[3.5] Wall of Iron: Great damage spell?

[Wubba]

Looking at the Wall of Iron spell, it seems to be a wonderful spell for causing massive amounts of damage. Allow me to explain:

The spell description gives three requirements for how the wall must be conjured:
- It must be vertical.
- It must be a flat plane.
- It may not intersect with a creature.

It does not, however, say anything about the wall needing to be on the ground. Given the obvious application of "giant blunt guillotine", it's just a matter of figuring out the damage.

The wall's volume ranges from 9.17 ft^3 at level 11 to 41.67 ft^3 at level 20. Using a ratio of 485 lb/ft^3 (from here), that means that the weight ranges from 4,400 lb to 20,200 lb (rounding down). The DMG (p303) says falling objects deal 1d6 damage per 200 lb, if it falls at least ten feet. It can also cause up to 20d6 extra damage by falling further. The spell has a medium range, so by the time you can cast it you can make it fall as far as necessary, if the environment allows it.

This means that the spell causes 22d6 - 42d6 at level 11, and 101d6 - 121d6 at level 20. It doesn't allow spell resistance and, depending on the interpretation of the description, may or may not allow a reflex save to avoid the damage. Also, even if the target survives, it's now stuck under a wall. It'd need 33 strength to lift the level 11 version, and 44 strength to lift the level 20 version (meaning that even the Tarrasque would have to struggle to move it).

Am I missing something, or is this just incredibly overpowered? Meteor Swarm only does 32d6 (and allows SR), and it's a 9th level spell.

Edit: "A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it." Yeah, I guess I was missing something.

[Mongoose87]

Well, there is that hefty 50gp material cost.

[Wubba]

Well, there is that hefty 50gp material cost.

True. It's still perfect for a Shadowcraft Mage, though. They don't have to pay the cost, and if they use a spell slot one level higher then it's 100% real (and removes their main problem of overcoming spell resistance.)

[Myrmex]

Looking at the Wall of Iron spell, it seems to be a wonderful spell for causing massive amounts of damage. Allow me to explain:

The spell description gives three requirements for how the wall must be conjured:
- It must be vertical.
- It must be a flat plane.
- It may not intersect with a creature.

It does not, however, say anything about the wall needing to be on the ground. Given the obvious application of "giant blunt guillotine", it's just a matter of figuring out the damage.

The wall's volume ranges from 9.17 ft^3 at level 11 to 41.67 ft^3 at level 20. Using a ratio of 485 lb/ft^3 (from here), that means that the weight ranges from 4,400 lb to 20,200 lb (rounding down). The DMG (p303) says falling objects deal 1d6 damage per 200 lb, if it falls at least ten feet. It can also cause up to 20d6 extra damage by falling further. The spell has a medium range, so by the time you can cast it you can make it fall as far as necessary, if the environment allows it.

This means that the spell causes 22d6 - 42d6 at level 11, and 101d6 - 121d6 at level 20. It doesn't allow spell resistance and, depending on the interpretation of the description, may or may not allow a reflex save to avoid the damage. Also, even if the target survives, it's now stuck under a wall. It'd need 33 strength to lift the level 11 version, and 44 strength to lift the level 20 version (meaning that even the Tarrasque would have to struggle to move it).

Am I missing something, or is this just incredibly overpowered? Meteor Swarm only does 32d6 (and allows SR), and it's a 9th level spell.

The reflex save to negate might be 10, depending on your DM allowing it, as opposed to hitting you with something.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Conjuration spells must summon the whatever into a location that can support it. This is to prevent the "Summon Falling Earth Elemental IV-IX" trick, but also stops your Wall of Iron idea.

[Mongoose87]

True. It's still perfect for a Shadowcraft Mage, though. They don't have to pay the cost, and if they use a spell slot one level higher then it's 100% real (and removes their main problem of overcoming spell resistance.)

Uhhh... I was kidding. 50gp is nothing.

[Wubba]

Conjuration spells must summon the whatever into a location that can support it. This is to prevent the "Summon Falling Earth Elemental IV-IX" trick, but also stops your Wall of Iron idea.

I thought that only applied to creatures.

Edit:
Meh. Just read the Conjuration rules again, and say it has to be supported. One could still cast Wall of Force, put the Wall of Iron on that, then dismiss the Wall of Force for a similar effect.

Of course, it'd work better with Earth Elementals. Just cast the Wall of Force, summon the Elemental on it, then command it to jump onto the enemy. It's cheaper, does more damage (30d6 - 50d6 for VI, 300d6 - 320d6 for IX), and the Elemental can even aim itself at the enemy. What sort of attack would that be, though? "The caster can form the wall into a flat vertical plane..." Oops. I guess I just fail at reading tonight. Is there any spell that does make a floating platform?

Another Edit:

Uhhh... I was kidding. 50gp is nothing.

Sorry, I forgot for a moment that by level 11 everyone is fabulously wealthy.

