Losing Spellcasting From Artifact Disjunction

[Lysander]

Even artifacts are subject to disjunction, though there is only a 1% chance per caster level of actually affecting such powerful items. Additionally, if an artifact is destroyed, you must make a DC 25 Will save or permanently lose all spellcasting abilities. (These abilities cannot be recovered by mortal magic, not even miracle or wish.)

Let's say a level 20 wizard or sorcerer casts Disjunction and successfully destroys an artifact. They then fail their will save and lose all spellcasting ability. But they're still level 20.

What can a level 20 arcane caster achieve without spellcasting? They're still a pretty powerful person even without magic, just not compared to other level 20 people.

Could they still craft magic items? Probably not. Are scrolls and wands also banned, since technically they're still a spellcasting ability? I assume they retain their familiar. Also, a level 20 wizard probably has an enchanted castle, a giant mound of gold, and several powerful magic items too so those possessions factor into their overall power. Not to mention a valuable spellbook.

Would it be worthwhile to remain level 20? Or would deliberately losing levels somehow and then leveling up as another class be smarter?

I find the idea of magicians who have lost their magic pretty interesting. Imagine a game of several wizards who joined forces to destroy some evil artifact and lost all magic in the process. The game could be about them putting their lives back together. They'd have to solve problems without their spells, train apprentice wizards to use their spells in order to replace them, etc.

[Eloel]

They could craft non-magical stuff for a LONG time, and re-level. With cash. Alot of it.

[Kylarra]

Pretty powerful in the way that a 20th level commoner is "powerful" I suppose. :P

If they had prestige class levels they retroactively lose those (assuming they had casting pre-reqs), so you could be gimped down to <caster> level 5/6 just by losing your casting abilities.

You can't craft anymore because that requires you to cast the spells in question.

Wands would depend on how technically you define "losing all spellcasting" as they're spell completion items and thus having the spell on your class list allows you to use it.

[Lysander]

Pretty powerful in the way that a 20th level commoner is "powerful" I suppose. :P

If they had prestige class levels they retroactively lose those (assuming they had casting pre-reqs), so you could be gimped down to <caster> level 5/6 just by losing your casting abilities.

You can't craft anymore because that requires you to cast the spells in question.

Wands would depend on how technically you define "losing all spellcasting" as they're spell completion items and thus having the spell on your class list allows you to use it.

I don't think they'd lose prc levels, they just wouldn't be able to use any spellcasting abilities they provide. At least arcane spellcasting abilities.

Would this also extend to divine spells, in the case of a mystic theurge or a dual wiz/cleric? Also, do other supernatural abilities like Wild Shape count as "spellcasting"?

[Foryn Gilnith]

I think becoming an Elan resets you to level one. Becoming a necropolitan, being resurrected, becoming a necropolitan again, being resurrected, et cetera could reset you back to a level where you're fresh again. Bonus points if you started in rogue or binder or something, because then you can relevel with no dead levels.
Depending on how the restriction is interpreted, you could go down to level one, and then class into Shadowcaster; exchanging your arcane level (the first) for a shadowcaster level using Creeping Shadows or whatever that sidebar was called.

Worst-case scenario, you delevel to first, get Psychic Reformation to get rid of your feat, and level up to a build as if you had LA +1.

Level 20 commoner is a lot more useless than a level 1 character with enough connections to survive leveling up.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Delevel with your previously created and still controlled wight minion. Regain all XP with Thought Bottle.

TADA! You're back at level 20 and have regained most of your powers.

[Kylarra]

I don't think they'd lose prc levels, they just wouldn't be able to use any spellcasting abilities they provide. At least arcane spellcasting abilities.

Would this also extend to divine spells, in the case of a mystic theurge or a dual wiz/cleric? Also, do other supernatural abilities like Wild Shape count as "spellcasting"?

Well they'd keep HD, BAB and saves, but all other abilities would be null.


edit: I'd assume that other supernatural abilities would probably be fine, but since disjunction is in the magic domain, it probably nulls arcane and divine spellcasting equally.

[woodenbandman]

Question is, why do you fail the save? I am pretty sure that there are a few things that guarantee you don't fail on a natural 1, and if you don't have a will save of +24, you're doing it really wrong.

[Kylarra]

Question is, why do you fail the save? I am pretty sure that there are a few things that guarantee you don't fail on a natural 1, and if you don't have a will save of +24, you're doing it really wrong.

DM fiat, the only reason you'd be losing class abilities or allowed to destroy an artifact in the first place.

[Jack Zander]

Question is, why do you fail the save? I am pretty sure that there are a few things that guarantee you don't fail on a natural 1, and if you don't have a will save of +24, you're doing it really wrong.

A level 20 cleric will have an average Will save of 25 = 12 (Base) +8 (Wisdom) +5 (Cloak of Resistance)

However, a level 20 Wizard will only have a Will save of 17 = 12 (Base) +0 (Wisdom) +5 (Cloak of Resistance)

As far as not failing on a natural 1, I think nothing short of Divine ranks can get you that (for Will Saves anyway).

[Foryn Gilnith]

Add more base will save from prestige classes, and add another +3 (borrow a periapt of wisdom for the momentous occasion of destroying an artifact) from Wisdom, some spell that grants a morale bonus, and you're golden to fail only on a 1.

[quick_comment]

DM fiat, the only reason you'd be losing class abilities or allowed to destroy an artifact in the first place.

I once had a player who started to go a bit mad with disjunctions, and rather than disjunct his and the other player's equipment, I just told him to roll a percentile die the next time he disjoined. He got the point.



For the original topic, the wizard can retrain the last 20 levels into warblade.

