Finnesseful Warrior build

[Melamoto]

I'm making a character for a level 20 Gestalt game (Yes, yes, uber). I decided to go with a Swashbuckler scout build. It's 46 point buy (Yes, yes, uber).

So far, I have:

Str: 14
Dex: 20 (Base 18)
Con: 12
Int: 21 (Base 18)
Wis: 8
Cha: 12

Swashbuckler 10/Duelist 10//Scout 20

This is a first build idea, so it is not perfect. And most of all, I'm stuck on feats. Apart from the Spring Attack chain, I can't think of many at all. Help or ideas? Feel free to criticise my build and suggest others, but try to keep it reasonable and not cheesy.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

Omgs... Gestalt... how I miss thee..

Swordsage 2 (AC Bonus from WIS in light armor and the Shadow Blade feat [DEX to damage])
/ Swashbuckler 3 (INT to damage)
/ Fighter 2 (you need the feats to pull off:)
/ Dervish 10 (Best TWF'er in the game, with the skirmish damage you will be amazing on damage)
/ Tempest x (Filler)

If you cannot do Swordsage for some bizarre reason, then take SW3/FTR2/DRV10/TMP5

// Scout 20 (How I bestow love for the scout...)

You would need to talk your DM into swapping one of the bonus Spring Attack feats from Dervish or Scout into something else. Elusive Target is a good idea.

Dodge, Mobility, and Combat Expertise are required for Dervish. You can pick these up with a human, and 2 fighter level feats. You get bonus Spring Attack from Scout and Dervish (mentioned above). Elusive Target is the best choice for a defensive feat. Improved Trip and Knock-Down are very good choices also if you want to go with a mook-tripper and ripper.

If you can somehow talk your DM into letting you use DEX for trip instead of STR, do it. For the Scout bonus feats; Quick Reconniter is a good feat. You may want to consider getting a level of Ranger and the Swift Hunter feat; for the crit-immune nasties (you can then Skirmish your favored enemies).

One other thing; the Scout and Dervish bonuses to speed are both enhancement bonuses; by rule they do not stack. It can be argued (and possibly successfully) that the bonuses are based off of class skill and training and not magic; which Enhancement bonus suggests.

[SurlySeraph]

You would need to talk your DM into swapping one of the bonus Spring Attack feats from Dervish or Scout into something else. Elusive Target is a good idea.

You could probably successfully ask for your DM to change one to Bounding Assault, which lets you make a second attack on a spring attack.

[Eldariel]

Do you not want spellcasting out of principle? 'cause in a level 20 gestalt game, not having spellcasting seems like it could potentially come to bite you in the arse hard. Also, 46 point buy affords you some MAD. For example, some Bard-build could work very well.

Pick up Snowflake Wardance, Sublime Chord > Virtuoso, etc. on one side with some Scout/Ranger/Swift Hunter on the other side, pick a level of Cloistered Cleric for Travel Devotion (with quite a few turn attempts to burn thanks to your Charisma-focus), Slippers of Battle Dancing and maybe Arcane Duelist or so for 2 levels along with other good stuff ending up with near-full Skirmish + Favored Enemy progression, ability to deal Skirmish-damage to Favored Enemies, level 9 casting, attacks off Charisma, attack & damage off Charisma and heck, Divine Might for Charisma to damage. Oh, and full attacks obviously (Spring Attack means you'll be dealing maybe 30 points of damage per turn...which just doesn't compare to full attacks from anything).


But yeah, I strongly suggest against picking up no spellcasting whatsoever. You're playing on 20th level, stuff like Time Stop, Gate, Mind Blank, Greater Teleport, Greater Scrying, Contingency, Moment of Prescience, etc. is gonna be really, really handy and important.

[Ernir]

I would like a bit more information.

What books are available?

Do you know of any particular houserules that are in effect?

Do you have any idea what the others in your group will be doing? (First, this could help us know what kind of a party role you could fill. Second, it could tell us how powerful you need to be.)

Are the classes you picked important to you, or are you just going for a slick, mobile fighter-type?

And lastly... what counts as "cheese" at your table? Difficult to answer, I know, but the ideas fluctuate wildly as to what is cheesy and what is just making a character that doesn't suck.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

Do you not want spellcasting out of principle? 'cause in a level 20 gestalt game, not having spellcasting seems like it could potentially come to bite you in the arse hard. Also, 46 point buy affords you some MAD. For example, some Bard-build could work very well.

Pick up Snowflake Wardance, Sublime Chord > Virtuoso, etc. on one side with some Scout/Ranger/Swift Hunter on the other side, pick a level of Cloistered Cleric for Travel Devotion (with quite a few turn attempts to burn thanks to your Charisma-focus), Slippers of Battle Dancing and maybe Arcane Duelist or so for 2 levels along with other good stuff ending up with near-full Skirmish + Favored Enemy progression, ability to deal Skirmish-damage to Favored Enemies, level 9 casting, attacks off Charisma, attack & damage off Charisma and heck, Divine Might for Charisma to damage. Oh, and full attacks obviously (Spring Attack means you'll be dealing maybe 30 points of damage per turn...which just doesn't compare to full attacks from anything).


