[3.5] Zovc's Settled on a "Build?"

[Zovc]

So, I've decided I can't make a character the way I want with my DM's restrictions (as much of a shame as that is).

I was talking with him, and he is okay with the Battle Sorcerer variant. He never gave a definite answer to racial paragon classes.

Me: How do you feel about racial paragon classes?
DM: They're stupid and I hate them.
:-P
Me: : /
Me: I was considering doing Half-Elf and Human. XD
DM: In addition to the Abjurant Champion stuff? O.o
Me: Why not?
Both give me a base attack bonus and can improve Sorcerer Casting levels.
...and can raise Charisma or whatever.
DM: Just blatant power-gaming. O.o
Me: If you say so.
I could just play a wizard. XD
DM: Wizards is cool.
Me: I'm trying to say that Wizard and Druid are probably the two most powerful classes in the game, whether you want to think so or not.
DM: I think Clerics are probably more powerful. But yeah, they're pretty good.
It's not automatically power-gaming to play a Wizard, though. Playing a Variant Sorcerer/Abjurant Champion/Human Paragon? Yeah.
Anyway, the most powerful character in the game was a 5th level kobold Favored Soul.
Me: Half Elf Paragon and Human Paragon (if I take all of it) stunt me a total of 3 sorcerer levels and I get 3d6 instead of 3d8 for three levels.
I'd probably just do Human Paragon if I was powergaming.
DM: Well, you must think the trade-off is worth it.
XD
Me: I do.
DM: I don't really remember what they do.
Me: I wouldn't be doing what I am if I was sincerely powergaming, though.
DM: Battle Sorcerer/Abjurant Champion? That's broken enough. You'll have a good BAB and be casting up to 9th level spells with absolutely no penalty. There's absolutely no trade-off for taking the prestige class.
Me: I could do better, though.
Fighter has a alternate class feature that allows him to wear light armor and not suffer with one arcane casting class.
DM: Fighter does not HAVE that, it's an alternate rule added to the fighter years later.
Me: ...and Battle Sorcerer wasn't?
DM: Yeah, it was.
But it's only broken if you make it that way.
Me: Are you saying I'm breaking the game?
DM: The class is probably unbalanced enough...
Me: Because I was telling you a much more powerful alternative to what I was going to do.
DM: I know there are more powerful builds.
You just wanna say that you're only power-gaming a little bit.
Me: Because there isn't a class made for what I want.
The only class I really want to play you won't let me.
I'm trying to create a character I want to play.
DM: You're trying to create a "build" you want to play. I haven't heard a word about a character.
Me: Because I think the two go hand-in-hand.
[…conversation gets derailed.]

So, I apparently can play a Battle Sorcerer/Abjurant Champion. I'll have to restrict my spell selections and bring the Abjurant Champion's hit dice down to a d8, too, to avoid being overpowered.

As a personal mockery of the DM (whether or not he realizes it, it is somewhat subtle), my Sorcerer will dislike wizards in general. People who read into magic, know how it works, and study it are too dangerous to him. This also justifies taking Dispel Magic and having a selection of Abjurations. This character will hold a certain respect for people who just pick up magic and use it (spontaneous casters), but will also probably think most are irresponsible. This guy, on the other hand, uses magic to supplement his combat as opposed to having it be the entirety of it.

Assuming I can use the paragon classes (which would actually keep me from "using 9th level spells"), what kind of implications does that have on a character? How should that be reflected in the gameplay of my character, if he's both a Half-Elf Paragon and a Human Paragon? Does it only have superficial implications (skin deep), as far as character is concerned?

As far as abilities are concerned, I'd think they should fall in this order: Charisma, Dexterity (elf nature, also sort of implies "good phisique"), Constitution, Strength, Intelligence, Wisdom. What do you think? Where should I put my two +2's to my abilities if I can, should I just dump them in charisma?

Also, what order do you think I should level these classes? I would be starting at level 1.

One more thing, Human Paragon lets me gain proficiency with one martial weapon, and Battle Sorcerer lets me gain proficiency with one one-handed martial weapon. What weapons should I choose with those? I was thinking Longsword and Greatsword.