[Foryn Gilnith]

I'd advise Factotum. Even if you can't get rid of Wizard 1, you "only" lose 2 inspiration points, 1 Arcane Dilettante use, and 1 Opportunistic Piety use. You still get Arcane Dilettante up to 7th-level spells (it's a spell-like ability, not a spell, so you can keep it), intelligence to AC, +19 on any skill, Cunning Surge, and Cunning Brilliance.

[Sophismata]

Technically, losing (or relearning) your 'dead' spellcasting levels doesn't grant you the ability to cast spells...

make a DC 25 Will save or permanently lose all spellcasting abilities. (These abilities cannot be recovered by mortal magic, not even miracle or wish.)

Has this ever actually come up in a game? Ideally, after the destruction of the Artifact of Doom, the Wizard goes on an epic quest to regain his magic.

[Melamoto]

make a DC 25 Will save or permanently lose all spellcasting abilities. (These abilities cannot be recovered by mortal magic, not even miracle or wish.)

Give your friendly neighbourhood level 20 Cleric a call, and ask him to give his friendly neighbourhood deity a call. By the time you're level 20, you have enough influence to make 1 request from your god, especially if it would effectively give him a level 20 Wizard as a follower.

[quick_comment]

You could also just use epic magic.

The heal seed "dispels all magical effects penalizing the character’s abilities, including effects caused by spells, even epic spells developed with the afflict seed"

[Lysander]

Give your friendly neighbourhood level 20 Cleric a call, and ask him to give his friendly neighbourhood deity a call. By the time you're level 20, you have enough influence to make 1 request from your god, especially if it would effectively give him a level 20 Wizard as a follower.

Miracle is exactly that, asking your deity for a favor. And Disjunction specifically says Miracle can't restore the lost ability.

So the only way to get powers back is if a deity wants you to. I suppose you could try plane shifting and seeking a personal audience with the deity but even a good deity is likely to teleport you back to the material plane the way a person shoos a fly out the window.

[Optimystik]

It would be fun for a Cleric who does this to become extremely bitter at his deity, lose some levels and start down the path of an Ur-Priest.

I like Belial's Thought Bottle idea too. Sneaky!

[ericgrau]

Nah, thought bottle abuse is halfway between power-gaming and pun pun. Doesn't count.

I think practically a wizard's will save would be 12 (base) + 5-7 (items) + 0-2 (wis + possible ioun stone) + 0-2 (buffs) = 17-23. So chance of failure is still significant. If you're adding in prestige classes, splatbooks, etc. then the DM should make everything harder to match, or it skews balance on everything. Not just disjunction. Prep like borrowing items assumes you even knew you'd be disjoining an artifact. Most players wouldn't intentionally risk even a 1 in 20 chance of essentially eliminating their characters with almost no chance of return.

[Lysander]

Of course the question isn't how can a wizard avoid losing all spellcasting. The odds are that they won't. It's what happens if it does. And lets say for the sake of argument, they can't get them back. No DM given divine quest. And let's say the player isn't allowed to level drain. They're stuck as a level 20 spell-less wizard. What now?

[Foryn Gilnith]

Level drain? It's not that difficult. Even in Core, it costs a mere 1000 gp for each level taken away, provided you can get a trusted druid friend for your Reincarnates. It's by far the best option.

If we really can't change from worse-than-Commoner-20, it would really depend on the build. A strictly core Wizard 20? I'd just become a merchant of sorts, investing my funds to get more money. Or I'd retire like Ulic Qel-Droma did and live the rest of my life in meditation. Or just be a sage, if you want the easy way out.

Or take Martial Study (White Raven) at first level and be a Diplomancer.

[ericgrau]

Why not just energy drain?

[Starbuck_II]

Of course the question isn't how can a wizard avoid losing all spellcasting. The odds are that they won't. It's what happens if it does. And lets say for the sake of argument, they can't get them back. No DM given divine quest. And let's say the player isn't allowed to level drain. They're stuck as a level 20 spell-less wizard. What now?

How do you deny level drain?
You could a scroll easily by level 20.

Heck, I bet you could find some monsters who will do it for you.

[quick_comment]

What now?

They have the other casters in the party level up and research an epic spell to give him his spellcasting back.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Having a druid 7 friend is easier than having a wizard 17 friend. You may also be unable to activate scrolls, and monsters are too dangerous. On the other hand, dieing just to be reborn is also dangerous; but it has the added bonus of putting you back into a youthful body.

[Blackfang108]

DM fiat, the only reason you'd be losing class abilities or allowed to destroy an artifact in the first place.

Um... DM Fiat?

An Artifact was disjoined in one of our games. The DM had the Sorceror roll the % dice, and told us which number was the Disjoint # before the roll.

That doesn't sound like Fiat to me.

[Lysander]

They have the other casters in the party level up and research an epic spell to give him his spellcasting back.

Would an epic spell work? It can't be cured by "mortal magic." Does an epic spell mean it's no longer mortal?

[Optimystik]

Would an epic spell work? It can't be cured by "mortal magic." Does an epic spell mean it's no longer mortal?

Epic spells can do just about anything, and indeed represent magic used by the gods. The Heal seed does look like it can reverse this.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Heal spell speed: Cures all detrimental magic effects.
Disjunction: Debilitating condition is immune to all mortal magic.

A contradiction. GM is free to choose whichever side to pick.

[Optimystik]

Heal spell speed: Cures all detrimental magic effects.
Disjunction: Debilitating condition is immune to all mortal magic.

A contradiction. GM is free to choose whichever side to pick.

Having a deity, demigod or other non-mortal cast an epic spell with the Heal Seed would eliminate that contradiction, as it would cease to be "mortal magic" at that point.