GURPS and why you should be playing it!

[Kizara]

Since my group and I have literally undergone a renisance in our roleplaying after discovering GURPS, I felt it necessary to share its awesomeness with others.

We were getting dissatisfied with 3.5, and even with my huge Tome of House Rules project (60 pages of 10pt font), it still had issues and I was getting tired of dealing with them. Our other DM (aside from me) couldn't deal with characters higher level then 10 or so, and the many gamey aspects of the system that we at first tolerated (hey its way better then freeform) started to grate on us. We weren't enjoying RPing as much, and noone other then me really liked optimization, although they did like character customization.

So, I almost stumbled upon GURPS and although it was pretty intimidating at first, and it has its drawbacks, its like we are 13 again and just discovering how awesome RPing can be now that we have a system that actually lets us play-out our character's actions instead of relying on abstract resolution.

Below follows my generic rant, that many of you may have seen, trying to 'sell' you on the primary virtues of GURPS.

Please, if you have any questions on the system ask and I will do my best to answer them. I am still newish to the system (only had about 10 sessions of it now), but I can probably answer most basic questions. Also, if you would like to relate GURPS to DnD (any version) and discuss it in this light, I have no problems with it, and I will often relate it to 3.5 DnD myself as its my main benchmark.

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I highly reccomend GURPS!

From someone that started with, played and still is generally rather fond of 3.x DnD, I can attest that GURPS is awesome in the following ways:

1) Less balance headaches! Sure, its not completely gone, but its an easier foundation to start with to houserule problems away.

2) More versitile! If you like homebrewing even a little bit, you'll love GURPS because you almost homebrew each character in that you can customize each trait, advantage (kinda like Feats) and so forth to a very large degree.

Which leads us too...

3) More character customization! Between making interesting personality elements with disadvantages (like Klepomania and Klutz, or Bloodlust and Callous, just to name 4 of like 100 options), choosing EXACTLY the skills you want (no more class skills, or classes at all for that matter), make EXACTLY the character you want to play!.

4) More tactical, interesting and diverse combat! Like combat in 3.5? Ever use anything from Unearthed Arcana? Well this is going to be like crack for you! Combat involves active defenses (shield blocks, dodges and parries) and an actual hit is huge! With comprensive rules for damage types, injuries, disabling limbs, hit locations, layered armor, per-second rounds that allow for maximum simultaniety and more, its the deepest, best combat simulation that isn't a pain in the arse to run!

5) Its not 4ed! AT ALL! If you dislike 4E for ANY reason beyond "they stopped making 3.x stuff", you'll like GURPS, as its literally the exact opposite design direction.

Which leads to...

6) Its realistic! Most of the game is designed to be realistic and simulationist-oriented. There are rules (and comprehensive and good ones) for more cinematic, and/or silly games, the default assumption is a more gritty and realistic RPG. I can't even begin to list how many rules it has that are more realistic then 3ed. Also, it isn't as hyper-gritty as some systems. Although far more realistic then DnD, it still isn't as random or brutal as other systems.

7) Its easier to run! While its not easier to LEARN, its actually far easier to run as you don't have to keep track of dozens of bonuses, skills don't become totally broken after 6th level (there is no 6th level, and the skill system in general is way better, if a bit finely cut for my taste). Also, it uses 3d6 instead of d20, so its less luck-oriented and crits are less common-place. However, when they do come up (especially in combat), its a BIG deal, as you can't defend against a crit and it can easily do more or more lethal damage.

8) Its more adaptable! Want to run a sci-fi game with fantasy magic, lightsaber swords, phasors and Firefly-class transports? Its never been easier.

9) As much simluation as you want! The rules are set up that they go very deep, but you can use as many as you want. You don't have to use the hit locations, bleeding, and tactical movement rules (for instance). The game works perfectly fine (if shallow, it feels like DnD) this way, but it works that much better with all the 'optional' rules in play. These rules aren't like the lame Death From Massive Damage 3ed rule, they are progressive levels of simulation.


To reiterate: no or little gamism, no MMORPG conventions, no "rule of cool" bullcrap (except for some things that make a point of saying "this is cinematic, not for use in realistic games"), less caster imbalance (and its far, far easier to fix and control), a much better, more tactical and more immersive combat system, better and more customizable character options, etc etc... awesome!!!


Now, there ARE some downsides:

1) Its not as plug-and-play. If you want to say, play a Druid, the game supports this, but you have to do some homework and effort in putting it together. The more unique or specialized the concept the more this comes up. Its rather rewarding when you do tho. I can provide you with some examples if you like.

2) The fineness of how the skills are cut can be annoying. Is it really neccessary to have pickpocketing, filtch and sleight-of-hand to all be seperate skills? You gain a whole lot more then you lose here. And while playing skill monkeys can be expensive, its also more valuable to your group because you really contribute in ways that others need and can't be easily replaced by magic.

3) Its a lot to take in. The amount of options and the complexity of the rules (compared to the basic concepts of 3ed) are a bit more of a learning curve and is a bit more intimidating then 3ed. However, there's quite a bit less rules-lawyering needed in general, as the rules are almost to a whole very natural and intuitive. More then once I have thought "I don't know how they do X, but I would do it like 'such and such'." and then found the actual rule for it and been impressed that it was almost exactly what I already had in mind.

[Kizara]

These examples are more geared towards providing discussion on why the combat system is so much fun, then providing you a hard working understanding of it.

I'll probably provide those kind of step-by-step including all details style of examples later, especially if they are asked for.

Example 1, talking about combat options:

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Here is a great but very simple example:

Say you want to play a mediveal warrior. You think it would be really awesome to dual-wield broadswords (longswords, etc).

So, I'm not going to walk you through all of character creation, but here's some things you'll love about playing your character:

1) Your weapon choice, and how you use it, is very realistic. The damage type isn't a minor point, and it greatly effects how your hits hurt your opponents, and sometimes how well you can punch through armor DR.

2) You don't have to jump through hoops to use 2 weapons at once, and it opens some defensive options (more parrying) while closing others (no shield), and gives you some more offensive options (extra attack) while removing others (don't have a reach weapon).

3) As #2 aludes to, combat FEELS like actual combat! You defend not using "AC" or "Armor defense" or other nonsense, but actual defensive moves like parrying (that's based directly on your skill with your weapon), dodging (which is based on your character's speed), and blocking (which is based on your shield skill).

