Antimagic Field question

[sonofzeal]

How does Antimagic Field interact with spells that target a single object but whose text describes something that affects an area? If I cast "Light" or "Darkness" on a pebble and leave it outside an AMF, does the light/dark enter?

Here's the relevant text:

An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration.

A darkness spell is cast on an object. This is key; if it had an "area" listing like Fireball or an "effect" listing like Web, things would be simpler. Instead, by my reading all the magic happens on the object, and the actual darkness is a result of the spell but not actually the spell itself, if that makes any sense. If the object enters the AMF, then it's obviously suppressed. But if it isn't "used within", "brought into", or "cast into" the area, then what happens? It seems like it shouldn't work, but I can't find anything in RAW to prevent it.


A further complication: what if you cast one of the "object touched" Light spells that harms undead in its area, and brought it near an AMF? Would undead inside the AMF still be hurt by it? Would they still be illuminated?

[Optimystik]

How does Antimagic Field interact with spells that target a single object but whose text describes something that affects an area? If I cast "Light" or "Darkness" on a pebble and leave it outside an AMF, does the light/dark enter?

AMF stops emanations, and magical light on an object outside an AMF is an emanation.

A further complication: what if you cast one of the "object touched" Light spells that harms undead in its area, and brought it near an AMF? Would undead inside the AMF still be hurt by it? Would they still be illuminated?

No and no would be my ruling.

[NEO|Phyte]

AMF stops emanations, and magical light on an object outside an AMF is an emanation.

I'm not seeing anything in the description of Light that says the light is an emanation, just that the object that gets magic'd sheds light as a torch.

[sonofzeal]

AMF stops emanations, and magical light on an object outside an AMF is an emanation.

Light and Darkness are not technically emanations though. They don't have the line "Area: 20-ft.-radius emanation" like you see for Zone of Truth or AMF itself.

It's the same reason you can't use Split Ray on an Orb of Force - even if it functions like a Ray, if it doesn't have "Effect: Ray" in the entry then it can't be used with Ray-only options. Light functions like an emanation, but isn't called one by the rules.

Again, the logic works but I don't think the rules support it.

[ericgrau]

Same as other area emanations. If the AMF overlaps the lit object (i.e., the center of the light), the entire spell would be suppressed. If the AMF overlaps part of the light but not the center, then only the overlapping portion is suppressed.

[sonofzeal]

Same as other area emanations. If the AMF overlaps the lit object (i.e., the center of the light), the entire spell would be suppressed. If the AMF overlaps part of the light but not the center, then only the overlapping portion is suppressed.

That would be great, if it was an Emanation. Which it isn't, technically, because it's not listed as such.

[Susano-wo]

Also, with regard to the undead question..wouldn't they cease to function inside an anti-magic field
And how's this for paradox: a magic item [mask] that allows the user to emanate an anti-magic field
^ ^

[quick_comment]

AMF shouldnt suppress it. The light itself isnt magical, its the object shedding the light that is.

[tyckspoon]

Also, with regard to the undead question..wouldn't they cease to function inside an anti-magic field
And how's this for paradox: a magic item [mask] that allows the user to emanate an anti-magic field
^ ^

Magically-animated creatures stop counting as magically-animated once they're created, so AMFs have no effect on standard undead (or constructs for that matter.) Same reason you can't Disjunct one. It may suppress the effect you are using to maintain control of the undead or some of the undead's abilities, but the creature itself has no trouble (unless it's an incorporeal undead, as being incorporeal is apparently considered an innately magical effect and gets suppressed out of existence.)

[Optimystik]

That would be great, if it was an Emanation. Which it isn't, technically, because it's not listed as such.

AMF shouldnt suppress it. The light itself isnt magical, its the object shedding the light that is.

The problem I have with this interpretation is that magical light (and magical darkness, for that matter) are treated differently from their natural counterparts. So AMF should treat them differently as well, i.e. like emanations.

