[3.5] Is taking a level or two of Expert that bad?

[Pika...]

Occasionally I like to take a level of the NPC class Expert, since I enjoy giving a PC a bit of a skill-monkey ability without having to be a rogue or bard.

Psion with ride, handle animal, diplomacy, bluff, and Perform: (Heroic Speech)? Yes please.


However, whenever I reveal to other players that I took a level or two of Expert, or ask a DM to do it they look at me like I am crazy or out-right disallow it.


Is it really that bad of an idea?


p.s. Does anyone know if an Expert would make a playable character on itself? It said something on those line sin the entry.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

It has good skills and UMD. It's pretty good for an NPC class, almost playable infact.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Because it's quite supoptimal. Just be a Martial Rogue (UA) and select (Improved) Toughness as your bonus feat. You get +2 skill point, +1/level hp (which is easy to justify), and no random assassin training to have to explain.

Your GMs should consider just buffing expert for you, since that seems to be the only real problem. Balance, you know. It's like those gaming groups that griped about your character being too weak, except not as dramatic.

[ericgrau]

Nah that's a semi-common trick to pick up class skills. In a heavily skill laden game it could make sense. Normally it's only good for a 1 level dip though, since it doesn't give much else. Remember you get maximum # ranks = level forever. You just have to pay double for skills not on your other class list, that's all.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Because it's quite supoptimal. Just be a Martial Rogue (UA) and select (Improved) Toughness as your bonus feat. You get +2 skill point, +1/level hp (which is easy to justify), and no random assassin training to have to explain.

Instead, you have random martial training to explain.

[Zaq]

Expert is passable (I'd sooner play an Expert than a Monk), but Human Paragon is basically Expert+. Of course, that DOES dictate your race, but if you only want a couple skill-heavy levels... Human Paragon is the way to go.

[Kurald Galain]

How about a level of Beguiler? It has excellent skills.

[kamikasei]

Instead, you have random martial training to explain.

Note that he suggests spending the feat on Improved Toughness, something that requires little or no in-character explanation.

Anyway, is there any reason (besides availability) not to take Factotum over Expert?

[Thalnawr]

If the UA is in play, you could take a level or 2 of the generic Expert in there. Get a bonus feat or two, 2 good saves, and 12 skills to whatever you think you need. Plus 6 skill points per level to spend on them.

[oxybe]

expert is probably the only NPC class worth taking, honestly.

don't know why you would take it though.

[Johel]

Unless you want some pretty specific skills, Expert isn't the best choice for skillmonkey. Crunch-wise, Rogue is.

Loads of class skill, loads of skill points, sneak attack, trap finding, proficient with simple weapons and some martial weapons... all of this for 1 level. That's an Expert with more skill points and free feats.

But Fluff-wise, it might just be easier to justify your character having had a thing for [Insert specific profession, craft or weird skill here] and having worked it for now quite a time as an amateur, he has finally got a proper formation. So Expert it is, then.

[Pika...]

Hmm...

Seems like a split in opinions over this.


For those who believe it is nearly playable, how would you go about making a "passable" Expert PC? I am not really sure where to start, or what role it would play, but I find this to be a challenge I would LOVE to try.


p.s. And by UMD you meant Use Magic Device Pharaoh's Fist?


p.s.3. And I love your idea of buffing up the NPC classes Foryn. I have wanted to play an Aristocrat/Noble for years now.

[PinkysBrain]

Is it really that bad of an idea?

Yes.

What do you think adventuring is? If you go to war do you want to be in a platoon with people who spend half their basic training doing flower arrangements?

PS. as for UMD ... yes it's powerful, but lets be honest here ... people who take level of expert are not the kind of people who would make the most of UMD.

[Foryn Gilnith]

If those people are expert samurai (lol pun), then you don't want to mess with their flower arrangement. ((Note: This does not mean play an expert/samurai multiclass. Full Adept would be a better idea.))

The thing about taking a dip in Expert, for those who protest, is that there are different options. Factotum is strictly better, mechanically, and a lot of the time Martial Rogue is also better. Martial Rogue gives you skills, trapfinding (which everyone should have), and a feat like Toughness. That's easy to explain, in-character, since those are all pretty generic. The weapon proficiencies are tough, though. Factotum is even harder to explain fully, because it gives you so many abilities; but if you're that much of a stickler for detail just use all your inspiration points to boost skills, ignore your martial weapon proficiency, and call it an improved expert.

[Johel]

For those who believe it is nearly playable, how would you go about making a "passable" Expert PC? I am not really sure where to start, or what role it would play, but I find this to be a challenge I would LOVE to try.

You mean a full-Expert PC, by RAW, in a adventuring party ?
Or a Barbarian 19/Expert 1 (barbarian's just exemple, here) ?

First : FORGET ABOUT IT !! Rogue, Bard and Ranger can do the skillmonkey better than you.

Second : Depends what you want to do in the party. Letting aside the Druid, Wizard and Priest, a Fighter with Expert level(s) can be a workable PC. Not the best but workable. Lot's of feats, lot's of skills... good trade.

[Stegyre]

If the UA is in play, you could take a level or 2 of the generic Expert in there. Get a bonus feat or two, 2 good saves, and 12 skills to whatever you think you need. Plus 6 skill points per level to spend on them.

Except that gamers are discouraged from mixing the generic classes and standard classes:

If you use these generic classes, you shouldn't also use the standard character classes (or variants of those classes). You can still include prestige classes, if you wish to add that level of complexity to your game, but you may have to tweak some prestige class prerequisites that include class features not available to these classes.

srd

[Pika...]