[Kylarra]

Play a druid with the natural spell feat. >_>

<_<


that hates wizards


and clerics






I'd honestly say, skip the half elf paragon and just go with human. +2 casting stat isn't worth -2 cl.

[arguskos]

Ugh. To all my players (since at least 2-3 read this forum), should I ever act the way that DM above does, smack the crap out of me, mmkay?

To you, good sir, I frankly think you should just play a Wiz/Ftr/Eldritch Knight, since that way, you can still get 9th level casting. Then, point at your previous build, and say, "oh, so about those Paragon Classes, they don't look so bad now, do they? " That, or smack your DM in the face for being an idiot.

[Xenogears]

Well the paragon classes are supposed to represent that you are the epitome of the races ideals/stereotypes. So lets start with human. The DnD human is all about versatility and non-specialization. So maybe your character likes to do a little of everything (sorta fits with the magic+melee thing). Hes a dabbler? Something like that. Maybe hes the kind of person who gets really into something for a little while then forgets about it (like Roy's Dad Eugene in Oots).
For elven paragon. Epitome of elvishness. Arrogant I suppose. Probably into intellectual persuits as well.

Edit: Misread that... Half-elf paragon then.... More humanness with a bit of elvish arrogance is what I'd do...

[Draz74]

I totally agree with everything this DM says. I mean, it's just basic powergaming theory: the less you use Core, and especially as you increase your volume of independent splatbook sources, the more you're powergaming.

Variants always make a class more powerful (yes, even the PHB2 Shapechange Variant for the Druid; don't argue!) and how much you multiclass is a pretty good indicator of your powergaming too.

[/sarcasm]

Maybe hes the kind of person who gets really into something for a little while then forgets about it (like Roy's Dad Eugene in Oots).

If Eguene's a paragon of humanity, shoot me now. (Or Polymorph Any Object me, or something. I guess after you shoot me, you could just Reincarnate me ...)

[Temet Nosce]

Honestly, if I were you I'd do one of two things neither of which are what you're suggesting.

The first would be quit.

The second would be to play a straight Druid 20.

[Zovc]

To you, good sir, I frankly think you should just play a Wiz/Ftr/Eldritch Knight, since that way, you can still get 9th level casting. Then, point at your previous build, and say, "oh, so about those Paragon Classes, they don't look so bad now, do they? " That, or smack your DM in the face for being an idiot.

In my opinion, I shouldn't have to "powergame" (not that that's what you're suggesting, you're just suggesting I do something better than what I want to) to show my DM that I'm not powergaming.

I would have to take the alternate class feature of the fighter in order to be able to wear light armor and cast (like I want to). For some reason, that's off limits (see the conversation). Not only that, but I could then do Swashbuckler 3 and not have to ever worry about putting points in strength, what with int doing casting and damage, and dex doing armor and to-hit.

It truly disturbs me that this guy thinks he knows more about Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 just because he's played the game more than I have. (I have done as much, if not more reading, and I actually discuss the game with you folks and others. So, instead of having concepts of balance concieved by one playgroup, I am bombarded with everyone else's opinion of balance--which his standings do not agree with. )

This is all occouring because my DM doesn't like the Factotum. I'd really rather not discuss the absurdity of my DM's rules because this is the only opportunity I've had to actually play Dungeons and Dragons in the nineteen years of my life. I'm willing to put up with the **** and see it fail, then tell him what he's doing wrong.

[rezplz]

What level are you playing at? Because at around level 10 or so I found that paladin/sorcerer/abjurant champion works really well. Get the extend spell feat so you can cast mage armor in the morning, and have it going all day - bam, you don't need armor. What's that? Want more armor? As you go into battle, cast a quickened, extended, empowered (essentially) shield spell using up a simple first level spell slot. For ****s and giggles I almost played a gnome paladin/sorcerer/abj. champion with a scythe with spell storing. By the time I was finished with the character he was actually looking like he'd be very effective (which actually wasn't what I had in mind).

[Zovc]

What level are you playing at? Because at around level 10 or so I found that paladin/sorcerer/abjurant champion works really well. Get the extend spell feat so you can cast mage armor in the morning, and have it going all day - bam, you don't need armor. What's that? Want more armor? As you go into battle, cast a quickened, extended, empowered (essentially) shield spell using up a simple first level spell slot. For ****s and giggles I almost played a gnome paladin/sorcerer/abj. champion with a scythe with spell storing. By the time I was finished with the character he was actually looking like he'd be very effective (which actually wasn't what I had in mind).