What if you want to make a feinting attack? You don't need a feat or something to do this, and it resolves exactly as you'd imagine: You make opposed weapon skill rolls, and if you beat your opponent your margin of victory is subracted from his next defensive roll against you. This is an example of a typical GURPS rule: logical, intuitive, and sensible while accurately simulating the required forces involved.

All combat moves that you can perform do not require you to have a feat, power, ability, whatever to do them, only enough weapon skill to pull it off. And its not like "you must have skill 15 to do this", an example:

If you want to hit someone in the neck, its -5 to your weapon skill roll. So if you had a 15 skill, you'll have to roll 10 or under to hit. If you 'hit', then your opponent can try to defend, if he can't block or dodge your blow, then you just hit him in the neck! You deal additional damage if you have a cutting weapon (like a broadsword) and if you deal enough damage you can decapitate him!

In general, combat is dangerous (but not crazy-dangerous you can never do it), requires tactics and really makes you feel like you are roleplaying a swordsman! There is so much more I can say here, but I'm trying to be at least a bit brief.

4) Other people aren't automatically just as good as a swordsman as you. As there is no 'levels', and most people who are not warriors will not invest as much into hp, strength, weapon skill and so forth as you, the difference in your ability will be very apparent: as it should be! Also, your choices in tactics and how good you are at playing your swordsman make a huge difference in your effectiveness, as opposed to your level and your d20 roll (not that there's no luck, but you are far less of a slave to it).

Example 2, discussing why the combat system is more realistic and not as abstract as, say, the DnD system is:

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Well, the thing is there is far less 'abstraction' then any other system I've used. To me, this, and the manner in which your choices and tactics effect the outcome of the combat gives it a more immersive simulation then other, far more abstract, systems.

Although there are many contributing factors for this, the major ones are the use of active defenses and good hit location rules.

When your combat involes slugging away at HP, and trying to combine alot of abstract bonuses to gain an advantage in to-hit, damage and armor, it can be fun, but when you take a step back it doesn't feel like an actual sword fight (I'm referencing 3e here btw). When your combat involves an actual exchange of parries, dodges and blocks and when a single decent shot can end a fight, it feels a great deal more realistic.

For an example:

1) Your opponent has, say 15 HP (a reasonable amount for anyone not a heroic or veteren warrior).

-they are using a quarter staff (one of the few weapons that give a parry bonus, in this case +2) and their parry comes out to 13 (a rather high parry number).

-They are wearing only light scale with cloth underpadding on their arms (did I mention it has layered armor? With fairly good rules for it? another thing I love), so they only have 4 DR there.

2) You have 18 weapon skill, being a quite skilled warrior (18 is fairly high), and you want to target his arm (-2 to skill), and also lower his ability to defend against your attack, so you use Deceptive Attack (a technique or move, not a power or 'special use' ability) 2, giving you another -4 to skill but him -2 to his parry.

You roll against skill 12 (a bit risky, but doable roll), and make it with a 10 roll. You opponent rolls against his parry, which you lowered to 11, and fails with a 13.

You hit his arm, and because you have a slashing weapon that deals cutting damage, you deal 1.5x what makes it through his DR. This ends up being 5 x 1.5 = 7. This is over equal to or over half his hp, which is enough to cripple his arm (possibly permanently, he has to make a Health roll to avoid that), making it completely unusable to him for the short term and forcing him to drop whatever he is holding.

This doesn't take into account the many actions spent parrying or otherwise defending against each-other, the game of whether to use actions like All-Out Attack (Determined) to try to get a hit past his defenses but giving up your ability to defend until your next turn, thus taking a big risk. There's just so much more strategy that goes into it.

[Kizara]

(reserved for teaching-oriented examples and walkthroughs)

This is my last reserved post, feel free to post now and discuss, ask questions of, and generally talk about GURPS.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Sounds like a lot of fun! What are the books you need to play?

[Kizara]

Sounds like a lot of fun! What are the books you need to play?

GURPS 'core' is its Basic Set, which are officially titled:

GURPS Basic Set: Characters

and

GURPS Basic Set: Campaigns

The first is essentially the PHB, and the second the DMG. While you can play a game with the first, all the optional rules (including all the tactical combat goodies) in the campaigns book make it well wroth your while.

And while GURPS does have a decent amount of suppliment books, you hardly need them as the core gives you quite a bit to play with. However, when you are ready for more options (mainly in the form of expanded or more detailed rules) for different aspects of the game, you can easily pick up some of the very well-put together splat books out for the system.

I will however say that if you are looking to play a modern or sci-fi game, then picking up the appropriate splat book is a bit more needed, as the basic game is more geared towards fairly realistic medival fantasy then other genres, and thus the options for them are a bit less (they are there though). Its particularly noticable in the equipment section. One cool thing to note about rules for those areas is that guns feel exactly as different compared crossbows, swords or fireballs as they should be.

[PinkysBrain]

Talking about mundane combat is not the way to pull in D&D players (well except for those core fighter lovers). Just to head you off, talking about a game heavily based around social encounters and skill challenges isn't either ;)

How well does it do games where the mages have a good grasp of a dozen or more spells, where melee characters can move around like quicksilver and cause earthquakes pounding the ground? (Also since it gurps, how well does that mix with technology?)

How forced are you into specializing into 1 or 2 knock out combos if you optimize a bit? In D&D each level unlocks new options, not just making the old ones better. This is generally what I fear in level-less point buy systems, even with diminishing turns, specialization and only very slow evolution of the character as points increase partly because of it. (Conceptually I'm more fond of the level based caps from M&M.)

What about resurrection? In any game with high lethality (which includes D&D with a DM which doesn't pull his punches) it's pretty much impossible to have a long term hack and slash campaign with character continuity without resurrection.

Convince me it can do high fantasy hack and slash well :) (Don't tell me I shouldn't like that.)

[Kizara]

Talking about mundane combat is not the way to pull in D&D players (well except for those core fighter lovers). Just to head you off, talking about a game heavily based around social encounters and skill challenges isn't either ;)

Well, a common thing heard is that playing a fighter is too boring and doesn't have good options. I've tried to show that in GURPS this is far from the case.

How well does it do games where the mages have a good grasp of a dozen or more spells, where melee characters can move around like quicksilver and cause earthquakes pounding the ground? (Also since it gurps, how well does that mix with technology?)

Like most systems, it is more stable at lower power levels and point totals, but it still handles high-powered games (and has many rules designed for the superhero style play you describe) better then DnD in my opinon.

