How to deal with a difficult player

[ShadowsGrnEyes]

Ok so I'm in a game that I am enjoying very very much. It's a great game. there is however one problem.

one of the players tends to. . . metagame, power play, and in general do things that make life hard for the rest of us.

The metagaming is what metagaming always is, annoying, frustrating, and it takes away from the RP experience.

It's not a power game (i'm playng a freakin healer). So the power playing is mildly annoying, don't get me wrong I understand the desire to optimize but this guy feels the need to show off his optimization at every turn. Often glory hounding in the hopes for more XP.

then theres the arguments, stemming either from the glory hounding or often from doing things that should be against his alignment. Example: for the most part we are all good aligned so you can see why shooting the half starved bandits, who just wanted to feed their kids, in the back as they run away might bother some of us.

Now here's what REALLY gets me. The DM has been doing his job of punishing this guy for his behavior. The guys been Cursed. He's been dominated and lost control of his character, He's had experience penalties. He's DIED . . .TWICE and had to reroll . and he STILL does it. Finnaly he's been spoken to about it and he'll get better for a while "cause he shuts up and pouts" then he'll go right back to it.

Is there anything the oh wise forums can think of that might help teach this guy a lesson,(excluding kicking him from the game). I'm looking for somthing devious I can do in game that would put him in his place as I am a player in this game not the GM.

[Katana_Geldar]

This guys seems like a meta-gaming munchkin, and it looks as if he won't reform. You could either get him out of the game or the DM uses him to play one of the villains.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Geas

Dominate Person.

Mindrape.

[Rubo233]

Sadly it sounds like this player may need to be let go.
Talk to him and let him know that his play style is getting on everyone's nerves and it making the game less fun for you. Also talk to your DM and let him know how you feel and if other players feel the same way.

Or you could just talk to him in character if he continues acting evilly and let him know you cannot continue to travel with a person like him.

[Sinfire Titan]

To everyone who reads this and thinks the player is a munchkin:Can it. You need more context to make such accusations. As far as we know, the player could just be playing a basic Chain Tripper and even holding back on the Power Attack.

That's out of the way, onto the real post:

one of the players tends to. . . metagame, power play, and in general do things that make life hard for the rest of us.

How? How does he metagame? How is his Power Gaming disrupting game play? What actions does he take to make things difficult? Without that information, there's nothing we can suggest short of kicking him out that will actually solve this problem. You need to provide several scenarios to put things into context for us, seeing as we aren't playing in your group.'


Basically, we need specific information before we can help you.

then theres the arguments, stemming either from the glory hounding or often from doing things that should be against his alignment. Example: for the most part we are all good aligned so you can see why shooting the half starved bandits, who just wanted to feed their kids, in the back as they run away might bother some of us.

This may just be Lawful Stupid mentality, and can be corrected by talking the player IC, not OOC. If the character is made aware that his actions are crossing the line, the player may have that character reform (if he's really good at RPing, he could even pull a Heel-Face-Turn IC).

[Rhiannon87]

Is there anything the oh wise forums can think of that might help teach this guy a lesson,(excluding kicking him from the game). I'm looking for somthing devious I can do in game that would put him in his place as I am a player in this game not the GM.

I'm sure there's a reason for it, but I'd just like to clarify: why can't this player be removed? I mean, it sounds like exactly no one is enjoying his presence in the game.

As a player... well, you're the healer. You could just deny him healing, but that might present some in-character issues, depending on your alignment, and some major out of character whining.

[Skorj]

Sadly it sounds like this player may need to be let go.
Talk to him and let him know that his play style is getting on everyone's nerves and it making the game less fun for you. Also talk to your DM and let him know how you feel and if other players feel the same way.

Or you could just talk to him in character if he continues acting evilly and let him know you cannot continue to travel with a person like him.

It really really helps to actually say "this is making the game less fun for us" to the guy. If you don't explain it to him, he won't understand why you want him to stop. Few people are deliberately jerks to those around them, but many are unable to understand the effects of their actions on others. Usually gamers who take power-gaming to immersion-breaking levels just don't see that it makes it less fun for fellow players, since they're playing the way they see as fun.

Keep it in terms of human-to-human around a table. The problem isn't that his character is powerful, the problem is that his character's actions are disruptive.