Also, what order do you think I should level these classes? I would be starting at level 1.

;)

I know that Mage Armor essentially obsoletes armor, but I want that armor for style purposes.

[rezplz]

Bah! Can't read.

Starting at level 1, then? Cool. Well I'd recommend getting the caster levels first, and then making a one-or-two level dip in whatever melee class you choose before going into the prestige class.

Want the armor for style purposes? You could re-flavor the mage armor and instead have it conjure an actual chain shirt that has no spell failure chance or armor check penalty, but looks exactly the same (maybe a bit shinier). Flavoring it like that also would justify it being in the conjuration school. As it's written, it's invisible force armor which sounds more like abjuration... anyway.

If you're still set on having actual armor... Well, I don't like the battle sorcerer. After I've looked into it, it seems underpowered, if anything, to me. Knowing less spells seems like it's going to become a one-trick caster. And that's not a good thing. D: I don't know of any other way you'd get armor while still having (nearly) full caster progression, though...

[Another_Poet]

Personally, I find it odd that a character can be both a Human paragon and a Half-elf paragon. I know it's rules-legal but it seems illogical.

That said, your build sounds fine and yes I would pile all the +2's on Charisma. Your priorities for the other abilities seem off, however. If you really want this character to be someone who mainly uses magic to supplement his martial combat ability, Strength should be your second priority after Cha. Constitution should probably be after that, especially with the reduced HD. Dex and Int trail distantly in fourth and fifth places (your abjurations negate the need for Dex altogether, really) and Wis is your dump stat.

The above assumes you are going for a mostly melee character.

ap

[Zovc]

Bah! Can't read.

Starting at level 1, then? Cool. Well I'd recommend getting the caster levels first, and then making a one-or-two level dip in whatever melee class you choose before going into the prestige class.

Want the armor for style purposes? You could re-flavor the mage armor and instead have it conjure an actual chain shirt that has no spell failure chance or armor check penalty, but looks exactly the same (maybe a bit shinier). Flavoring it like that also would justify it being in the conjuration school. As it's written, it's invisible force armor which sounds more like abjuration... anyway.

If you're still set on having actual armor... Well, I don't like the battle sorcerer. After I've looked into it, it seems underpowered, if anything, to me. Knowing less spells seems like it's going to become a one-trick caster. And that's not a good thing. D: I don't know of any other way you'd get armor while still having (nearly) full caster progression, though...

My original plan was Half-Elf Paragon 1, it allows me to take Human Paragon next, which allows me to make Use Magic Device a class skill for my character (not just the class), then take Battle Sorcerer 1. From there, Both Paragon classes will gimme progression as a Sorc, I'd probably do Human first and get my bonus feat. This is, of course, a very sub-optimal way of doing things, and I would not be casting spells for 2+ game sessions.

There is no real reason (other than not having many skill points) not to take Battle Sorcerer first, I suppose. I guess I also just find it strange to become a racial paragon after the first level. XD

[Xenogears]

If Eguene's a paragon of humanity, shoot me now. (Or Polymorph Any Object me, or something. I guess after you shoot me, you could just Reincarnate me ...)

Eugene IS the paragon of DnD humans. Fortunately Humanity IRL tends to be a lot less schizophrenic then DnD seems to prtyray them. I mean half of all classes say something like "Humans because of their tendancy to think of the short term favor this class" Then there is the free feat and skill points because "humans are the jack-of-all-trades race." Although Eugene is also a jerk... Maybe he got a houseruled level of elven paragon to get that oh so tempting +4 to arrogance? Nevermind that he isn't an elf. That's not important.

[arguskos]

I'd agree with that sentiment as well Zovc, but sometimes, force is the only method people understand. When you present a clean, simple, easy-to-understand build that is more powerful in many ways than what you actually want, and show him WHY it is more powerful, he may relent somewhat.

I don't actually advocate breaking his game with something simple to show him the stupidity of his ideas, just showing him that sometimes, simple =/= unbroken.