But yeah, I strongly suggest against picking up no spellcasting whatsoever. You're playing on 20th level, stuff like Time Stop, Gate, Mind Blank, Greater Teleport, Greater Scrying, Contingency, Moment of Prescience, etc. is gonna be really, really handy and important.

The OP was looking at pure melee, judging from the post. It may be that they already have the spell casting covered and they need a beatstick.
Every group, regardless of scope and ability, needs a beatstick

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Now playing: aesma daeva - Introit II
via FoxyTunes

[Mongoose87]

Forget the Swash and Duelist. Go high dex, weapon finesse, power attack and a spiked chain. Yeah, that's the spot.

[Eldariel]

The OP was looking at pure melee, judging from the post. It may be that they already have the spell casting covered and they need a beatstick.
Every group, regardless of scope and ability, needs a beatstick

That's why I asked: "Do you not want spellcasting out of principle?" He didn't spell out if he specifically didn't want casting or just made an initial draft without any. The game is Gestalt; no reason not to be a magical beatstick (other than "not wanting magic"). Especially on level 20.

Besides, Bard adds a lot of unique abilities to the beat-'em-up in adding Cha to damage, Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness, etc. so it should be really interesting, especially for a swashbuckling scout (Bard makes for a great Swashbuckler).

[PinkysBrain]

But yeah, I strongly suggest against picking up no spellcasting whatsoever. You're playing on 20th level, stuff like Time Stop, Gate, Mind Blank, Greater Teleport, Greater Scrying, Contingency, Moment of Prescience, etc. is gonna be really, really handy and important.

On the other hand, it's epic so money flows like water ... with epic WBL and the MIC rules you can get quite a lot of spellcasting without getting any of it from class levels.

Without MIC though you're screwed without spellcasting ... a swift dimension door is something pretty much any melee character should be capable off at that level IMO.

[Melamoto]

Do you not want spellcasting out of principle?

To be completely honest, yes. I would play a Gish type in this game, but there are no Dual Class type PrCs allowed. Also, there is a houserule that PrCs may be taken on both sides of a Gestalt at a time.

I'm planning on going for Rapid Blitz, and so with my Scout levels my general battle plan was to run forward (At least 20'), 3 attacks with +9d6 damage to each hit, along with my Intelligence and Strength.

But yeah, I completely forgot about the Tempest and Dervish. Doh.

The Tempest looks pretty good based on my spring attack build (An extra 3 attacks!). The Dervish, however, just seems a little...lackluster. It seems weird, but the only worthwhile benefits I can see for me are: +3 AC, Dervish Dance 5/day (Which is only 1 more attack than normal), and +2 Initiative. The Spring Attack feat is unneeded.

If you see any reason the Dervish would be worth 10 levels, then please tell me. 1/day getting 14 attacks is very nice, but really not worth it for me. I prefer not to have abilities which are limited to a number of times per day.

(Spring Attack means you'll be dealing maybe 30 points of damage per turn...which just doesn't compare to full attacks from anything).

Rapid Blitz and Tempest capstone.

[Wings of Peace]

What power level do you want? Do you want it to for sure be sort of a swift gish type char or is that up for debate as well. I ask so we know how badly you want to rape the universe. Also, what books?

[Melamoto]

Pretty much everything, barring things like BoVD or HoH.

My current idea is TWF Rapid Blitzing Invisible Blade.

Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Ranger 5/Invisible Blade 5/Tempest 5//Scout 20

6 Attacks from Rapid Blitz/Tempest Capstone; each has a natural +7d6 to damage. Thanks to feinting as a free action, assuming they fail sense motive (I get to take 10 on the bluff) then it's a total of +10d6 damage to each hit and I'm attacking their Flat-Footed AC. Precision immune enemies are accounted for by my Ranger levels.

[Eldariel]

To be completely honest, yes. I would play a Gish type in this game, but there are no Dual Class type PrCs allowed. Also, there is a houserule that PrCs may be taken on both sides of a Gestalt at a time.

As it's gestalt, you can just take casting on one side and melee on the other side, and thus become a Gish. Isn't that the whole point of Gestalt? None of the classes I suggested are dual progression; Arcane Duelist is a pure fighter that requires casting to enter (like Arcane Archer) and Sublime Chord & Virtuoso are pure Bard PrCs. Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8//Cloistered Cleric 1/Scout 6/Ranger 13 would be perfectly lega, for example, and very good at that.

As for Dervish Dance, it's worth noting that it also gives you Cleave, +5 to attack and +5 to damage, but yeah, that's about it. With regards to Tempest, you'll be giving up your Precise Strike from Duelist if dual wielding (dual wielding still obviously seems like the best option, and just giving up Duelist entirely). The capstone of Tempest...well, work it out with your DM, but by RAW it does not function with Bounding Assault line. Also note that Dervish Dance works with Haste among other things so it's realistically more than 1 extra attack.