[ShadowsGrnEyes]

To everyone: I really appreciate the input, thank you

How? How does he metagame? How is his Power Gaming disrupting game play? What actions does he take to make things difficult? Without that information, there's nothing we can suggest short of kicking him out that will actually solve this problem. You need to provide several scenarios to put things into context for us, seeing as we aren't playing in your group.

He tries to tell other players what their characters need to do and he rule-lawyers constantly. (we have a house rule that for dramatic purposes, DM's word is law) He'll spend 20 minutes explaining why he should be allowed to do somthing the DM has already ruled against, often pulling out the rule books. . . in the middle of combat . . . and insisting that an action or somthing he's wants to do is do-able. .

Another Example: We were in a fight with a creature who's armor class we had trouble hitting. He tried to say out of character that we all needed to start using aid another to help him hit the monster. When we called him on it, He had his character demand that the bard "aid" him the next round. When the bard used bardic music(he had been casting a few spells), rather than use the "aid another" action. It devolved into an argument between the two.

Another Example: Our character's dont know a particular fact about a monster. undead in this case and the limited effects of piercing weapons. suddenly he's trying to add fire to his arrows (cool but his normal arrows had been fine until he encounterd a monster that took less damage from said arrows) his character had no idea his arrows werent doing as much damage, he however did and tried to justify spending several rounds attatching burning rags to his arrows so he could do fire damage while his party members were fighting for their lives.

This may just be Lawful Stupid mentality, and can be corrected by talking the player IC, not OOC. If the character is made aware that his actions are crossing the line, the player may have that character reform (if he's really good at RPing, he could even pull a Heel-Face-Turn IC).

he tried to justify it with "they attacked us first"

[Mystic Muse]

he tried to justify it with "they attacked us first"

guess what? That isn't lawful or good by any means. that's true, maybe chaotic neutral. It's evil if the other side clearly is trying to surrender unless they've done something else that makes them deserve death.

[Sinfire Titan]

He tries to tell other players what their characters need to do and he rule-lawyers constantly. (we have a house rule that for dramatic purposes, DM's word is law) He'll spend 20 minutes explaining why he should be allowed to do somthing the DM has already ruled against, often pulling out the rule books. . . in the middle of combat . . . and insisting that an action or somthing he's wants to do is do-able. .

I can provide sympathies with both sides here. As a DM, it irks me a little every time the PCs use OOC knowledge to their advantage (I don't comment on it as I'm prone to doing the same thing, and even provide info for them without meaning to). However, I've lost characters because of such a ruling (how would you feel if you found out that your character died because a fire was started by a spell that gives off no heat or sparks, and the DM refused to rewind to that point because of that ruling? Or that the DM was actually sorely mistaken and his ruling is actually worse than what the RAW would be, such as by misconstruing damage reduction to apply to all damage and not just specific types?)

Another Example: We were in a fight with a creature who's armor class we had trouble hitting. He tried to say out of character that we all needed to start using aid another to help him hit the monster. When we called him on it, He had his character demand that the bard "aid" him the next round. When the bard used bardic music(he had been casting a few spells), rather than use the "aid another" action. It devolved into an argument between the two.

Now this is inexcusable. The end results would actually be better if the Bard uses Inspire Courage (I do hope it was Inspire Courage he used, and not something else) than if the Bard used the Aid Another action. It would be understandable if the Bard started Countersonging mid-battle against a noncaster, but I assume he used Inspire Courage.

Now, if the Bard actively excluded the metagamer from the effects, then he has legitimate grounds to argue on.

Another Example: Our character's dont know a particular fact about a monster. undead in this case and the limited effects of piercing weapons. suddenly he's trying to add fire to his arrows (cool but his normal arrows had been fine until he encounterd a monster that took less damage from said arrows) his character had no idea his arrows werent doing as much damage, he however did and tried to justify spending several rounds attatching burning rags to his arrows so he could do fire damage while his party members were fighting for their lives.

This is also unacceptable use of metaknowledge. The PLAYER himself should have been reprimanded for doing so, not the character. The PCs should have had a stern talk with the offending character after the encounter and after the player himself was chastised for such blatant metagaming (never mind how poor his choice of actions were).

he tried to justify it with "they attacked us first"

This could be understandable if they used lethal damage. If not, then he should have been arrested IC for excessive force.

