those is incomplete. Are there any that readily stack with Greater Shadow Armor or whatever?

If spells are allowed and that sheer stealth is the aim, I'll advise Gaseous Form. NOTHING in the description prevent you from using your skills (at least not Hide and Move Silently).

Now, if you have to snipe :
Silence, with one of the following spells

• Illusory Wall (if in-door, sit in a corner)
• Persistent Image (same as illusory wall but more flexible. Limited duration)
• Veil (can be object too)

[EnnPeeCee]

What's the easiest way to get Hide in Plain Sight (which I'll need)?

Shadowdancer 1 has it, if you don't mind fulfilling feat requirements.

[Gralamin]

What's the easiest way to get Hide in Plain Sight (which I'll need)?

Here's a near complete list of ways:

Hide in Plain Sight (or similar) (also see the "camouflage" section)
Ranger 17 - natural terrain
Scout 14 - natural terrain
Illusionist 15 (class variant), Unearthed Arcana - unconditional
Assassin 8, ecl 13 - within 10 feet of a shadow
Shadowdancer 1, ecl 8 - within 10 feet of a shadow
Nightsong Infiltrator 10, ecl 17 - natural terrain
Dark Lantern 9, ecl 14, Eberron: Five Nations - does not require natural terrain or concealment, in fact seems totally unconditional
Scar Enforcer 7, ecl 12, Races of Destiny - natural terrain
Wildrunner 5, ecl 10, Races of the Wild - natural terrain
Stalker of Kharesh 4, ecl 9, Book of Exalted Deeds, w/quarter cover or quarter concealment
Wilderness Rogue (UA)
Umbral Disciple 3, ecl 8, Magic of Incarnum, see text
Luiren Marchwarden 5, ECL 10, FR: Shining South - doesn't require cover or concealment, but only works in specific region
Shadar-Kai, race, Fiend Folio, ecl 4
Dark creature, template, Tome of Magic - doesn't require cover or concealment or terrain, but doesn't work in bright light
Shadow Creature, template, Lords of Madness - in shadowy regions only
Lurking Terror 3, ecl 8, Libris Mortis - requires cover or concealment
Paladin 6 (Shadow Cloak Knight substitution level), Champions of Valor web enhancement - near shadows
Justice of Weald and Woe 9, ecl 15, FR: Champions of Ruin - natural terrain
Planar Touchstone (The Veil), feat, Planar Handbook - near shadow
Hellbreaker 1, ecl 6, Fiendish Codex II, in any kind of darkness, not called "hide in plain sight"
Shadowspy 9, ecl 13, Complete Champion, in area of sunlight
Sentinel of Bharrai 5, ecl 10, Book of Exalted Deeds, within 10' of natural terrain
Eye of Lloth 6, ecl ?, Drow of the Underdark, within 10' of shadow
Ebonmar Infiltrator 8, ecl 13, Cityscape

Special mention
Shadowcraft Mage 1, ecl 8, Races of Stone - constant ability, provides partial concealment, allows hide checks
Collar of umbral metamorphosis, item, tome of magic - gives the Dark Creature template (see above)
Ranger 17 or Scout 14, class variant, Cityscape Web Enhancement, Hide in Plain Site in any urban environment

[Foryn Gilnith]

Whisper Gnome Factotum 3/Totemist 2/Fox Totem Barbarian 1/Umbral Disciple 3. ECL 9. Feats: Darkstalker, Stealthy, Skill Focus (Hide), Skill Focus (Move Silently). Invest 2 essentia points into Kruthik Claws, and 2 into Embrace of Shadow. ((I'd rather not rely on magic items for the bonuses. We'll be needing those to avoid magical detection methods))

Hide: +8 whisper gnome, +7 dex/int, +12 ranks, +4 fox totem, +5 feats, +8 Kruthik Claws = +44 Hide
Move Silently: +4 whisper gnome, +7 dex/int, +12 ranks, +4 fox totem, +5 feats, +8 Kruthik Claws = +40 Move Silently

If you get flaws, remove a level of Totemist and take an Incarnum feat instead. That Totemist level is only there to squeeze another +2 out of Kruthik Claws while still keeping Hide in Plain Sight. Able Sniper would also work.