Magic is difficult, personally taxing, takes time to do, but is really quite powerful. Also, magic competes well with guns, and sci-fi melee options keep them as competitive as they should be. For instance, in the style of superhero game you describe, a bruiser might buy a very high movement speed, personal DR, a very high strength and some additional HP on top of that, and be able to rush ranged using characters to get in range of his powerful attacks.

Thing is, I need a bit better of an idea of exactly what you had in mind in character abilities and power levels before I can really acurately answer your question. For instance, I can say alot more about the magic system, both in general and in different contexts.

How forced are you into specializing into 1 or 2 knock out combos if you optimize a bit? (This is generally what I fear in level-less point buy systems, even with diminishing turns, specialization and only very slow evolution of the character as points increase partly because of it ... conceptually I'm more fond of the level based caps from M&M.)

What power level are you looking at? At very high power levels and point totals (400-500+, "heroic fantasy generally being in the 150-200 range), this does become a bit of an issue, as if someone invests such a huge amount of points in an offensive style, it means they can't also have another offensive style equally as strong. Keep in mind we are talking about pretty crazy stuff here, like having a 20 level, 200 pt Innate attack that does like 30d6 damage and... argh, lets just say that playing super hero games have... considerably more to talk about as far as options go, because more points= more posibilities, and very large amounts of points= system starts to become less stable.

Convince me it can do high fantasy hack and slash well :) (Don't tell me I shouldn't like that.)

Now, for me, high fantasy is stuff like 3.5e DnD. I will say now that GURPS is designed to be a bit of a lower-magic setting then 3.5.

The magic system is less imbalanced and running-away crazy as it is in 3.5, but its still VERY versitile and quite powerful. The difference is that power comes at a cost, instead of being basically free.

Here's an example: in GURPS, you have spell trees (like prerequisite trees) instead of 'levels', and the basic spells in the fire college are Create Fire, Shape Fire, and Ignite Fire; and they are as open-ended as they sound.

As far as hack n slash, melee can buy (point-econonmical) advantages that make them resistant to magic, or to certain effects that might be created by magic (like fire, posions), or just have a fat hp total. I've talked about the combat system above, and its far more interesting and rewarding then the dnd-style combat system.

Here's an example of a more high-fantasy melee character I created recently:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122395

In many ways he has much of the abilties that a DnD paladin has.

EDIT: As you edited in your question about ressurection, I'll address that now.

Healing spells, like the rest of the magic system, take some building up the prerequisite tree before you are a potent healer. There are two reasons for this:

1) At lower point levels (where you won't have as much of the tree), people don't have many hit points, and thus healing magic is as cooresponding powerful. There are spells that let you do all the healing-oriented things that a 3.5 cleric could do in there, but it takes some effort to get to them. Also, like all magic, healing costs fatigue points and has casting times.

2) Balance, as in a system with fairly realistic lethality, if healing was easy and commonplace, it would somewhat defeat the point.

As for ressurection itself, it takes 300 fatigue points base (that's an unbelievable amount), has a LOT of spell prerequisites (basically at the top of the healing college tree) and takes 2 hours to cast. However, its high costs can be mitigated (like most spells) by having a high level in the spell. Also, there are special rituals and the like that you can do to mitigate costs.

You see, spells are skills with special rules governing them, so you can 'master' a spell like ressurection, making you much better at it then someone that simply knows it. And in this case, its almost necessary.

[PinkysBrain]

Here's an example: in GURPS, you have spell trees (like prerequisite trees) instead of 'levels'

Trees are good, they enforce diversification ... do the other systems in the game have branching as well?

and the basic spells in the fire college are Create Fire, Shape Fire, and Ignite Fire; and they are as open-ended as they sound.

Open ended in what way? You mean like the DM specifying an ad hoc DC when you try to do something not explicitly in the spell description?

Here's an example of a more high-fantasy melee character I created recently

Pacts seem necessary to really open up options at normal point buys ranges but they require intentionally not making optimal use of them to not break the game ... true?

[PinkysBrain]

As for ressurection itself, it takes 300 fatigue points base (that's an unbelievable amount), has a LOT of spell prerequisites (basically at the top of the healing college tree) and takes 2 hours to cast. However, its high costs can be mitigated (like most spells) by having a high level in the spell. Also, there are special rituals and the like that you can do to mitigate costs.

In D&D raising the dead becomes possible at the same level as the early save or sucks ... Charm Monster for instance. Is that true in GURPS as well, or is resurrection only possible for Elminster type casters?

[Kizara]

Trees are good, they enforce diversification ... do the other systems in the game have branching as well?

Not really. But many of them have progressive levels. Other character options are fairly straightforward.

Open ended in what way? You mean like the DM specifying an ad hoc DC when you try to do something not explicitly in the spell description?

Create fire creates real, magical fire in the area you specify (and you can always make a bigger area by powering your magic with more fatigue/hit points; same with duration). This fire ignites things, and burns with no fuel.

Shape fire allows you to shape and move fire (magically or non) in any way you desire. Spreading it out causes it to deal less damage, and it moves at 5 yards per second if you are shuffling it. In all ways its treated as magic fire that you shape. Its about as hazardous as normal fire.

Note that these are the two most basic spells of the fire school, but I'm showing you them because they demonstrate that magic is versitile and limited by things like a mage's ability to cast it well (skill level, magery level, fatigue points), not arbitary hard limitations.

Pacts seem necessary to really open up options at normal point buys ranges but they require intentionally not making optimal use of them to not break the game ... true?

Well, to an extent. They are fairly self-balancing, but in general the system requires a modicrum of restraint. You don't have to deliberately pick bad options or refrain from obvious good choices, but if you go way out of your way to find a loophole and be abusive, ESPECIALLY at higher point levels, you can break the game, yes.

[Yahzi]

In D&D raising the dead becomes possible at the same level as the early save or sucks ... Charm Monster for instance. Is that true in GURPS as well, or is resurrection only possible for Elminster type casters?

Well, you could theoretically have a magic item that gave you 300 pts of spell power, meaning you could cast Ress every couple of days or so. I don't recall exactly - it's a been a while.

Since Kiz has talked about the good points of GURPS, let me point out a few flaws:

1. 20th level (500 pts or so) characters can be killed in a single round by a single 1st level (20 pts) character with a high chance of success, given easily available equipment.