You still haven't addressed his Power Gaming in full. I've got the Bardic Music scenario to work with here, and that's it. The fire damage one is a better example of poor metagaming. What about his character is too powerful for your play group? What combinations of abilities has the DM been punishing him for using?

[Johanas]

And now a comment from the GM. Of this very game in question. Me.

This player is an alright guy. Not amazing, just an alright guy. It may come down to me kicking him, but at the moment I am trying to avoid that. What she is referring to is a blatant lack of playing in character, a complete lack of playing one's alignment, and no. He is not a new player, he is a veteran. As am I. Let's just say I've facepalmed more than once. The serious issue here is that I have tried everything I can, and nothing seems to be sticking. I have put him on "probation" since he is even prone to randomly skipping games, and that is the only thing (relatively) keeping him in line. The thing is, we get more done on the sessions he's gone, than two sessions he's present.

[Sinfire Titan]

And now a comment from the GM. Of this very game in question. Me.

This player is an alright guy. Not amazing, just an alright guy. It may come down to me kicking him, but at the moment I am trying to avoid that. What she is referring to is a blatant lack of playing in character, a complete lack of playing one's alignment, and no. He is not a new player, he is a veteran. As am I. Let's just say I've facepalmed more than once. The serious issue here is that I have tried everything I can, and nothing seems to be sticking. I have put him on "probation" since he is even prone to randomly skipping games, and that is the only thing (relatively) keeping him in line. The thing is, we get more done on the sessions he's gone, than two sessions he's present.

Sounds like he's on the lower-right quadrant of the RP/Min-Max graph. He may be more suited to running/playing in a 4E campaign, or he may not have read enough fluff. Depending on the context, dropping him may be the fastest and most effective option, but it will leave resentment no matter how it is handled.

[Mystic Muse]

And now a comment from the GM. Of this very game in question. Me.

This player is an alright guy. Not amazing, just an alright guy. It may come down to me kicking him, but at the moment I am trying to avoid that. What she is referring to is a blatant lack of playing in character, a complete lack of playing one's alignment, and no. He is not a new player, he is a veteran. As am I. Let's just say I've facepalmed more than once. The serious issue here is that I have tried everything I can, and nothing seems to be sticking. I have put him on "probation" since he is even prone to randomly skipping games, and that is the only thing (relatively) keeping him in line. The thing is, we get more done on the sessions he's gone, than two sessions he's present.

you know, I'm not going to pretend that I know a ton about being a dungeon master but I know this. you should simply DROP this guy. If he was a newb I'd allow him for a little while longer so he could learn. However since it's clear he should be more than capable of following your rules and that he should be able to play without so much metagaming. If the players liked himm I could STILL understand keeping him but it's clear nobody likes him and he's a plain bad player. I repeat. you should just drop this guy.

[Johanas]

Running a six player game, I tend to not see everything. This is just what I've noticed.

1. He's tried Rapid Shotting (as per his feat Rapid Shot) as a Standard Action. While using And saying that he can, because he has a class feature that allows it. He's a fourth level fighter. Obviously, he didn't produce said class feature when asked. And therefore does not have the minimum BAB for Manyshot.

2. Players have supposedly seen him reroll damage dice. And attack rolls. But this I haven't seen.

3. He (as a character) thought to attack these little creatures he saw. Because the player knew they were imps. How did the fourth level fighter know they were imps? You got me...

Mostly I am just sick of the rules lawyering. It's detrimental, but he has gotten better. A very little.

[Johanas]

Sounds like he's on the lower-right quadrant of the RP/Min-Max graph. He may be more suited to running/playing in a 4E campaign, or he may not have read enough fluff. Depending on the context, dropping him may be the fastest and most effective option, but it will leave resentment no matter how it is handled.

Pretty much exactly my sentiment. Trying to avoid hard feelings, but at this point, I think it is inevitable.