Anyways, I'm just worried about if you'll have enough opponents on a regular basis to use Bounding Assault/Rapid Blitz efficiently and about the lack of ability to focus on dropping the most dangerous one first. That's one of the huge issues with the Spring Attack-line in the first place (in addition to being horribly expensive feat-wise).

Also, precision immune opponents (anything with Greater Fortifications, Undead, Elementals, Plants, etc.) are going to truly be your bane - your Int to damage, and your 9d6 are all precision damage. That's why I strongly suggest at least adding Ranger and Swift Hunter (it's a feat, so it should be fine); to get some capability to affect those creatures.


But yeah, if you're sure you'll be fine without spellcasting, I won't try to force it on you. Just be prepared to invest a lot into making up for lacking swift action teleportation and the like.

[Wings of Peace]

Pretty much everything, barring things like BoVD or HoH.

I have one last question then. Are you alright with throwing builds?

[Melamoto]

Anyways, I'm just worried about if you'll have enough opponents on a regular basis to use Bounding Assault/Rapid Blitz efficiently and about the lack of ability to focus on dropping the most dangerous one first.

When using the Spring Attack feat, you designate two foes rather than one. Your movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity from either of these foes. While using an attack action with the Spring Attack feat, you can make a second attack with a -5 penalty. You can use both attacks against one of the opponents targeted with this feat, or split your attacks between them.

Anyways, my new build idea is above.

[Claudius Maximus]

Have you noted that the Dervish dance lets you move and full attack? And that you have skirmish? All 14 of those attacks are at +9d6.

[Eldariel]

My bad regarding Bounding Assault. I was confusing it with some other ability (maybe some ToB maneuver...). I take you aren't interested in Swift Hunter? You're just gonna eat up the Critical Immune issue?

[Melamoto]

As my new build above says, I will have 5 levels in Ranger and Swift Hunter, with Constructs and Undead as my favoured enemies.

[Eldariel]

As my new build above says, I will have 5 levels in Ranger and Swift Hunter, with Constructs and Undead as my favoured enemies.

Oh, you put Ranger on THAT side. See, Swift Hunter stacks Scout and Ranger for Skirmish and Favored Enemy, so it would be more sensible to put it on the Scout-side; you'll end up with full progression anyways.

[Melamoto]

What, and lose Blindsight 30', permanent Freedom of Movement and 2 bonus feats? Give me 5 levels that I could put in Rangers current place that would justify that loss. From that point on it's only 1d6 Skirmish damage; it's not overlapping a whole lot.
Forgot about favoured enemy stacking, though. So my others will be Aberration, Elemental, Ooze, and Plant. I'll take the distracting attack and champion of the wild class variants.

[Eldariel]

What, and lose Blindsight 30', permanent Freedom of Movement and 2 bonus feats? Give me 5 levels that I could put in Rangers current place that would justify that loss. From that point on it's only 1d6 Skirmish damage; it's not overlapping a whole lot.

I was thinking of 2 levels of Ranger on that side. You'd still gain Ex Freedom of Movement, only losing out on 30' Blindsight (when you have Blindsense, it ain't that bad). You could take Barbarian on the other side, for some bonus feats and Rage and so on; Whirling Frenzy could work out really well, for example.

[Melamoto]

I don't feel comfortable taking dips in Barbarian. It's not really a class designed to be dipped in. Not to mention rage is useless for me since it means I can't use Feint, which nets me 3d6 damage per hit and attacking vs Flat-Footed.

Edit: How about having full scout, 2 ranger and 3 rogue on the other side. Spell reflection (Already have evasion from scout), trap (or spell) sense +1, and more Sneak Attack.

[Eldariel]

I don't feel comfortable taking dips in Barbarian. It's not really a class designed to be dipped in. Not to mention rage is useless for me since it means I can't use Feint, which nets me 3d6 damage per hit and attacking vs Flat-Footed.

Edit: How about having full scout, 2 ranger and 3 rogue on the other side. Spell reflection (Already have evasion from scout), trap (or spell) sense +1, and more Sneak Attack.

Works. Though you lose out on some BAB. Take Penetrating Strike so you can SA normally immune opponents as flanking. Also, Invisible Blade only allows for one free feint per round (see errata) so only one attack has the SA damage that way; I suggest looking into Flanking over Feinting.

That was also why I suggested Barbarian; Rage-limitations don't affect the SA+Skirmish+Spring chain and extra Str for To Hit + Damage and extra attack don't hurt at all.

[Melamoto]

Being a tumbling spring attacker, I can flank pretty much all the time as long as there's an ally in melee with the target. The BAB is not really a problem, since I'll only lose 1, and I won't miss out on iterative attacks or feats. I think Rogue has more to offer than Barbarian tbh, as long as I can get a flank off (Which I will be able to do).