2. Even if you rule out sniper rifles and bazookas, a super-high level character can still be wounded and eventually killed by as little as 2 or 3 dozen 1st level characters.

3. One of my 3.5 players currently has a character that can auto-kill any number of creatures within 20 ft. Also, nothing can get closer than 20 ft. Nor can anything move out of his 20 ft range. And he flies. At 10th level. Tell me how you can do that in GURPS!

4. GURPS magic does not create an absolute need for a long list of abilities/magic items that every creature over CR 10 level has to have or just die instantly. (Non-detection, Mind Blank, Protection from possession, ability to hit non-corporeal creatures, Anticipate Teleport, etc.).

5. Even worse, GURPS Bestairy does not describe a huge collection of high-rank monsters which lack those required abilities, with no way to get them.

6. Monsters and NPCs in GURPS follow the same rules as players. This means that NPCs of equal level and equipment can actually defeat the players on a semi-regular basis. There is really no mechanism in GURPS for spoon-feeding parties a fixed series of encounters which are meant to consume a quarter of their "resources". In GURPS, all combats are dangerous for the players!

7. Feat selections rarely lead to insta-locks, where the PCs are unstoppable as long as they are allowed to perform their signature move over and over again, regardless of situation/environment/common sense.

I could go on, but I think you get the point. How is anybody supposed to have fun in a game like that?

[Thatguyoverther]

Not to seem derogatory but isn't GURPS just Hero System light?

I don't know if you've ever played the system but Hero System seems to do all of the things GURPS can do but more so. On the other hand all the disadvantages of GURPS apply to Hero System doubly.

[Kizara]

In D&D raising the dead becomes possible at the same level as the early save or sucks ... Charm Monster for instance. Is that true in GURPS as well, or is resurrection only possible for Elminster type casters?

Honestly, in part I don't know. I've only been using the system for 10 sessions, and have not pursued the magic system in great depth.

I would say that ressurection, based on the pre-reqs, is fairly epic though. 300 FP is crazy, and even at 30 skill (grand-mastery level in most games), its only 3/4 reduction, its 75, which is concievable but still very high.

The end of most spell trees have a save-or-die, but I'm not familiar with all of them. In general, there's less 'win' buttons for magic unless you are pretty creative.

[Fridrik Bj]

Since my group and I have literally undergone a renisance in our roleplaying after discovering GURPS, I felt it necessary to share its awesomeness with others.

I'm glad you decided to soldier on through the steep learning curve and embrace GURPS. It sounds like you have fallen in love...

[Lord Herman]

The OP is correct. GURPS is awesome.

I've started playing around with it a couple of months ago, and I'm amazed at what it can do, and how well it does it. I've always found D&D to be a bit too cinematic, so GURPS' realistic and gritty options really appeal to me.

Now I've started making a GURPS adaptation of the Warhammer 40k setting, as presented by Dan Abnett and Sandy Mitchell's novels. So mostly focused around the Imperial Guard and the Inquisition, but with the option of playing just about anything from Space Marines to Tau Fire Warriors. It works really well, as the system fits the setting perfectly; lots of rules about dying horribly, losing your mind, and even exact rules about how much burn damage you need to do to set a heretic alight.

[PinkysBrain]

5. Even worse, GURPS Bestairy does not describe a huge collection of high-rank monsters which lack those required abilities, with no way to get them.

They all have see invisibility and can fly or what? (I assume invisibility and flying are still in there, a bit too iconic to leave out.)

[Kizara]

Not to seem derogatory but isn't GURPS just Hero System light?

I don't know if you've ever played the system but Hero System seems to do all of the things GURPS can do but more so. On the other hand all the disadvantages of GURPS apply to Hero System doubly.

I really can't imagine a system that is even close to runable that has more depth then GURPS 4e (especially including suppliments).

But no, I haven't played Hero System, so I can't really answer your question.

I will however say that GURPS is as GURPSy as it needs to be, and anything more then its highest levels of complexity would be essentially maddening to run.

Feel free to prove me wrong.

[Kizara]

Well, you could theoretically have a magic item that gave you 300 pts of spell power, meaning you could cast Ress every couple of days or so. I don't recall exactly - it's a been a while.

Since Kiz has talked about the good points of GURPS, let me point out a few flaws:

1. 20th level (500 pts or so) characters can be killed in a single round by a single 1st level (20 pts) character with a high chance of success, given easily available equipment.

I'd like an example of this, as I basically feel you are flat wrong and that a 20 pts character (I wouldn't even call that lvl 1, 20 pts as defined by the system is something like a small child) could not attack anything with a high chance of success, since he cannot even buy up a single weapon skill high enough to have a good chance of making a solid attack.

2. Even if you rule out sniper rifles and bazookas, a super-high level character can still be wounded and eventually killed by as little as 2 or 3 dozen 1st level characters.

While not as preposterous as the first claim, I still doubt this and am asking you to provide some sort of evidence or example to back up this claim. Also, "super-high level" needs to quantified.

3. One of my 3.5 players currently has a character that can auto-kill any number of creatures within 20 ft. Also, nothing can get closer than 20 ft. Nor can anything move out of his 20 ft range. And he flies. At 10th level. Tell me how you can do that in GURPS!

The database backup ate the post I had that went into this in detail, but suffice it to say that I think that even in 3.5 such a character is ludicrous and is almost certinally using a combination of cheese that I would ban (individually, let alone the combination) if it were my game.

Also, GURPS has AoE attacks that can kill low-hp, weak creatures by the masses. It has repulsion and fear effects. And superman-style flight is 40pts for twice your base move in speed.

4. GURPS magic does not create an absolute need for a long list of abilities/magic items that every creature over CR 10 level has to have or just die instantly. (Non-detection, Mind Blank, Protection from possession, ability to hit non-corporeal creatures, Anticipate Teleport, etc.).

Um... ok? I concede this point. Especially as GURPS doesn't really have CR 10 creatures.

5. Even worse, GURPS Bestairy does not describe a huge collection of high-rank monsters which lack those required abilities, with no way to get them.

While I have not pursued the GURPS Bestiary books in depth, I will say that they follow the same rules as other characters (after all, monsters are just another kind of character) and have more or less have access to the same abilities that a character could, as logic would dictate.

6. Monsters and NPCs in GURPS follow the same rules as players. This means that NPCs of equal level and equipment can actually defeat the players on a semi-regular basis. There is really no mechanism in GURPS for spoon-feeding parties a fixed series of encounters which are meant to consume a quarter of their "resources". In GURPS, all combats are dangerous for the players!