[ShadowsGrnEyes]

Note: yes the bard used inspire courage

You still haven't addressed his Power Gaming in full. I've got the Bardic Music scenario to work with here, and that's it. The fire damage one is a better example of poor metagaming. What about his character is too powerful for your play group? What combinations of abilities has the DM been punishing him for using?

it's not that the build itself is too powerfull, his latest character is an archery based fighter character. The problem is that he insists on facing every problem with actions that will get him the most attention. . . even diplomacy which he cant do and feels that he should get extra experience for role playing when all he does is destroy other characters attempts at role playing by inciting fights. perhaps its less powerplaying and more Spolight stealing.

Example: our bard was brilliantly talking us out of a sticky situation. The player in question sneaks out the back of the wagon and breaks a flask of oil over the head of a gnoll bodyguard with an obviously quick temper. . . disregarding the fact that the bard was succesfully difusing the situation. . . and had he just let the bard take care of things we could have all gone on our merry way.

similar events have happened multiple times where fights could end or not start if he just stopped trying to show off how terribly clever he thinks he is. its not like he doesnt get plenty of combat either.

Its the out of character/alignment stuff the DM has been punishing him for.

[Sinfire Titan]

Running a six player game, I tend to not see everything. This is just what I've noticed.

1. He's tried Rapid Shotting (as per his feat Rapid Shot) as a Standard Action. While using And saying that he can, because he has a class feature that allows it. He's a fourth level fighter. Obviously, he didn't produce said class feature when asked. And therefore does not have the minimum BAB for Manyshot.

2. Players have supposedly seen him reroll damage dice. And attack rolls. But this I haven't seen.

3. He (as a character) thought to attack these little creatures he saw. Because the player knew they were imps. How did the fourth level fighter know they were imps? You got me...

Mostly I am just sick of the rules lawyering. It's detrimental, but he has gotten better. A very little.

Ok, axe him. Not literally, but you know. He's cheating, and needs to be dropped hard. Warn the other local DMs about him, if you know any.


Incidentally, he's referring to the Targeteer variant Fighter from Dragon Magazine. But Dragon Magazine was published by and owned by Paizo back then, and thus is 3rd party (so it may not have been allowed by you).


Edit: And he's not a Power Gamer, he's an attention whore cheating little Munchkin. Power Gamers can be very respectable players, and will openly admit their mistakes. You guys are describing a cold-blooded Munchkin.

[Mystic Muse]

next time he rules lawyers tell him "this is the way we're playing. Deal with it. If you can't don't play and GTHO." (get the heck out.)

[Johanas]

next time he rules lawyers tell him "this is the way we're playing. Deal with it. If you can't don't play and GTHO." (get the heck out.)

You're great Kyuubi, really.

Ok, axe him. Not literally, but you know. He's cheating, and needs to be dropped hard. Warn the other local DMs about him, if you know any.


Incidentally, he's referring to the Targeteer variant Fighter from Dragon Magazine. But Dragon Magazine was published by and owned by Paizo back then, and thus is 3rd party (so it may not have been allowed by you).

Ahh. Thanks. You would have to ask Shadowsgrneyes about anything from Dragon Magazine, she is much more knowledgeable than I. Thanks for the clarification. I really do appreciate that.

[ShadowsGrnEyes]

2. Players have supposedly seen him reroll damage dice. And attack rolls. But this I haven't seen.

I was completely unaware of THIS little tidbit until now.

Incidentally, he's referring to the Targeteer variant Fighter from Dragon Magazine. But Dragon Magazine was published by and owned by Paizo back then, and thus is 3rd party (so it may not have been allowed by you).

i can speak for my Gm on this as there are tons of things I'VE tried to get him to let me use from Dragon magazing, there is absoloutly NO dragon magazine in his campaigns (so far, i'm sure i'll convince him to let a few things in eventually)

[Mystic Muse]

You're great Kyuubi, really.
.

I just want to be sure here. this isn't meant as an insult right?

If you REALLY want to keep the player kindly ask him to STOP. Tell him about your rules, tell him that he has to go thorugh you to get past those and tell him he isn't playing within his alignment and you will change his alignment if it becomes necessary. also change up resistances next time. the undead normally weak to fire and the player knows this? make the undead weak to ice or any of the others and is actually healed or strengthened by fire. If he claims that "here's the rulebook and it doesn't work that way." tell him you're getting ideas from the MM but these monsters aren't actually what he knows as undead or whatever and are homebrew. This takes away his OOC advantage.

[Johanas]

I just want to be sure here. this isn't meant as an insult right?