You mean a full-Expert PC, by RAW, in a adventuring party ?
Or a Barbarian 19/Expert 1 (barbarian's just exemple, here) ?

First : FORGET ABOUT IT !! Rogue, Bard and Ranger can do the skillmonkey better than you.

Second : Depends what you want to do in the party. Letting aside the Druid, Wizard and Priest, a Fighter with Expert level(s) can be a workable PC. Not the best but workable. Lot's of feats, lot's of skills... good trade.

I see. Rats. I was hoping for Option 1.

Oh well. I guess the fighter/expert seems like an interesting idea. Perhaps an elf who crafts, performs, takes UMD/UPD, and such (I just got a vision of Link for some reason...)? How would you make this "workable" PC?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

For those who believe it is nearly playable, how would you go about making a "passable" Expert PC? I am not really sure where to start, or what role it would play, but I find this to be a challenge I would LOVE to try.

Actual class features that allow it to add bonuses to rolls and do unique things with certain skills/successful checks.

It'd be kinda like the Factotum, actually...

[Cieyrin]

You mean a full-Expert PC, by RAW, in a adventuring party ?
Or a Barbarian 19/Expert 1 (barbarian's just exemple, here) ?

First : FORGET ABOUT IT !! Rogue, Bard and Ranger can do the skillmonkey better than you.

Second : Depends what you want to do in the party. Letting aside the Druid, Wizard and Priest, a Fighter with Expert level(s) can be a workable PC. Not the best but workable. Lot's of feats, lot's of skills... good trade.

I believe he was asking what should be changed about Expert to make it a PC class, though Factotum seems to be the answer to that, really.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Human Factotum/Warblade with Able Learner. Every single skill is a class skill, always, and then use Intelligence synergy. Pick up Craft, UMD, UPD, Perform, Autohypnosis, whatever; with Warblade's 4 skill points/level. Use maneuvers to kick ass as a warrior.

Hell, Warblade seems a pretty nice Samurai. Take Craft (flower arrangements, calligraphy, everything else) with your nice skill point mass and go to town with maneuvers.

[Fax Celestis]

expert is probably the only NPC class worth taking, honestly.

don't know why you would take it though.

Adept is actually pretty good, and Aristocrat is perfectly serviceable in a social-encounter (rather than dungeon-encounter) heavy game.

[Pika...]

I believe he was asking what should be changed about Expert to make it a PC class, though Factotum seems to be the answer to that, really.

No. Actually playing an Expert... >_>

[oxybe]

there a few problems with making the expert playable

as-is he's essentially a featureless rogue or bard. i can only think of a few options if you want to make him "playable":

1) what concept do you think an "expert" should be? hyper-focused in one or two disciplines or the ultimate jack-of-all-trades? find a concept and we can work on it.

2) scrap that idea and work on making the Examplar PRC into a full class in itself, which is what i would recommend.

[Kallisti]

It's an interesting idea, but honestly? The NPC classes are so suboptimal that there's no reason to take levels in them. Anytihng they can do can be done better by at least two PC classes. That's the reason they're NPC classes: They're designed to let you make high-level NPC's who are still mechanically inferior to PC's. It reinforces the idea that the PC's are special.

[jokey665]

Why would you ever take Expert when Factotum exists?

[Foryn Gilnith]

You really, really need that +2 Will save?

[Johel]

You really, really need that +2 Will save?

Ironwill.
What ?

[SparkMandriller]

No. Actually playing an Expert... >_>

You should stop trying so hard to be OUTRAGEOUS and just play a regular class.


You'll kill way more monsters that way.

[woodenbandman]

Nuthin' wrong with the expert class. A Factotum is more effective, but if you don't know what a Factotum is or if you don't have access to Dungeonscape, Expert isn't half bad.

A "power" expert build would make use of Use Magic Device, Autohypnosis, Handle Animal, Iaijitsu Focus, and his choice of 6 other skills. The hiding/detection skills are useful, as are social skills. You can make a perfectly passable expert sneak or mounted combateer (those two rely heavily on skills and can be done without a lot of need for being a combat powerhouse).

Some fun Expert builds might include the Animal handler build. Buy animals, and use them to fight for you. Hell, you can pimp your handling check really high and handle Tarrasques (DC 78, if I recall correctly). Iaijutsu focus is an expert staple, for replacing the sneak attack of a rogue (whether or not it's successful is debatable).

You won't be good in combat, but if you're clever enough, you can make an expert that will contribute meaningfully to a party.

As an added bonus, you lose far less than other classes from dips, "rogue" prestige classes with reduced sneak attack, and the like. Try out something like Expert5/Thief Acrobat5/Exemplar10

EDIT: And check out Brilliantgameologists.com boards. We like stuff like this over there.

[oxybe]

Adept is actually pretty good, and Aristocrat is perfectly serviceable in a social-encounter (rather than dungeon-encounter) heavy game.

adept is "cleric-lite" but has a few neat tricks that you don't normally expect a divine caster to use, like a divine scorching ray or lightning bolt.

while the aristocrat does have a larger HD & weapon/armor proficiency, for a "social encounter" heavy game if i had to pick between the two NPC classes, i'd go for the Expert and grab: bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, gather information, knowledge (Architecture and engineering, geography, history, Nobility and royalty)& sense motive.

more skill points = more skills. a human expert with 8 str, 8 dex, 10 con, 16 int, 10 wis, 16 cha (24pt buy) will have all of those 10 skills maxed out every level.

personal preference, but if i had to choose between 2 non-casters with no features, i'd always go for one with the skill points.