[sonofzeal]

Also, with regard to the undead question..wouldn't they cease to function inside an anti-magic field
And how's this for paradox: a magic item [mask] that allows the user to emanate an anti-magic field
^ ^

Undead and Golums are created magically, but are not affected. "The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting (unless they have been summoned, in which case they are treated like any other summoned creatures). Elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned."

As for the mask.... I'd say specific trumps general, and it works as stated.

AMF shouldnt suppress it. The light itself isnt magical, its the object shedding the light that is.

What about Darkness? What about Celestial Brilliance (BoED) that does special damage to undead?

I'm not trying to be a hardass and argue both sides, but I don't think there's a clean resolution to this.

[Jack Zander]

I'm not trying to be a hardass and argue both sides, but I don't think there's a clean resolution to this.

There isn't. It's DM call.

I personally would say that light is not a magical emanation, but that darkness is. Take it on a case-by-case basis.

[Susano-wo]

Thanks for the RAW clarification RE: Undead, Golems, etc.

And RE the mask, well ,yeah, the mask would functions, I just meant it as a logical paradox. You have a mask with an at will A-M Field, that also turns off at will(which I think I neglected to mention)...which works rules wise, but not logically ^ ^
logically, I can only see it working as a time-based effect that diminishes into nothing over the course of its duration.
(the spell, or in this case, object, could cause a burst of magic nullification, which would not need to magically function once the magic had been removed from the area, but the magic would push back the field of null-magic until it ceased to exist)

[Foryn Gilnith]

It creates a shaped field, in which there is a hole roughly the size and shape of the mask.
Logic is a wonderful thing as long as you have proper premises.

[Raiki]

As far as most emanation spells are concerned, doesn't AMF specifically state that only the portion within its area is negated?

But personally, as a DM, I would rule that the Light spell could penetrate the barriers of an AMF because it says right in the spell description "Causes an object to glow like a torch..." Light thrown from a regular torch isn't negated in an AMF, so I don't see why light thrown from a copper piece glowing like a torch would be.

~R~

[Susano-wo]

... heh, the shaped field actually solves the problem. it can continually emanate the necessary magic to screw the magic in the vicinity without paradoxing its own magic
and as far as the light extending into an AMF (I always want to go to a bar when I see that abbreviation ^ ^)...like is not equivalent to. It a simile, meaning that is is expessing a similarity. If I said You can use a Mastercard like a Visa, that does not mean that you can necessarily use it in a place that accepts Mastercard, but not Visa..just that they function in similar ways.
So no, light from Light, Daylight, etc, is magical...which brings to mind hte question of if it interferes with Det. Magic. (well, not according to raw, but I have had DM's who rule that Aura's so magical it hurts your head, dazing, etc if there is too much magical stuff, etc in the area)

[Starbuck_II]

It creates a shaped field, in which there is a hole roughly the size and shape of the mask.
Logic is a wonderful thing as long as you have proper premises.

But that means it doesn't stop magic after all.
You shoot a fireball into an antimagic field: that hole is the only place that is affected now.

[PinkysBrain]

Before it comes up ... the rules compendium has ruled that AMF does not block LoE, so shaped AMF is no longer very useful.

[Optimystik]

But that means it doesn't stop magic after all.
You shoot a fireball into an antimagic field: that hole is the only place that is affected now.

Exactly. Your entire face gets cooked by the fireball, but the rest of you is completely immune. It's brilliant!

[Eldariel]

Before it comes up ... the rules compendium has ruled that AMF does not block LoE, so shaped AMF is no longer very useful.

It's more handy offensively now; you can make a shaped AMF part of a Cage Of Doom to deprive your opponent of any means of getting out of there. That and it stops people from beating you senseless.

[Susano-wo]

Fireball doesn't work on the mask-field, since it has to pass through the antimagic field...something truly non-directed would, though, which is funny.
from the SRD
"You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. (An early impact results in an early detonation.) If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely. "
And, I'm sorry, what is LoE and what book is it from? (sorry, not familiar with it ^ ^

[tyckspoon]

And, I'm sorry, what is LoE and what book is it from? (sorry, not familiar with it ^ ^

An abbreviation for Line of Effect. The ruling means that an AMF doesn't prevent you from sending spells through it, essentially- if you shape a hole in the middle of the AMF, all you have done is create a space where you can still be blown up.