[Kylarra]

Is there a particular reason you're playing a half-elf? Why not just play a human, and open with human paragon for the skills and able learner?

[olentu]

Bah! Can't read.

Starting at level 1, then? Cool. Well I'd recommend getting the caster levels first, and then making a one-or-two level dip in whatever melee class you choose before going into the prestige class.

Want the armor for style purposes? You could re-flavor the mage armor and instead have it conjure an actual chain shirt that has no spell failure chance or armor check penalty, but looks exactly the same (maybe a bit shinier). Flavoring it like that also would justify it being in the conjuration school. As it's written, it's invisible force armor which sounds more like abjuration... anyway.

If you're still set on having actual armor... Well, I don't like the battle sorcerer. After I've looked into it, it seems underpowered, if anything, to me. Knowing less spells seems like it's going to become a one-trick caster. And that's not a good thing. D: I don't know of any other way you'd get armor while still having (nearly) full caster progression, though...

Well one can get light armor with no arcane spell failure. Also one could dip a level of dragonslayer and then spellsword for -10% spell failure. I am going to assume that the whole mage armor is not a abjuration thing has been worked out already.

[Zovc]

I'd agree with that sentiment as well Zovc, but sometimes, force is the only method people understand. When you present a clean, simple, easy-to-understand build that is more powerful in many ways than what you actually want, and show him WHY it is more powerful, he may relent somewhat.

I don't actually advocate breaking his game with something simple to show him the stupidity of his ideas, just showing him that sometimes, simple =/= unbroken.

I hate to put it this way, but 'guy is extremely elitist. The fact that he has real experience with Dungeons and Dragons as opposed to just my "homework" and discussion, he automatically trumps any of my suggestions or opinions. If you look at the conversation, when I was trying to do what you're saying I should (not that I can't try to present it as its own case), he made an argument that I mooted and he seemed to feel like his point still stood. See below (so you don't have to look for what I'm talking about).

DM: Battle Sorcerer/Abjurant Champion? That's broken enough. You'll have a good BAB and be casting up to 9th level spells with absolutely no penalty. There's absolutely no trade-off for taking the prestige class.
Me: I could do better, though.
Fighter has a alternate class feature that allows him to wear light armor and not suffer with one arcane casting class.
DM: Fighter does not HAVE that, it's an alternate rule added to the fighter years later.
Me: ...and Battle Sorcerer wasn't?
DM: Yeah, it was.
But it's only broken if you make it that way.

Is there a particular reason you're playing a half-elf? Why not just play a human, and open with human paragon for the skills and able learner?

In all honesty, no. I was just kind of happy to see that Half-Elf Paragon sort of fixed my issues with Half-Elves. I probably should just do Human Paragon 1, Battle Sorcerer 1, Human Paragon 2, 3, then back to B. Sorc. until I can get into Abjurant Champion.

[Doc Roc]

Ugh. To all my players (since at least 2-3 read this forum), should I ever act the way that DM above does, smack the crap out of me, mmkay?

I'll find you, slip into your playgroup, and then the terror will begin.

[Zovc]

Well one can get light armor with no arcane spell failure. Also one could dip a level of dragonslayer and then spellsword for -10% spell failure. I am going to assume that the whole mage armor is not a abjuration thing has been worked out already.

Nope, that would involve too much "cherry picking," which is blatant powergaming. Also, Mage Armor is a conjuration, he's acknowledged that its weird, but rules are made that way for a reason.

[Doc Roc]

Nope, that would involve too much "cherry picking," which is blatant powergaming. Also, Mage Armor is a conjuration, he's acknowledged that its weird, but rules are made that way for a reason.

Actually, there's every indication that there was perfectly NO reason for many spells to be in their schools. Literally half of this stuff was written independently, with no thought of implications.

[lsfreak]

Actually, there's every indication that there was perfectly NO reason for many spells to be in their schools. Literally half of this stuff was written independently, with no thought of implications.

Orbs are my favorite. You throw them... and they last forever and continue doing damage forever. And if your DM rules they don't continue doing damage, then you have major practical joke application for filling people's houses with orbs.

[Mikeavelli]

To be fair, when you're playing with a group of people who don't know anything about optimization, the Fighter/Sorc/Abjurant champion nonsense really is significantly better than everyone else.