Good? I always hated any manner of "spoon-feeding" or fixed concepts of encounters. I run deep and immersive games that my players pursue their goals in, and overcome challenges; they sometimes also contain an overarching meta-plot. Not to say I don't have encounters, or combat, just that its not... procedurally generated?

7. Feat selections rarely lead to insta-locks, where the PCs are unstoppable as long as they are allowed to perform their signature move over and over again, regardless of situation/environment/common sense.

I could go on, but I think you get the point. How is anybody supposed to have fun in a game like that?

Yes, the system is intended to be largely balanced and game-breaking loopholes are rare and are often the result of intentional and malicious abusing of the system.

I assume you are being satirical in this post in general, as you are basically saying "GURPS is bad because its not horribly, unplayably broken like 3.5 at its wrost!" which I have a hard time viewing with a straight face. If you honestly, actually have these complaints then I'm afraid GURPS is not for you... cause, you know, its playable...

[Thatguyoverther]

Feel free to prove me wrong.

I just might have to do that.

I'm thinking about running a game here, provided I can fine enough. If you find yourself in possession of a book and the creation software you should let me know.

[Kizara]

They all have see invisibility and can fly or what? (I assume invisibility and flying are still in there, a bit too iconic to leave out.)

Both Invisibility and Fly are present in Advantages and spells. So, depending on how you see your character, you could be...

A ghost that can go incorporal/invisible (the rules for this are even better then the already-decent 3.5 ones) and fly.

A mage that has some knowledge of Illusion and Air schools (both spells are mid-high tier on their trees).

An angel with big feathered wings, but who can hide them sometimes (rules for this), and acts as a subtle influence on the modern world (can turn invisible).

Etc...

[T.G. Oskar]

I played GURPS once (actually, it was my introduction to tabletop roleplaying), and I can say it's...well, different. It's pretty generic and universal (what the G and U in GURPS intend to represent), in that you can meld it into what you desire. If you want high fantasy, it allows for high fantasy; but if you want cyberpunk, it allows for cyberpunk. It has supplements, but those are mostly for alternate rules (I used the Religion rules to remake my first and only character, since it was better for him than the base rules)

Mostly, it works like most point-based games in that you make a character based upon a same set of points. It can be standard (about 30-50 points), High, (up to 100?), and all the way to Supers (300-500, and that's for superheroes and whatnot). Those points can be used for mostly anything; from insanely powerful mages and clerics, to your typical superhero, to a cyborg with loads of enhancements, to a pilot wielding a mecha (and yes, I saw a Supers campaign that had lots of superheroes and one rich guy who wanted to pilot a mecha; the campaign ended and the guy still didn't had his mecha ready, because he asked for too much). Mostly, it works somewhat like WoD/Storyteller's/Storytelling in that you buy from Attributes, Talents, Spells and Powers through points, and you can get extra points through Flaws and Quirks. Quirks are pretty minor and are actually ways to encourage roleplaying (like always saying "Jumpin' Jehosaphat!" as an expression of surprise), but Flaws are pretty rough (between low level flaws such as minor mental disorders to such things as Terminal Illnesses, a Dependant who can't protect itself jack and ALWAYS or nearly ALWAYS has to be rescued, and whatnot). Talents are your basic feats + skills + Abilities + Backgrounds all in one: you get a Talent, you can use Magic, or Clerical Magic, or Psionics, or have Superpowers, or just be Badass Normal. Now, this is an old version I'm speaking off; dunno if it has changed a bit.

First time I played it, I wasn't as polished as I am now, and I began late in the game. I recall having something along the lines of 10 St(rength), 10 D(e)x(terity), about 12 In(telligence) and 13 H(eal)t(h), but with a special item of the GM I grew up to be quite a badass. I could cast spells from the Healing, Creation, Light and I think two more spheres, IIRC (I had some trouble working with the concept of religion, mostly because being a complete noob I was paired with help with someone who's obsessed with details; oddly enough he's one great pal), plus was quite badass with a Bastard Sword and heavy armor. And yeah, I was pretty much a Paladin (technically, the way the church's hierarchy was determined placed me exactly as a Paladin, with stuff such as Bishop and whatnot as later choices)

Battle is pretty straightforward, actually. IIRC, movement was based off Dex, attack was based off Strength, you can cast as many spells as you like so as long as you don't fall fatigued (which was based off Health), the power of spells is based off Int...the usual. Attacking from the back gave a tactical advantage, being with basic heavy armor and shield gave a pretty potent defense, and you can't die unless you failed your Health check (and with 13-14 Health, it was nearly impossible to fail!) Technically, there's no dependance on magic items, but you can key off your powers to depend on the items, which is considered a minor Flaw IIRC.

It's been so long, I just can't recall very well how the system went, but it's pretty solid. If anything, while it's pretty easy to GM and pretty easy to play, it requires a bit more of roleplaying and solid storytelling in order to make it work, as IIRC the book is designed to not have any fluff. It's almost entirely crunch, with light fluff to give ideas on what you can do, but mostly the GM makes the story and that's it. Supplements are not extra fluff, but different types of crunch.

Oh, and it's not that easy to break, either. Also, IIRC, there are different ways to get the same spells (Resurrection isn't, or at least wasn't a Healing only spell; it was also a Necromancy spell)

[Cybren]

1. 20th level (500 pts or so) characters can be killed in a single round by a single 1st level (20 pts) character with a high chance of success, given easily available equipment.

Except if the 500 pt character put some points in to DR, or Unkillable, or Supernatural Durability or... or.... or..

Yes, if you build a 500 point character that is just 500 points of mundane skills and advantages, your character will still be mortal. Because the GM has decided to run a high power game while still keeping characters mortal on purpose.

2. Even if you rule out sniper rifles and bazookas, a super-high level character can still be wounded and eventually killed by as little as 2 or 3 dozen 1st level characters.

This applies to both this and the first item. There are no levels in GURPS. Even trying to correlate point costs to levels doesn't work. The point value of a character does not correspond to combat ability. Monsters do not have point values.

3. One of my 3.5 players currently has a character that can auto-kill any number of creatures within 20 ft. Also, nothing can get closer than 20 ft. Nor can anything move out of his 20 ft range. And he flies. At 10th level. Tell me how you can do that in GURPS!

Toxic Attack with malediction, emanation, and uncontrollable. Flight.