[Wings of Peace]

What Malconvoker summons could support the wall if it were summoned in the air? Malconvokers can dismiss their summons as immediate actions which with some planning could make for an interesting combo. We need something really tall and really strong. Sadly my knowledge of summons is lacking or I'd recommend some myself.

[Lycanthromancer]

46 simple steps to fame and fortune:
Step 1: Cast wall of iron.
Step 2: Cast shrink item.
Steps 3-43: Repeat steps 1 & 2.
Step 44: Stuff steps 1-43 into a HHH.
Step 45: ???
Step 46: Profit!

[Mongoose87]

What Malconvoker summons could support the wall if it were summoned in the air? Malconvokers can dismiss their summons as immediate actions which with some planning could make for an interesting combo. We need something really tall and really strong. Sadly my knowledge of summons is lacking or I'd recommend some myself.

Perhaps another wall?

[Wings of Peace]

Perhaps another wall?

I don't think that can be done as an evil summon with any of the Summon Monster X

[Mongoose87]

I don't think that can be done as an evil summon with any of the Summon Monster X

Sorry, I'm not especially familiar with the Malconvoker.

[ZeroNumerous]

Or you could just cast the Wall of Force and arrange it's area to go upward instead of outward. You're not required to make it expand horizonitally nor are you limited from making curves in it.

None the less, Lycanthromancer's idea is better, easier and funnier.

[sofawall]

Or you could just cast the Wall of Force and arrange it's area to go upward instead of outward. You're not required to make it expand horizonitally nor are you limited from making curves in it.

None the less, Lycanthromancer's idea is better, easier and funnier.

Must be vertical and a flat plane :P

[Johel]

46 simple steps to fame and fortune:
Step 1: Cast wall of iron.
Step 2: Cast shrink item.
Steps 3-43: Repeat steps 1 & 2.
Step 44: Stuff steps 1-43 into a HHH.
Step 45: ???
Step 46: Profit!

*Wall of Iron, CL12*
Volume = 18m x 1,5m x 2,5cm = 1800cm x 150cm x 2,5cm = 675.000 cm³
Weight = 7,87g per cm³ x 675.000 cm³ = 5.312.250 g = 5,3 tons
*Shrink Item*
Volume = 675.000 cm³ / (16 x 16 x 16) = 164,80 cm³
That's a block of 10cm x 10cm x 16,5cm of pure iron.
Weight = 5.312.250 g / 4.000 = 1.328 g
That's a little over 1 Kg.
*Stuff in a Bag of Holding Type I*

Repeat process for 12 days.
Make about 2 shrinked walls a day.

• Go to the nearest blacksmith.
• Empty the bag.
• Use the command word.
• *!! Unshrink !!*
• Sell 127.200 kilos of pure iron.
• Profits

[kamikasei]

• Sell 127.200 kilos of pure iron.
• Profits

About 27k gp of profit, assuming your calculations are correct (at 1sp per pound of iron).

[Myou]

*Wall of Iron, CL12*
Volume = 18m x 1,5m x 2,5cm = 1800cm x 150cm x 2,5cm = 675.000 cm³
Weight = 7,87g per cm³ x 675.000 cm³ = 5.312.250 g = 5,3 tons
*Shrink Item*
Volume = 675.000 cm³ / (16 x 16 x 16) = 164,80 cm³
That's a block of 10cm x 10cm x 16,5cm of pure iron.
Weight = 5.312.250 g / 4.000 = 1.328 g
That's a little over 1 Kg.
*Stuff in a Bag of Holding Type I*

Repeat process for 12 days.
Make about 2 shrinked walls a day.

• Go to the nearest blacksmith.
• Empty the bag.
• Use the command word.
• *!! Unshrink !!*
• Sell 127.200 kilos of pure iron.
• Profits

Player: "Blacksmith! I have iron to sell!"

NPC: "Wow, that's a lot of iron, I'l give you 100 gold for it!"

Player: ....

"I spent 12 days making this! It's worth 27,000 gold!"

NPC: "Heh, you wish, I buy my iron wholesale from the mine a few days south of here, and this much iron wouldn't cost half that. Not to mention that there's more iron here than I can use in a year, and 27,000 is more than I make in a decade. I'll give you 100 gold."

Player: "Fine, I'm not selling then."

Blacksmith: "Fair enough. I hope you have a lot of golems to craft, because there's certainly no-one else around who wants that much iron."

Player: ....

"150 gold."

[Hijax]

Player: "Blacksmith! I have iron to sell!"

NPC: "Wow, that's a lot of iron, I'l give you 100 gold for it!"

Player: ....

"I spent 12 days making this! It's worth 27,000 gold!"

NPC: "Heh, you wish, I buy my iron wholesale from the mine a few days south of here, and this much iron wouldn't cost half that. Not to mention that there's more iron here than I can use in a year, and 27,000 is more than I make in a decade. I'll give you 100 gold."

Player: "Fine, I'm not selling then."

Blacksmith: "Fair enough. I hope you have a lot of golems to craft, because there's certainly no-one else around who wants that much iron."

Player: ....

"150 gold."Player: "Hmm, maybe i can retrain some levels into effigy master at next level..."

