[3.5] Rank the core melee feats!

[Saph]

You're playing in a core-only game run in the Level 1-10 range, and you've decided to play a martial character. With your regular feats at levels 1, 3, 6, and 9, plus a couple more from fighter levels, you're going to get a total of 6 feats, 7 if you're human. So what do you think are the best 6-7 core melee feats out there?

Obviously Power Attack is going to get on most lists, but from there on it gets more tricky. What about feats like Improved Initiative, Quick Draw, Blind-Fight, and Cleave - how do they stack up against the Mounted Combat feat tree? Is something like Iron Will worth putting in there, or would you be better off going for Expertise/Trip?

So rank your top 7 in the order of which ones you think are best.

And just to head off the inevitable smartass comments:

Spoiler

Show

• No, Leadership is not a melee feat.
• No, you can't play a ToB character. Core means the PHB and DMG and MM.
• No, you can't choose Natural Spell.
• I don't care if druids are better fighters than fighters are, it says "martial character".
• No, Augment Summoning isn't . . . look, just answer the question, okay? Please?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

What about Magical Aptitude and Skill Focus: UMD?

[Cyclocone]

Does Improved Initiative count as a melee feat? When Natural Spell doesn't?

Well, i'd say:

Power Attack
Improved Initiative
Combat Expertise
Combat Reflexes
Improved Trip
EWP: Spiked Chain

[Eloel]

A rogue is better off with Quick Draw, TWF, ITWF, Imp Init, Weapon Finesse..
A tripper is better off with Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Spiked Chain)
An archer would pretty much like the entire archery tree.

Useless feats would include;
Shield-tree
Anything-but-Power Attack from PA tree.
Improved Disarm/Feint
Whirlwind Attack
Dodge tree

[Kaiyanwang]

Maybe

Power Attack
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Combat Reflexes
Cleave
Improved Initiative
Improved Disarm OR Sunder and know how to use them

And a reach weapon. Heavy melee-type (I mean for heavy fighter and barbarian, light say, a rogue).

[Saph]

Does Improved Initiative count as a melee feat?

Think of it as: "If you're playing a core-only fighter/ranger/barbarian/whatever, what seven feats would you take?"

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

Power Attack
Improved Bull Rush
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack (though it sucks to get there)

[FMArthur]

Toughness
Toughness
Toughness
Toughness
Toughness
Toughness
Toughness

Seriously guys. Toughness is probably the best feat ever, especially for the front-line melee guy. If you're getting Toughness every third level, it's like you've increased your Constitution by a full 2 points for crying out loud! So if you take it at first level, and every fighter bonus feat level... well, you'll have a lot of HP now, won't you? It's practically the path to immortality. They'll just keep hitting you and hitting you and you just won't die!

Others may decry Toughness in favor of Power Attack and other well-known traps, but if Toughness is going to make you last twice as long in a fight, you're effectively doubling your number of attacks, at no attack penalty at all! That beats the hell out of Power Attack even if it doubled your damage, which it doesn't. The ultimate charger feat, Toughness lets you rush heedlessly into danger, repeatedly. If you're properly roleplaying a fighter with 3 intelligence, 3 charisma and physicals in the 20s, you need Toughness to get through life.

[Myshlaevsky]

Toughness
Toughness
Toughness
Toughness
Toughness
Toughness
Toughness

Seriously guys. Toughness is probably the best feat ever, especially for the front-line melee guy. If you're getting Toughness every third level, it's like you've increased your Constitution by a full 2 points for crying out loud! So if you take it at first level, and every fighter bonus feat level... well, you'll have a lot of HP now, won't you? It's practically the path to immortality. They'll just keep hitting you and hitting you and you just won't die!

Others may decry Toughness in favor of Power Attack and other well-known traps, but if Toughness is going to make you last twice as long in a fight, you're effectively doubling your number of attacks, at no attack penalty at all! That beats the hell out of Power Attack even if it doubled your damage, which it doesn't. The ultimate charger feat, Toughness lets you rush heedlessly into danger, repeatedly. If you're properly roleplaying a fighter with 3 intelligence, 3 charisma and physicals in the 20s, you need Toughness to get through life.