4. GURPS magic does not create an absolute need for a long list of abilities/magic items that every creature over CR 10 level has to have or just die instantly. (Non-detection, Mind Blank, Protection from possession, ability to hit non-corporeal creatures, Anticipate Teleport, etc.).

I don't really understand what this means

5. Even worse, GURPS Bestairy does not describe a huge collection of high-rank monsters which lack those required abilities, with no way to get them.

1- GURPS Bestiary is not a "canonical" book of this is how you build creatures. The kind of enemies you throw at your PCs should be tailored for their abilities. GURPS characters, campaigns, players, and GMs vary too much to have a monster manual that can accomplish everything. Also, GURPS Bestiary hasn't been updated for the 4th edition.

6. Monsters and NPCs in GURPS follow the same rules as players. This means that NPCs of equal level and equipment can actually defeat the players on a semi-regular basis. There is really no mechanism in GURPS for spoon-feeding parties a fixed series of encounters which are meant to consume a quarter of their "resources". In GURPS, all combats are dangerous for the players!

Yeah, duh. You're in combat. If you're running a campaign where the PCs aren't terribly more powerful than the average bear/person/whatever, then more fights will be lethal. Unless you let PCs take advantages that bolsters their defenses. Or you use mook rules, which the basic set provides examples of (mooks can't take active defenses and a successful attack always kills them)

7. Feat selections rarely lead to insta-locks, where the PCs are unstoppable as long as they are allowed to perform their signature move over and over again, regardless of situation/environment/common sense.

I don't know what this one means either.

I could go on, but I think you get the point. How is anybody supposed to have fun in a game like that?

I think most of this betrays a lack of understanding of the (admittedly intimidating) GURPS rules.

[Kizara]

I played GURPS once (actually, it was my introduction to tabletop roleplaying), and I can say it's...well, different. It's pretty generic and universal (what the G and U in GURPS intend to represent), in that you can meld it into what you desire. If you want high fantasy, it allows for high fantasy; but if you want cyberpunk, it allows for cyberpunk. It has supplements, but those are mostly for alternate rules (I used the Religion rules to remake my first and only character, since it was better for him than the base rules)

Mostly, it works like most point-based games in that you make a character based upon a same set of points. It can be standard (about 30-50 points), High, (up to 100?), and all the way to Supers (300-500, and that's for superheroes and whatnot). Those points can be used for mostly anything; from insanely powerful mages and clerics, to your typical superhero, to a cyborg with loads of enhancements, to a pilot wielding a mecha (and yes, I saw a Supers campaign that had lots of superheroes and one rich guy who wanted to pilot a mecha; the campaign ended and the guy still didn't had his mecha ready, because he asked for too much). Mostly, it works somewhat like WoD/Storyteller's/Storytelling in that you buy from Attributes, Talents, Spells and Powers through points, and you can get extra points through Flaws and Quirks. Quirks are pretty minor and are actually ways to encourage roleplaying (like always saying "Jumpin' Jehosaphat!" as an expression of surprise), but Flaws are pretty rough (between low level flaws such as minor mental disorders to such things as Terminal Illnesses, a Dependant who can't protect itself jack and ALWAYS or nearly ALWAYS has to be rescued, and whatnot). Talents are your basic feats + skills + Abilities + Backgrounds all in one: you get a Talent, you can use Magic, or Clerical Magic, or Psionics, or have Superpowers, or just be Badass Normal. Now, this is an old version I'm speaking off; dunno if it has changed a bit.

Its basically as you describe it. The general tenets of the system haven't changed, only refined. You can take disadvantages without completely hosing yourself if you use some sense with it. But if you want to play a terminally ill angsty mage or something, you get the points for your trouble.

First time I played it, I wasn't as polished as I am now, and I began late in the game. I recall having something along the lines of 10 St(rength), 10 D(e)x(terity), about 12 In(telligence) and 13 H(eal)t(h), but with a special item of the GM I grew up to be quite a badass. I could cast spells from the Healing, Creation, Light and I think two more spheres, IIRC (I had some trouble working with the concept of religion, mostly because being a complete noob I was paired with help with someone who's obsessed with details; oddly enough he's one great pal), plus was quite badass with a Bastard Sword and heavy armor. And yeah, I was pretty much a Paladin (technically, the way the church's hierarchy was determined placed me exactly as a Paladin, with stuff such as Bishop and whatnot as later choices)

Its ST, DX, IQ, and HT now.

Also, please check out my paladin that I linked earlier in the thread. Might give you some perspective. Also, I commend you trying to get some much with GURPS on your first go, I was far more conservative.

Battle is pretty straightforward, actually. IIRC, movement was based off Dex, attack was based off Strength, you can cast as many spells as you like so as long as you don't fall fatigued (which was based off Health), the power of spells is based off Int...the usual. Attacking from the back gave a tactical advantage, being with basic heavy armor and shield gave a pretty potent defense, and you can't die unless you failed your Health check (and with 13-14 Health, it was nearly impossible to fail!) Technically, there's no dependance on magic items, but you can key off your powers to depend on the items, which is considered a minor Flaw IIRC.

This is largely incorrect now, although I suspect even then you weren't really using the cool tactical combat rules.

Your Basic Speed (and thus your Basic Move) are calcuated thusly: DX + HT /4. And that is how fast you can move in combat, although encumbrance effects this very easily if you want to wear non-light armor.

Attack is your weapon skill (which functions largely like other skills), which is based on D(e)X. And I've talked about the attack/active defense system quite a bit above.

The magic system still has a bit of an issue with this, and could use some minor houseruling to rein it in, but yes its still largely limited by fatigue (there are no spell slots or spells per day, unless you go way, way out of your way to make it like that).

Attacking from rear/flank is very advantageous, although there are also alot of other tactical options in combat (see my second post in this thread for some discussion on this).

Its true that using the more basic rules for injury its fairly hard to die from your wounds. In a way, this actually helps rescue the system from having a really high lethality rate. Its still higher then DnD, but its not the "combat is suicide" that some systems have.

It's been so long, I just can't recall very well how the system went, but it's pretty solid. If anything, while it's pretty easy to GM and pretty easy to play, it requires a bit more of roleplaying and solid storytelling in order to make it work, as IIRC the book is designed to not have any fluff. It's almost entirely crunch, with light fluff to give ideas on what you can do, but mostly the GM makes the story and that's it. Supplements are not extra fluff, but different types of crunch.