[Susano-wo]

oh...that's...special.
SO there is no magic in an anti magic field, but you can pass magical effects through them to hit targets...
(man, I love the rules compendium, but sometimes official rulings hurt my head)

[Frosty]

oh...that's...special.
SO there is no magic in an anti magic field, but you can pass magical effects through them to hit targets...
(man, I love the rules compendium, but sometimes official rulings hurt my head)

It means that Fighter McChristmasTree who tries to use his Boots of Fly to get to you in the air now...can't. It really only screws over melee-types more, instead of hindering enemy casters.

[Starbuck_II]

It means that Fighter McChristmasTree who tries to use his Boots of Fly to get to you in the air now...can't. It really only screws over melee-types more, instead of hindering enemy casters.

It does mean when Mr. Fighter grapples the Wizard he keeps his Str bonus while grappling from his magic items (since you move into opponents square).

[tyckspoon]

oh...that's...special.
SO there is no magic in an anti magic field, but you can pass magical effects through them to hit targets...
(man, I love the rules compendium, but sometimes official rulings hurt my head)

If it helps, remember that Anti Magic Field doesn't destroy magic; it just stops it from doing anything while it's in the area. If you shoot a magic arrow through it, you have a magic arrow when you start, and you have a magic arrow on the other side- it's just not magic if it happens to hit something covered by the AMF. Spells (ruleswise- figuring out how this stuff works in-world is just brain-hurting and mostly impossible) interact with it the same way.

[Eldariel]

It does mean when Mr. Fighter grapples the Wizard he keeps his Str bonus while grappling from his magic items (since you move into opponents square).

...when is the last time a Wizard has actually gotten Grappled? Why is it that people insist on grappling anyways? If you get to hit the guy, why not just kill him instead?

Anyways, the AMF is the way it is because it's clearer than the alternative of AMF dispelling everything. It just suppresses magic right now, so the magic resumes functioning as soon as AMF leaves the area.

The alternative would be DISPELLING magic, which would among other things wreak havoc on magic items (undesirable), either be blatantly overpowered or require a thousand Dispel-checks and thus be unreliable (both undesirable), basically COUNTER all spells you're casting (just messy with associated mechanics), etc. It may not feel very fulfilling when it doesn't END magic rather than just suppressing it, but let me assure you, it's much cleaner.

[Optimystik]

An AMF is like a whirlpool at sea. The water (magic energy) swirls around a vacuum (the AMF.) There is no water in the vacuum, but it is still possible for water-based entities such as fish to pass from one side of the whirlpool to the other by swimming/sailing around the edge (or, in the case of fish, leaping across the gap). This I believe is what happens to spells, and explains how they are able to remain intact and reform on the other side.

[Susano-wo]

Well, I do have to concede logic to a degree. It is a field that stops magic from properly functioning whilst in it, thus effects resume when they leave it. The arrow is still magic, its just suppressed until it leaves. But I still can't hand;e spells passing through >.<
I mean, an arrow that passes through becomes mundane for the duration of is presence in the field, but a fireball, for instance, becomes, well, nonexistent once it enters.
(and yes, I know--its maaagic :P)

And just thinking out loud some more...I can see a point being made that the spell quark(or whatever you call it) is still there, just its effects are suppressed. But it just seems kinda....lame... Oh well, YMMV.

Though I should consider it a victory, since my original paradox, though [edit:] resolved, does make the mask far less powerful is done logically (this is not a hypothetical mask, in case anyone is/was wondering ^ ^)

[Yuki Akuma]

You know, a ghost that enters an antimagic field ceases to exist until the field is gone. It doesn't just get banished back to the ethereal - incorporeal undead specifically wink out of existence momentarily.

So a fireball passing through an AMF isn't really the oddest thing about it...