I played just such a character in just such a group, got gimped ("No, you can't use Wraithstrike. No, you're doing too much damage with power attack, now it does less, I really hate swift actions, stop using them." etc.) - and STILL overpowered the rest of the party.

When you talk with people and think they're stupid for saying these things, ask yourself, "Is there anyone in this gaming group that would willingly play a monk?"

If the answer is yes, don't be surprised if they think using anything outside of core is powergaming. They don't obsess over the rules or even fully understand them, so they can be forgiven for ruling the way they do.

If the answer is no, then feel free to make fun of them.

[Zovc]

The best I can do is say, "Nope!" Tidesinger, I was representing someone else's opinion in my previous post.

I, personally, felt like I could put spells in better schools just looking at the first page of Sorcerer/Wizard spells.

[quick_comment]

Ask him if you can play a kobold.

[Zovc]

Ask him if you can play a kobold.

Nope, I would likely be killed upon entering most towns. He said something along the lines of that.

Mikeavelli, I don't know what I'm supposed to do if that's the case, because I simply can't play the character I want from that standpoint. How is that "fair?"

[Mongoose87]

Ask him if you can play a kobold.

I second this motion.

[quick_comment]

Nope, I would likely be killed upon entering most towns. He said something along the lines of that.

Mikeavelli, I don't know what I'm supposed to do if that's the case, because I simply can't play the character I want from that standpoint. How is that "fair?"

Find a kobold sorcerer, and take alter self or disguise self as a spell

[arguskos]

I'll find you, slip into your playgroup, and then the terror will begin.

Considering that you seem to be a reasonable type who is willing to play on the same level as others, I have no doubt you'd be awesome to game with.

[Myrmex]

Nope, I would likely be killed upon entering most towns. He said something along the lines of that.

"Play a kobold" is the first step to ascending to deityhood.

Mikeavelli, I don't know what I'm supposed to do if that's the case, because I simply can't play the character I want from that standpoint. How is that "fair?"

Just play a weaker gish. You don't need to have fullcasting & nearly full BAB to have fun, especially in the group that Mike describes. Why can't you settle for 15 BAB and 6/10 casting? With the right spell & feat selection, you should still be able to pull your weight and "play the character you want to"*.



*If the character you want to play is simply a character that is much more powerful than your comrades, I can definitely see the problem. Asking to have full BAB & full casting in low-powered game is kind of a douche move. Arguing that you COULD hulk out as "Batman", and that a gish isn't so bad, is a really bad argument. It's like saying "hey, can I be a jerk"? And when told no, please don't be a jerk, replying "Ok, then I'm going to be A REALLY HUGE JERK!! NYAH NYAH NYAH!!!"

[Zovc]

*If the character you want to play is simply a character that is much more powerful than your comrades, I can definitely see the problem. Asking to have full BAB & full casting in low-powered game is kind of a douche move. Arguing that you COULD hulk out as "Batman", and that a gish isn't so bad, is a really bad argument. It's like saying "hey, can I be a jerk"? And when told no, please don't be a jerk, replying "Ok, then I'm going to be A REALLY HUGE JERK!! NYAH NYAH NYAH!!!"

Well, this is where the problem comes in, misunderstanding.

Battle Sorcerer gives me Medium BAB. So do Half-Elf Pagaon and Human Paragon. If I took both paragon classes, I'd lose three levels of casting, and have 3d6 instead of 3d8 for three levels. As a Battle Sorcerer assuming I progressed full casting after that, I would only learn one eigth level spell and be able to cast it three times a day... and that's at level 20.

Assuming I took a paragon class at my first level, I'd be a relatively weak character. If I did Half-Elf and Human, that'd be two levels of noncasting (0 BAB). I wouldn't become an Abjurant Champion until level 7. At level 8, I might become a "powerful" character (bab 6, 5th level casting, swift level 2 abjurations).

If my math's right, at level 20, I would have a +15 BAB and a 17 CL. Not quite 20 in either, and I can cast 5 spells of every level, and 3 eighth a day. Three levels with a good Reflex, every other level would only be a good Will.

I'd say a non-powergamed cleric or druid is easily on par with my character. Now, that doesn't account for the flexibility of either class.