If you REALLY want to keep the player kindly ask him to STOP. Tell him about your rules, tell him that he has to go thorugh you to get past those and tell him he isn't playing within his alignment and you will change his alignment if it becomes necessary. also change up resistances next time. the undead normally weak to fire and the player knows this? make the undead weak to ice or any of the others and is actually healed or strengthened by fire. If he claims that "here's the rulebook and it doesn't work that way." tell him you're getting ideas from the MM but these monsters aren't actually what he knows as undead or whatever and are homebrew. This takes away his OOC advantage.

No insulting. Us Old People (I'm 24 , so not THAT old I suppose, on the outside anyway) tend to think one way. I like the way your brain works is all. Very straight and to the point. It's refreshing. And yes, I have actually told him flat out his alignment is on the verge of changing. Good idea on the resistances though. It's really the little things that can make the difference. Besides, fire and skeletons can go just as well together as your standard cold and undead. I've been looking for an excuse to use my semi-new blazing skeleton mini from the newer mini sets. Don't know why I never thought of that myself.

Edit: Oh wait. I did use it. That was the night 4 of the 6 party members died. Whoops.

P.S. to my Edit: That's what they get for splitting up! "Roh no, Raggy! Red, Raphne and Relma got killed by a Recromancer!" That was Scooby Doo talking about a necromancer, not a mage specializing in armchairs. Just saying.

[ShadowsGrnEyes]

Besides, fire and skeletons can go just as well together as your standard cold and undead. I've been looking for an excuse to use my semi-new blazing skeleton mini from the newer mini sets. Don't know why I never thought of that myself.

yeahhhhhh. . . nobody give him an excuse to use the "angel or retribution" mini. . . oh wait. . .

just thought of a good way to deal with a bad player. . . . oh johannas *wanders off in search of GM*

[Johanas]

She just wandered off down the hall. She was sitting right next to me. *sigh*

[Mystic Muse]

No insulting. Us Old People (I'm 24 , so not THAT old I suppose, on the outside anyway) tend to think one way. I like the way your brain works is all. Very straight and to the point. It's refreshing. And yes, I have actually told him flat out his alignment is on the verge of changing. Good idea on the resistances though. It's really the little things that can make the difference. Besides, fire and skeletons can go just as well together as your standard cold and undead. I've been looking for an excuse to use my semi-new blazing skeleton mini from the newer mini sets. Don't know why I never thought of that myself.

Edit: Oh wait. I did use it. That was the night 4 of the 6 party members died. Whoops.

P.S. to my Edit: That's what they get for splitting up! "Roh no, Raggy! Red, Raphne and Relma got killed by a Recromancer!" That was Scooby Doo talking about a necromancer, not a mage specializing in armchairs. Just saying.

I must thank you for the compliment.

and yay! scooby survived.

[Mystic Muse]

She just wandered off down the hall. She was sitting right next to me. *sigh*

are you like invisible or something? CAN YOU BECOME INVISIBLE:??

[Sophismata]

You cast Fireball at the skeletons. Now you've made them angry, and on fire. They still advance towards the party.

[Kylarra]

You cast Fireball at the skeletons. Now you've made them angry, and on fire. They still advance towards the party.

Also the fire is on fire.

[ShadowFighter15]

Make them dwarf skeletons! Bonus points if one of the characters shouts out "AND HAVE I MENTIONED THEY ARE ON F***ING FIRE?!"

[Quietus]

Edit: And he's not a Power Gamer, he's an attention whore cheating little Munchkin. Power Gamers can be very respectable players, and will openly admit their mistakes. You guys are describing a cold-blooded Munchkin.

It's always nice when people know the difference. I myself am a power gamer - at least, the one with the greatest combination of drive and knowledge with that regard in my gaming group. I've also just started running a game with them, and made it clear that anyone who wants my assistance optimizing their characters, to a certain limit, can feel free to ask. The fun everyone had with the party Bard throwing 3d6 Dragonfire Inspiration at level 3 was fantastic. Those barbarian and ranger orcs went down quick, but it was an enjoyable fight. That is power gaming done right. What's been described by Johanas and ShadowsGrnEyes... that's power gaming done wrong. Though I'd be wrong to suggest that I'd never done that myself.