[3.5] Why does the swordsage maneuver recovery method suck?

[Myou]

It takes a full round action to recover just one maneuver, why? It seems completely useless.
The Warblade only has to make a standard attack to recover all of them.

[Boci]

It takes a full round action to recover just one maneuver, why? It seems completely useless.
The Warblade only has to make a standard attack to recover all of them.

They have alot more manouvers readied. It was built with the assumption that if you need to reacover a manouver mid battle, you're desperate already. Would it overpower them to change it? No not really. Maybe allow them to recover all manouvers as a full round action.

[tyckspoon]

^what he said. With a Swordsage, you should normally not need to recover maneuvers mid-battle. If you do, that's what the Adaptive Style feat is for- not only does it let you recover all of your maneuvers as a full-round action, it lets you change your maneuvers readied. It's normally recommended for Swordsages.

[Eldariel]

They all pick up Adaptive Style for efficient recovery anyways. But yeah, SS's idea is to use a large variety of maneuvers due to their insane Maneuvers Known and Maneuvers Readied numbers. But yah, Adaptive Style fixes their recovery; if anything, give it to them as a ~level 5 bonus feat.

[Myou]

They have alot more manouvers readied. It was built with the assumption that if you need to reacover a manouver mid battle, you're desperate already. Would it overpower them to change it? No not really. Maybe allow them to recover all manouvers as a full round action.

Ah, I didn't think to compare the numbers.

^what he said. With a Swordsage, you should normally not need to recover maneuvers mid-battle. If you do, that's what the Adaptive Style feat is for- not only does it let you recover all of your maneuvers as a full-round action, it lets you change your maneuvers readied. It's normally recommended for Swordsages.

They all pick up Adaptive Style for efficient recovery anyways. But yeah, SS's idea is to use a large variety of maneuvers due to their insane Maneuvers Known and Maneuvers Readied numbers. But yah, Adaptive Style fixes their recovery; if anything, give it to them as a ~level 5 bonus feat.

Aha, I see! Well then I'll just tell my player to take Adaptive Style!

Thanks guys!

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Honestly? It's probably because ToB was a test run for 4e. You have the guy who can refresh encounter powers at will, the guy whose encounter powers come back randomly, and the guy who can theoretically refresh one encounter power at a time, but who's really better off not doing it. The devs decided to take this one step further to "You really shouldn't recover maneuvers, so we'll just not let you" and the rest is history. If ToB were an early-3e, stand-alone book, I highly doubt the maneuver recovery mechanisms would have turned out the way they did.

[quick_comment]

Swordsages can recover maneuvers one at a time?

I did not know that.

[FMArthur]

Adaptive Style just changes your readied maneuvers. It doesn't refresh expended ones. You can use it to turn some of your readied maneuvers into some of the ones you've already expended for a similar effect to recovery, but it's not the same.

[Eldariel]

Adaptive Style just changes your readied maneuvers. It doesn't refresh expended ones. You can use it to turn some of your readied maneuvers into some of the ones you've already expended for a similar effect to recovery, but it's not the same.

There are about 6000 custserv and FAQ answers on this. For example:

Q The Adaptive Style feat in Tome of Battle allows you to change your readied maneuvers as a full round action rather than spending five minutes to do so. Does this...

A) Allow a martial adept to regain and change all of their maneuvers with a single full round action

or

B) Allow them to change the maneuver that is readied in their unexpended "slots".

A Adaptive Style will actually let you perform option A) from your list. So as a full round action, you can choose a new set of readied maneuvers, and in doing so, reset all of your maneuvers. I hope that clears things up. Have fun and good gaming!


Q With the Adaptive Style feat, will it refresh all the maneuvers of a multiclassed martial adept (Swordsage/Warblade for example), or just one class's maneuvers?

A Yes, it refreshes all the maneuvers of all your classes.


From here.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

There are about 6000 custserv and FAQ answers on this. For example:

Q The Adaptive Style feat in Tome of Battle allows you to change your readied maneuvers as a full round action rather than spending five minutes to do so. Does this...

A) Allow a martial adept to regain and change all of their maneuvers with a single full round action

or

B) Allow them to change the maneuver that is readied in their unexpended "slots".

A Adaptive Style will actually let you perform option A) from your list. So as a full round action, you can choose a new set of readied maneuvers, and in doing so, reset all of your maneuvers. I hope that clears things up. Have fun and good gaming!


Q With the Adaptive Style feat, will it refresh all the maneuvers of a multiclassed martial adept (Swordsage/Warblade for example), or just one class's maneuvers?

A Yes, it refreshes all the maneuvers of all your classes.


From here.

Sig. Especially since the CustServ on ToB is remarkably poor quality.

[Aneantir]

Adaptive Style just changes your readied maneuvers. It doesn't refresh expended ones. You can use it to turn some of your readied maneuvers into some of the ones you've already expended for a similar effect to recovery, but it's not the same.

Actually, I believe they asked the Sage about this once, and he said it refreshes your maneuvers because you're essentially readying them again.

[FMArthur]

Okay. The sage is wrong.

[wadledo]

Please provide facts for your arguments, then we might be inclined to think you right.

[Boci]

Okay. The sage is wrong.

Not really. Its a bit unclear, your interpretation seems less likely then the sages.

[FMArthur]

Interpretation? It says "you change your readied maneuvers at any time by taking a full-round action". There is no refresh or recovery mentioned there. Just a change. You can 'interpret' any additional clauses onto a sentence in your own mind. It doesn't change what's written.

[Boci]

Interpretation? It says "you change your readied maneuvers at any time by taking a full-round action". There is no refresh or recovery mentioned there. Just a change. You can 'interpret' any additional clauses onto a sentence in your own mind. It doesn't change what's written.