If you're sniping and you roll a natural 1, your Hide check result is only 25, which means that an enemy with a Spot bonus of merely +5 could catch you. Exemplar with Skill Mastery alleviates this problem, and gives more bonuses, but there has to be more options for a Hide/Move Silently master.

[Fax Celestis]

Dark Template (Tome of Magic) is +1 LA for +10 all speeds, Hide in Plain Sight, +6 hide, +4 move silently.

[SoD]

Dark Template (Tome of Magic) is +1 LA for +10 all speeds, Hide in Plain Sight, +6 hide, +3 to awesome, +4 move silently.

Fixed it for you.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Dark Template (Tome of Magic) is +1 LA for +10 all speeds, Hide in Plain Sight, +6 hide, +4 move silently.

That doesn't work in bright light. Although neither does the Umbral Disciple's, really, because a sudden patch of shadow is suspicious... I suppose I'll have to go with the Dark Lantern at ECL 15 or so. That gives me room for all the items, anyway.

[Fax Celestis]

One-level Warlock or Dragonfire Adept dip for darkness as an at-will?

[Foryn Gilnith]

Anything relying on darkness (the spell, or Umbral Disciple, or whatever) is too unreliable. In bright light (say, sunlight) it stands out like a sore thumb, allowing area attacks (or focused magical attention); and baatezu can penetrate it.
Dark Lantern 9 seems the only way to go for true mastery.

[Curmudgeon]

Dark Template (Tome of Magic) is +1 LA for +10 all speeds, Hide in Plain Sight, +6 hide, +4 move silently.

Do note that this is one of the inferior Extraordinary versions of Hide in Plain Sight; you still need cover/concealment to allow you to Hide. The Supernatural HiPSs remove both the "not being observed" and "cover/concealment" requirements, so they're much better. Yes, you could carry around both a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (limited use of the Dark Creature Template) and an object with Deeper Darkness cast on it, but that's both blatant ("Hey! Who dimmed the lights?") and easily countered.

[Heliomance]

Marshal 1 for Motivate Dexterity - CHA to Hide/Move Silently checks as well.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Do note that this is one of the inferior Extraordinary versions of Hide in Plain Sight; you still need cover/concealment to allow you to Hide.

Damn, the Dark Lantern has that version. I suppose nothing besides Invisibility (i.e. nothing) covers everything. I suppose I meant to say Camouflage, not HiPS.

Marshal 1 for Motivate Dexterity - CHA to Hide/Move Silently checks as well.

Thanks for the tip. I GM a game with a marshal, so I'm not sure how I missed this.

[Gralamin]

Damn, the Dark Lantern has that version. I suppose nothing besides Invisibility (i.e. nothing) covers everything. I suppose I meant to say Camouflage, not HiPS.


Thanks for the tip. I GM a game with a marshal, so I'm not sure how I missed this.

Camouflage:

Camouflage
Ranger 13
Druid 13, halfling substitution level, Races of the Wild, replaces Thousand Faces
Scout 8, natural terrain only
Highland Stalker 7, ecl 12, Complete Adventurer
Stonedeath Assassin 2, ECL 7, Races of Stone, only while underground and touching stone
Dark Hunter 4 (ECL 9) Complete Warrior, only by a stone wall/etc
Forest Reeve 4, ecl 9, Complete Champion, natural terrain


Special Mention
Ranger or Scout, class variant, Cityscape Web Enhancement
Ruby Knight Vindicator 5, Tome of Battle, armored stealth

[Foryn Gilnith]

Hmph. Looks like Umbral Disciple is the mainstay, with a dip for Camouflage. The only major place where there's absolutely no explanation for a 5' square of shadow is in broad daylight in a field (or something) anyway.

[quick_comment]

The RKV has armored stealth, which makes armor check not apply to hide and move silently. There is also a spell that does the same thing for move silently.