Why Robilar's Gambit over Karmic Strike?

[Cieyrin]

I keep coming across this and wondering why they would go after Robilar's Gambit over Karmic Strike, which works mechanically better for the same effect. You take a -4 to AC over giving a +4 to attack and damage and you resolve your AoO before he does damage, as opposed to after, meaning if you drop him, hey, no damage!

I suppose this probably comes to cost in feats and stats, as Karmic Strike requires 2 feats to get to, plus a 3rd (Combat Reflexes) to use effectively, so 4 feats total, plus an Int and Dex of 13 to qualify at all. Robilar's Gambit requires just Combat Reflexes (a necessity for this trick either way) and BAB +12, saving you 2 feats and no stat requirements whatsoever (though a positive Dex is probably warranted if you're trying to make use of Combat Reflexes >_>;;). That's another thing, Robilar's Gambit can't be pulled off till mid-game, at the minimum, while a human fighter could have this up by 2nd, as opposed to 12th or later, at which point sitting there and taking it to smack back seems not necessarily the most optimal choice of action, especially when whatever has greater reach than you do, anyways.

Speaking of high BAB feats, is there really a use for Overwhelming Assault and Defensive Sweep? They seem way too niche and more the thing that a high level martial types take if they have nothing better to take at the time (which I find rather hard to believe).

So, thoughts, observations, funny stories, open berating for more short-sightedness *adjusts coke bottle lenses*?

[Eldariel]

Well, prerequisites is a big one. Few characters have feats to spare for Combat Expertise AND Dodge. Combat Reflexes though? Since Gambit/Strike is for an AoO build, you had that anyways. So, one costs 1 feat, the other 3 feats. Guess which 99% of the characters pick?

Also, Gambit doesn't require you to be hit to work, while Strike only activates while hit. So a high AC/miss chance type can say "Take -4 to AC, you still hit only on 20s while I get an AoO each time you hit me" while Karmic Strike would mean he'd take -4 to his AC to get an AoO every 20th time his opponent attacks.


Basically those two. Gambit is just easier, and less investment-requiring of the two. Though some get both, like Jack'B'Quick.

[Cieyrin]

Oh, I guessed I missed the point that Robilar's Gambit still worked regardless of whether the triggering attack succeeded or not. I could indeed see picking up Robilar's Gambit afterwards as well, continuing the Karmic Strike trend or perhaps retraining Karmic Strike for Robilar's Gambit when you hit BAB +12. Also, Jack'B'Quick?

[woodenbandman]

It's a build that stands still waiting to get hit with the expectation that each attack that lands on him will trigger enough AoOs to kill almost anything.

[Eldariel]

Oh, I guessed I missed the point that Robilar's Gambit still worked regardless of whether the triggering attack succeeded or not. I could indeed see picking up Robilar's Gambit afterwards as well, continuing the Karmic Strike trend or perhaps retraining Karmic Strike for Robilar's Gambit when you hit BAB +12. Also, Jack'B'Quick?

This is Jack B. Quick. Of course, that's not what I was talking about. Jack B. Quick also refers to
Jack B. Quick the build, who happens to be a wonderful AoO Fighter.

Basically, every time someone tries to hit him, he gets 2 counter attacks and if both hits, he gets a trip, and then if that someone HITS him, he gets other 2 hits. All the while ignoring PA.

[Thrawn183]

Yeah, as long as you can churn out anywhere near as much damage per hit as the other guy, you want robilar's gambit over karmic strike. Well... at least so long as you have the ability to make enough attack of opportunities.

[9mm]

Remember that Karmic and Robliar's don't stack, you can only use one or the other per custserv. Any build that can keep things where they are makes great use out of defencive sweep so it see's play in lockdown and variant J.B.Q builds.

[AslanCross]

Are there Warblade/Fighter versions of Jack B. Quick?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Remember that Karmic and Robliar's don't stack, you can only use one or the other per custserv. Any build that can keep things where they are makes great use out of defencive sweep so it see's play in lockdown and variant J.B.Q builds.

Custserv is wrong. They have differrent trigger times, different trigger actions, and different effects. There is no reason they wouldn't stack.

[Foryn Gilnith]

No, he said "one or the other per custserv". That means that for each custserv, you may only use one or the other. :P

I'd agree with Sstoopidtallkid. Customer Service has contradicted itself and the RAW before. Their interpretation is no more valid than yours, or mine, or the GM's.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

WotC Customer Service: 100% official, 0% correct^TM

[Pie Guy]

One's a helpless schmoe working WotC Custserv! The other doesn't play the game! Together they give out rulings that make absolutely no sense at all!

[quick_comment]

The answer is, as noted above, both. Also take warblade levels for the counter that lets you take a 2nd AoO against a single triggering action.