Indeed. Personally, I didn't run pre-made stuff anyways and always made each campaign from more-or-less scratch, so this doesn't bother me at all. Supplements do actually provide extra 'fluff' in the form of understanding of their material. For instance, Martial Arts gives you a LOT of background information on the development, history, and practice of the martial arts, as well as a whole crapload of new rules. But I'm glad you could appreciate how much easier it is to use in-game even just playing it briefly.

Oh, and it's not that easy to break, either. Also, IIRC, there are different ways to get the same spells (Resurrection isn't, or at least wasn't a Healing only spell; it was also a Necromancy spell)

It might be, I didn't look through the entire magic book, just under healing till I found that spell.

[Cybren]

It's also worth mentioning that GURPS Magic is pretty controversial among some groups. The first thing to take away from it is that the spell colleges are thematic groups, not really trees. There's no balance factor to how they're arranged, since the spells are all already balanced by casting time and fatigue cost.

Talking about mundane combat is not the way to pull in D&D players (well except for those core fighter lovers). Just to head you off, talking about a game heavily based around social encounters and skill challenges isn't either ;)

Honestly I think the opposite. If the average D&D player saw the kind of things you can do in GURPS in even a regular fight without magic/super powers/etc, they'd probably drool. THEN bring in Imbuements, Magic, Powers, and, well, the rest, as they say, is history.

Not to seem derogatory but isn't GURPS just Hero System light?

I don't know if you've ever played the system but Hero System seems to do all of the things GURPS can do but more so. On the other hand all the disadvantages of GURPS apply to Hero System doubly.

GURPS doesn't try to model everything using the same set of rules. While you could use GURPS Powers the way HERO works, it would ruin a lot of what makes GURPS great.

[Kizara]

Honestly I think the opposite. If the average D&D player saw the kind of things you can do in GURPS in even a regular fight without magic/super powers/etc, they'd probably drool. THEN bring in Imbuements, Magic, Powers, and, well, the rest, as they say, is history.

Seriously.

I saw this and thought "I've been trying to cobble-together houserules to make 3.5 do this for YEARS; and I feel like a stubborn fool for not simply doing this earlier!"

[T.G. Oskar]

Its basically as you describe it. The general tenets of the system haven't changed, only refined. You can take disadvantages without completely hosing yourself if you use some sense with it. But if you want to play a terminally ill angsty mage or something, you get the points for your trouble.

Well, as far as I could recall, some were pretty serious. Dependant (is that the name? Is it still at 4th edition?) was pretty tough, especially the worst version. At least the minor one was pretty decent (the dependant knew how to survive an attempt or two without your aid), but the one that granted the buckload of points could be nightmarish with a sadistic DM (you're on a life-and-death situation, and all of a sudden you get a call from someone saying "hey, I got your dependant, and it's going to die unless you come within an hour." Also, I recall that if you lose the dependant, you had some kind of penalty or whatnot.

But yeah, the idea is to choose the right disadvantages, and do as much as possible with quirks. Only five quirks, and each grant (or granted) one point, but those were not that bad. You were expected to roleplay them, but most of the time it wasn't something truly crippling.

Its ST, DX, IQ, and HT now.

It has always been ST, DX, IQ and HT. Hasn't changed. I just happened to mention them by name; hence, the St(rength), with the letters out of the parentheses mentioning the name.

Also, please check out my paladin that I linked earlier in the thread. Might give you some perspective. Also, I commend you trying to get some much with GURPS on your first go, I was far more conservative.

Sorta similar to mine, except I had a higher Religious Rank (5 or 7, IIRC), and definitely went for Power Investiture (if that's the one that allows you to use spells). Though, that ST 17 is pretty huge; my highest stat was HT, and it was about 13-14. Though, that made me really hard to kill; the only thing I lament was that I couldn't cast Vigor as a spell. I didn't understood what it did, but had I recalled that pretty early, that would have made me nearly invulnerable (and the night even longer than it was)

But in either case, I was under a 100 point build. But it was awesome: I was a Paladin of a triad of deities (and followed the Goddess of Creation, which had an "amorphous form" which produced some laughs, barely fought honorably and always struck back, and was known later on as the "rapper Paladin"), and I traveled with a "pyromaniac, pyrokinetic" elf, a mage that used the rules of Magi Nation (a TCG of mages, just in case), a Pokemon summoner (whose best summon was a horde swarm of Pikachus), a wooden golem with the ability to cast Rune Magic (and who was quite unpredictable, to the point of being potentially lethal), and a Samurai-ish warrior who knew the secrets of Hiten Mitsurugi and had an unhealthy relationship with his beloved horse.

Did I mentioned it was meant to be on Earth's future, with a thing that nuked technology and allowed magic to flourish, and the whole purpose of my character was to revive technology, while preventing the paladins of the "dark and destructive" god from preventing it, and stopping yet another Church (false, and it used magic) from holding absolute power?

Yeah...good days.

This is largely incorrect now, although I suspect even then you weren't really using the cool tactical combat rules.

Your Basic Speed (and thus your Basic Move) are calcuated thusly: DX + HT /4. And that is how fast you can move in combat, although encumbrance effects this very easily if you want to wear non-light armor.

Attack is your weapon skill (which functions largely like other skills), which is based on D(e)X. And I've talked about the attack/active defense system quite a bit above.

The magic system still has a bit of an issue with this, and could use some minor houseruling to rein it in, but yes its still largely limited by fatigue (there are no spell slots or spells per day, unless you go way, way out of your way to make it like that).

Attacking from rear/flank is very advantageous, although there are also alot of other tactical options in combat (see my second post in this thread for some discussion on this).

Its true that using the more basic rules for injury its fairly hard to die from your wounds. In a way, this actually helps rescue the system from having a really high lethality rate. Its still higher then DnD, but its not the "combat is suicide" that some systems have.

I was remembering what I could remember. And it was my first time. I learned a bit, and I can recall a bit, but don't force my memory that much. So, perhaps I wasn't using the full onset of the rules, since I was still on diapers and using the tactics of the other people.

In either case, I was pretty hard to beat. I recall that I had to do HT rolls and roll lower than my HT to remain alive, and I spent about an hour and a half trying to do that. It was insane, and I ended up felled because of a bad roll

Indeed. Personally, I didn't run pre-made stuff anyways and always made each campaign from more-or-less scratch, so this doesn't bother me at all. Supplements do actually provide extra 'fluff' in the form of understanding of their material. For instance, Martial Arts gives you a LOT of background information on the development, history, and practice of the martial arts, as well as a whole crapload of new rules. But I'm glad you could appreciate how much easier it is to use in-game even just playing it briefly.