Fixed it for ya.

[Jack_Simth]

About 27k gp of profit, assuming your calculations are correct (at 1sp per pound of iron).

As listed, it's a trade good. Which means you don't sell it, you use it as cash. But yes, there are a lot of idiosyncrasies in the rules, as Myou pointed out - while by the book the spell produces a very large amount of iron very quickly, and strictly by the book, it's absurdly valuable, almost no blacksmith would have use for that much iron in that short order. Now, if you engineer a war, and sell it to the king of one (or both) of the countries to feed wartime production, that's a different story.

[Cyclocone]

As listed, it's a trade good. Which means you don't sell it, you use it as cash. But yes, there are a lot of idiosyncrasies in the rules, as Myou pointed out - while by the book the spell produces a very large amount of iron very quickly, and strictly by the book, it's absurdly valuable, almost no blacksmith would have use for that much iron in that short order. Now, if you engineer a war, and sell it to the king of one (or both) of the countries to feed wartime production, that's a different story.

Don't forget to breed a horde of rust monsters and release it on the unsuspecting countries.
Supply and demand is your friend.

[Johel]

Player: "Blacksmith! I have iron to sell!"

NPC: "Wow, that's a lot of iron, I'l give you 100 gold for it!"

Player: ....

"I spent 12 days making this! It's worth 27,000 gold!"

NPC: "Heh, you wish, I buy my iron wholesale from the mine a few days south of here, and this much iron wouldn't cost half that. Not to mention that there's more iron here than I can use in a year, and 27,000 is more than I make in a decade. I'll give you 100 gold."

Player: "Fine, I'm not selling then."

Blacksmith: "Fair enough. I hope you have a lot of golems to craft, because there's certainly no-one else around who wants that much iron."

Player: ....

"150 gold."

Well, you *COULD* go to 24 blacksmith, 1 wall for each of them.
As long as the price is more than 50 gp / 5,3 tons, you're good.

But you're somewhat right : with that much iron, the price will go down quickly...which will make the weapons and armors cheaper !!
D&D economy for da win.

[Myou]

Well, you *COULD* go to 24 blacksmith, 1 wall for each of them.
As long as the price is more than 50 gp / 5,3 tons, you're good.

But you're somewhat right : with that much iron, the price will go down quickly...which will make the weapons and armors cheaper !!
D&D economy for da win.

I'm not sure that a drop of around 5gp in the price of mundane swords is actually going to be of much benefit to you.

[Jack Zander]

The prices wouldn't drop actually. The prices listed are assuming that iron is readily available. They cost their price because of the time it takes to craft such items. Having more iron than you know what to do with doesn't help the fact that it still takes you a week to craft a good sword.

[Hijax]

The prices wouldn't drop actually. The prices listed are assuming that iron is readily available. They cost their price because of the time it takes to craft such items. Having more iron than you know what to do with doesn't help the fact that it still takes you a week to craft a good sword.

scary thought: animate object+greater familycide on some iron. casters would be the sole providers of iron. ALL POWER TO THE MIGHTY WIZARDZZZ! *plays ars magica*

[Myou]

scary thought: animate object+greater familycide on some iron. casters would be the sole providers of iron. ALL POWER TO THE MIGHTY WIZARDZZZ! *plays ars magica*

Given that familicide is homebrewed and that using it in that way is impossible, I wouldn't worry too much.

[Random832]

scary thought: animate object+greater familycide on some iron. casters would be the sole providers of iron. ALL POWER TO THE MIGHTY WIZARDZZZ! *plays ars magica*

Um - even if familicide was a real spell... It kills the family of the target. So the rest of the iron in the world (which was never alive in the first place) would be dead. So yeah.

[Johel]

scary thought: animate object+greater familycide on some iron. casters would be the sole providers of iron. ALL POWER TO THE MIGHTY WIZARDZZZ! *plays ars magica*

As noted above, doesn't work.

However, given enough power, you *could* probably create an epic spell that would be a world-wide version of "Rusting Graspe". That's going to be Caveman's day for a few months at least.

[Cyclocone]

Do the opposite! Mass awaken all iron in the world (Yes. We. Can!) and have it revolt against it's human oppressors; then sell rust monsters to everyone!
Lighten up, I doubt Hijax were being serious.

[quick_comment]

Player: "Blacksmith! I have iron to sell!"

NPC: "Wow, that's a lot of iron, I'l give you 100 gold for it!"

Player: ....

"I spent 12 days making this! It's worth 27,000 gold!"

NPC: "Heh, you wish, I buy my iron wholesale from the mine a few days south of here, and this much iron wouldn't cost half that. Not to mention that there's more iron here than I can use in a year, and 27,000 is more than I make in a decade. I'll give you 100 gold."

Player: Greater Teleport to the mine! Fireball! Summon Monster! Earthquake! Lightning bolt! Teleport back to the blacksmith!

Player: Mine? What mine?

I have fixed the above.

[Yuki Akuma]

...

What would the fireball and lightning bolt do?

Iron ore doesn't burn.