Yes but the next sentence tells you that if your a crusader you gain new granted manouvers. That implies that the other classes gain similar benefits, such as recovering manouvers.

[FMArthur]

Yes but the next sentence tells you that if your a crusader you gain new granted manouvers. That implies that the other classes gain similar benefits, such as recovering manouvers.

I don't see the implication. Crusaders have completely a different maneuver system and this exception is only to let them benefit from the feat at all.

[Eldariel]

I don't see the implication. Crusaders have completely a different maneuver system and this exception is only to let them benefit from the feat at all.

It says you may change your readied maneuvers. That is, you take your maneuvers, lose all you've got right now and choose new ones readied. That this happens to entail them all becoming readied again as you're basically just making a new list in place of the old one. *Shrug* Doesn't feel farfetched to me.

[shadow_archmagi]

It is hard to change one's ammo type without reloading.

[Elfin]

Well said, Shadow.

[FMArthur]

I'm glad to see so many that can only see what they want to see. Really, it's been enlightening, folks. Truly the swordsage must have been built entirely around this stupidly powerful version of Adaptive Style you've created based on assumptions of equivalency to similar actions.

[Fax Celestis]

It's not "seeing what we want to see", it's asking a question (like so) and getting a response that makes sense.

Q: Dear Sage
If a character uses the Adaptive Style feat (Tome of Battle p28) after he has expended some of his readied maneuvers, does he choose new readied maneuvers equal to the maximum number he can ready, or equal to the number he hasn’t yet expended?
--Matt

A: Using the Adaptive Style feat completely resets the character’s readied maneuvers, making them all available for use.

If you’re a crusader, you also reset your granted maneuvers.

So it seems that the intent of the feat is to spend a full-round action to re-ready all of your maneuvers as if it were the start of the day. And at the start of the day, you have all your maneuvers available to you.

From a bookkeeping standpoint, it's also a pain in the neck to go through and figure out what's readied, what's not--and also very metagameable.

[Boci]

I'm glad to see so many that can only see what they want to see. Really, it's been enlightening, folks. Truly the swordsage must have been built entirely around this stupidly powerful version of Adaptive Style you've created based on assumptions of equivalency to similar actions.

Stupidly powerful? Your wasting a full round action to do what the other classes do in much less time. Maybe your interpretation is right. I do not care, adaptive style is weak enough is you allow it to recover manouvers. What point is there of taking that if it doesn't?

Oh, and in the normal line, it states you have to take 5 minutes to do the same. Your basically saying that if you take 5 minutes to rearange your manouver, you do not regain any initiated ones.

[Wings of Peace]

My opinion on all this is take it as you want. Personally I side with Arthur but given that the Sage has a history of disagreeing with itself, correcting itself later, then creating a time space paradox in some distant corner of the web it's really up to you and your dm if you wan't to take the Sage's word as the correct word or not.

[Eldariel]

My opinion on all this is take it as you want. Personally I side with Arthur but given that the Sage has a history of disagreeing with itself, correcting itself later, then creating a time space paradox in some distant corner of the web it's really up to you and your dm if you wan't to take the Sage's word as the correct word or not.

Considering that both, CustServ and Char Ops agree with The Sage here and it makes the ability actually interesting powerlevel-wise, I'm inclined to actually agree with the Sage here.

[Tiki Snakes]

Considering that both, CustServ and Char Ops agree with The Sage here and it makes the ability actually interesting powerlevel-wise, I'm inclined to actually agree with the Sage here.

It does seem like all the possible semi-official sources are singing from EXACTLY the same song-sheet. Pretty conclusive, I'd say, short of 'official' errata.

[AslanCross]

It does seem like all the possible semi-official sources are singing from EXACTLY the same song-sheet. Pretty conclusive, I'd say, short of 'official' errata.

The official errata on ToB is sadly damaged and they never bothered to repair it. -_- Three sources agreeing is the best we can get, true.

[Sinfire Titan]

Considering they dropped the ball on the actual errata (something I will personally never let them live down), every little bit counts for ToB.

That said, I've suggested a fix for the Swordsage's recovery mechanic. Instead of the normal method, try this:

"A Swordsage recovers his maneuvers awkwardly in that the longer the encounter, the less he can recover. He may take a full round action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity to meditate quickly and refresh his mind, recovering a number of maneuvers equal to half the number he recovered on the last attempt (rounding up, in this way he can never run out of maneuvers).

If you have not recovered your maneuvers this encounter, or use the Adaptive Style feat to alter your maneuvers readied, the number of maneuvers you recover is equal to half the maximum number of Swordsage maneuvers you are able to ready, rounded up. You must select which maneuvers are recovered in this way, but you always have control over which ones are recovered and which ones remain expended. The number of maneuvers you can recover with this ability always resets at the beginning of a new encounter."

Still a full-round action, but it's a serious improvement that makes high-level Swordsage recovery playable.

[Douglas]

Or just let them recover all maneuvers with a full round action. That's still quite a bit worse than either Warblade (swift action for all maneuvers and you can still attack - even with a standard action strike) or Crusader (all maneuvers with no action at all).

Seriously, they've got lower BAB despite being a primary melee combatant, a primary stat that doesn't affect attack bonus, and class features approximately on par with the other two classes. Compensating for their longer list of known and readied maneuvers with an inferior recovery mechanic is reasonable, but making it a full round action is quite enough. Reducing the amount recovered as well is overkill, and dropping it all the way down to one is just absurd.

[quick_comment]

- even with a standard action strike

No, it specifically says that they cannot combine refreshing maneuvers with a strike