Which is what I meant. You don't have extensive descriptions on how that applies to World X, actually, which is what I meant with fluff and light fluff. What it's provided is to give an idea on how to apply it to your own world. Perhaps it's how you and I define fluff, mayhaps.

It might be, I didn't look through the entire magic book, just under healing till I found that spell.

Perhaps it's an old edition quirk, but I recall pretty well that Resurrection was a Healing AND Necromancy spell. The description said something along the lines of "being Necromancy the school/sphere of death control, it makes sense that you can use said magic to reverse death".

Also, Heat. Both a Fire and an Ice spell. Description? "Just as adding heat makes things hot, removing heat makes things cold." Oddly enough, it was one of the basic spells of both Fire and Ice.

Oh, and I recall the other few spheres I had access. Animal and Plant. I recall since I intentionally watched a Gryphon/Griffon so I could create it next (I had Create Animal, as well as Vigor and Heal and I can't remember which other spells) Too bad I could only play like three or four sessions, since it was mid-semester and the GM was leaving that semester, so it was the last game he'd throw.

[Kizara]

Oskar, it sounds like you had an incredibly powerful character for 100pts.

I doubt I could make a mage that had your spellcasting abilities alone and still be a character at that point budget, let alone the other stuff.

As for not dieing, in 4e you auto-die at 5x your hp, and you have penalties and have to roll 2 rolls everyone round in negative hp in order to not go down; one to stay conscious, and one to not die.

The plot and characters of your campaign are certinally zany and fun, and illustrate what you can do with GURPS if you want to 'run with it' a bit. Sounds like a blast, glad you had fun. Characters you kick ass with are always funner to play and fonder to remember.


Cybren: Thanks for your contributions to the thread, I was hoping to attract some more experienced GURPS players to the thread so they could deal with questions outside of my current knowledge and experiences. Also, I'll be sure to PM you with my own questions in the future. :P

[Rainbownaga]

@ Yahzi

I'm guessing most of that was sarcasm, right. 2-3 dozen (even inept) characters targeting a single target and eventually killing it. I remember a post from world of darkness discussing whether a human character with maxed out stats could hold his own against 3 or 5 gangbangers (i can't remember which).

I think he mangaged to kill one.

[T.G. Oskar]

Oskar, it sounds like you had an incredibly powerful character for 100pts.

I doubt I could make a mage that had your spellcasting abilities alone and still be a character at that point budget, let alone the other stuff.

Remember that it was an older system. If I recall correctly, the Power Investiture Talent (or whatever Talent I used for spellcasting) gave me the ability to use spells with some discount, but the mechanic was a bit different. Since I had a low level of that Talent (though I'm pretty sure it was Power Investment; in either case, it should be on the Religion supplement if available), I couldn't use spells at an advantage like regular spells do.

Also, the Attribute/Ability Score system was a bit different IIRC. I recall wasting about 50 points or so on Attributes, and the ST and DX (or was it ST and HT? Perhaps, if my DX was 10 or so...) were enhanced by the GM with an "item" to compensate with the level of the other people (who were playing for about a year or two). I think I also had some extra XP to balance things up. In either case, it wasn't a tried-and-true 100-point character.

As for not dieing, in 4e you auto-die at 5x your hp, and you have penalties and have to roll 2 rolls everyone round in negative hp in order to not go down; one to stay conscious, and one to not die.

Perhaps it was that, since I fell into negative HP pretty quickly. All I recall was that I had such a high HT, I barely got over 13-14 (or whichever my HT really was; my memory is a tad hazy). I finally failed, IIRC, with a roll of 15.

Also, do triple 1's count as critical successes and triple 6's as botches? The thing that I can correctly identify is that GURPS uses bell curve.

The plot and characters of your campaign are certinally zany and fun, and illustrate what you can do with GURPS if you want to 'run with it' a bit. Sounds like a blast, glad you had fun. Characters you kick ass with are always funner to play and fonder to remember.

Well, oddly enough it wasn't a zany story, but a serious story. It was that the group was dysfunctional at its core. But still, it managed to do its work as it should.

As for those who think in D&D terms: GURPS is a tad more balanced in the term of "magic trumps mundane". Being a point-based system, a mundane character could have better stats, and better advantages while choosing little disadvantages. As well, you can enhance what you can do with skills, which is crucial since the rules work differently (if my memory is hazy, you roll a target number, your bonus or penalty with the skill modifies that target number, and if you exceed that number, you fail). Magic requires a specific talent, requires an expenditure of points between that and skills, and you must pump those spells you learn to cast them better separately, as well as each spell having a prerequisite (you can't learn Resurrection unless you have several other spells, which imply having the equivalents of Cure X Wounds, Regeneration, and one other spell to do it at a slight penalty). Bell curve aids a lot, but mages aren't the end-all be-all of the game; having low IQ hinders your magic ability, and having low HT hinders you through Fatigue Points. Finally, you can have Magical Resistance as a talent, which forbids you from using magic but makes magicians harder to affect you.

So yeah, so much for "I cast magic, I win". It requires a different level of thinking to achieve that, and you will be in a bit of disadvantage compared to someone who used his or her 70 points on skills and other talents.

Also, GURPS =/= Storyteller/Storytelling system(s). It's rewarding for roleplayers, but it lends itself quite well to hack & slash parties, since the battle rules are simple enough. Heck, IIRC social encounters are roleplayed here, not enforced by rules. But then again, I've played so long ago that it may be different. The idea is "GURPS is different", not "GURPS is mundane/social RP and thus won't apply to munchkins".
For that, go play Munchkin RPG by Steve Jackson.
You can't say much until you try.

[Yora]

Hm, I have to say I'm not sold.

I like my games focusing on storytelling with combat rules mostly as a tool to determine at which actions the PCs succeed and at which they fail. And social interaction rules seem to reduce roleplaying instead of supporting it.
And as people tell here, GURPS is apparently more detailed than d20, so I guess it would be even less useful to me.
If you want to have drawbacks and quirks, just say that the character has them. You don't have to include very tiny penalties to very specific situations to do that. Or roll for both characters if one of them tries to hit the other. It all takes extra time and makes the players think more abot the number than about the "play" they are staging.

Meh, does not sound like a game for me.