I was expecting this, but it was still excellent.

[Doc Roc]

I guess core doesn't include the XPH here?

[Cieyrin]

Toughness
Toughness
Toughness
Toughness
Toughness
Toughness
Toughness

Seriously guys. Toughness is probably the best feat ever, especially for the front-line melee guy. If you're getting Toughness every third level, it's like you've increased your Constitution by a full 2 points for crying out loud! So if you take it at first level, and every fighter bonus feat level... well, you'll have a lot of HP now, won't you? It's practically the path to immortality. They'll just keep hitting you and hitting you and you just won't die!

Others may decry Toughness in favor of Power Attack and other well-known traps, but if Toughness is going to make you last twice as long in a fight, you're effectively doubling your number of attacks, at no attack penalty at all! That beats the hell out of Power Attack even if it doubled your damage, which it doesn't. The ultimate charger feat, Toughness lets you rush heedlessly into danger, repeatedly. If you're properly roleplaying a fighter with 3 intelligence, 3 charisma and physicals in the 20s, you need Toughness to get through life.

Can't take Toughness as a Fighter feat.

1. Power Attack
2. Combat Expertise
3. Improved Trip
4. Improved Initiative
5. Weapon Focus(Halberd)
6. Weapon Specialization(Halberd)
7. Greater Weapon Focus(Halberd)

I ran out of good feats, so I might as well make it more reliable to Pow for the extra damage to make them fall down faster.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

[ericgrau]

Power attack usually falls behind weapon specialization in pure core (no leap attack, etc.). That AB penalty really hurts. That's also why weapon focus is much higher up than people would think, or at least above improved initiative in most non sneak attack cases. Improved crit also gives more damage than PA by the time you get it; though a friendly caster, etc. can give it to feat starved classes for free. Toughness is in fact very powerful at low levels for the reasons stated, but at high levels the % increase in HP is low and you really need to be running out of feat choices to take it. The amusing thing is that PA is also front-loaded (in core), so at low level or high toughness beats it; assuming you don't already have enough HP to stay in the longest/hardest fights.

Outside of that the core feats tend to be situational, so I can't really rank them. Tripper builds are popular, but they rely somewhat on humanoids. Etc.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Isn't that the thread where most people disagreed with your assessment because you failed to consider how AB scales up faster than AC?

[ericgrau]

Nope. But elsewhere people asked and I already showed that it doesn't about 57 times now, including average monster AC by CR tables for crying out loud. Do I really have to do this again? Hey, this time how about someone else pull out the tables before making such a claim?

EDIT: Here's a copy-paste for your convenience. But I'm not doing any formatting or other work beyond that this time:

Spoiler

Show

 	hp	init	AC	touch	ff_ac	bab	fort	ref	will
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  1/10 (2 detail records)
Avg	1.00	1.50	15.50	15.50	14.00	0.00	2.00	3.50	2.00
Max	1	2	16	16	14	0	2	4	2
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  1/8 (2 detail records)
Avg	1.00	2.00	14.00	14.00	12.00	0.00	2.00	3.00	0.50
Max	1	2	14	14	12	0	2	4	1
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  1/6 (4 detail records)
Avg	4.50	1.75	13.75	13.25	12.00	0.25	2.50	4.00	1.00
Max	11	2	14	14	12	1	4	4	2
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  1/4 (8 detail records)
Avg	3.88	1.75	14.50	13.25	12.75	0.25	2.50	2.88	0.38
Max	11	3	17	15	14	1	4	5	2
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  1/3 (7 detail records)
Avg	4.43	2.57	15.71	13.14	13.71	0.14	2.29	3.14	1.14
Max	6	5	17	15	16	1	4	5	3
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  1/2 (29 detail records)
Avg	6.59	1.41	14.69	11.86	13.38	0.76	2.62	2.00	0.03
Max	16	4	18	16	18	2	5	6	3
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  1 (46 detail records)
Avg	12.24	1.54	15.28	11.78	13.80	1.28	3.00	2.85	0.98
Max	31	7	23	20	18	3	6	6	5
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  2 (51 detail records)
Avg	20.55	2.39	15.76	11.84	13.94	2.33	4.35	4.35	2.69
Max	42	8	23	15	22	5	8	10	6
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  3 (72 detail records)
Avg	27.26	2.68	16.14	11.51	14.64	3.30	4.58	4.18	3.31
Max	55	9	23	18	23	6	9	9	7
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  4 (40 detail records)
Avg	48.23	2.23	16.00	10.45	15.05	5.20	6.45	5.10	4.60
Max	94	6	20	18	20	9	11	9	9
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  5 (51 detail records)
Avg	56.33	3.16	17.16	10.55	15.73	6.08	7.47	5.82	4.82
Max	95	11	25	16	25	11	12	13	10
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  6 (26 detail records)
Avg	69.12	3.27	18.88	11.00	17.27	7.60	8.08	6.85	6.08
Max	133	13	29	29	24	12	14	12	12
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  7 (45 detail records)
Avg	86.98	2.91	18.07	10.38	16.44	8.38	8.67	6.98	6.56
Max	152	13	25	17	24	13	15	19	12
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  8 (31 detail records)
Avg	96.48	3.19	20.00	10.58	18.32	9.43	9.19	7.65	7.45
Max	180	10	27	20	26	15	16	14	11
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  9 (31 detail records)
Avg	130.65	3.61	21.74	10.45	19.68	11.97	12.13	9.81	8.58
Max	230	14	29	18	28	18	19	22	13
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  10 (19 detail records)
Avg	136.53	2.79	22.58	9.26	21.42	13.21	11.63	8.58	9.11
Max	305	8	33	13	33	24	22	19	14
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  11 (24 detail records)
Avg	163.83	3.96	23.71	10.92	21.38	14.25	13.75	10.63	10.3
Max	228	15	29	25	27	24	20	25	14
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  12 (12 detail records)
Avg	196.33	1.58	21.75	7.17	21.42	17.00	15.42	9.33	9.08
Max	300	5	28	13	28	30	25	12	15
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  13 (12 detail records)
Avg	167.00	2.92	27.33	10.25	26.00	14.42	14.17	9.83	12.4
Max	230	5	32	14	31	20	18	14	16
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  14 (12 detail records)
Avg	180.33	4.50	27.00	11.00	25.17	16.17	15.92	11.83	14.0
Max	287	8	35	14	35	23	19	13	18
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  15 (8 detail records)
Avg	224.63	3.50	29.75	8.13	29.50	18.88	15.75	10.63	15.8
Max	312	5	34	11	33	24	19	14	20
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  16 (11 detail records)
Avg	239.09	4.27	31.91	10.00	30.73	21.18	17.09	13.27	16.6
Max	378	8	42	16	42	31	23	16	23
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  17 (7 detail records)
Avg	244.86	3.29	28.00	9.57	26.86	20.14	19.57	11.29	16.2
Max	337	7	34	13	34	27	25	15	19
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  18 (8 detail records)
Avg	302.25	6.00	32.75	8.50	31.25	24.25	19.50	15.63	19.0
Max	375	20	37	14	37	30	23	24	23
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  19 (10 detail records)
Avg	355.80	4.80	36.00	9.20	35.20	27.60	22.10	16.30	19.7
Max	445	12	38	16	38	33	25	20	21
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  20 (9 detail records)
Avg	409.33	6.00	36.44	9.11	34.44	29.56	24.22	18.67	21.2
Max	858	12	40	17	39	48	38	29	23
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  21 (13 detail records)
Avg	393.00	4.31	38.69	8.77	37.31	27.69	23.31	16.15	20.5
Max	522	7	51	17	44	36	28	22	25
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  22 (9 detail records)
Avg	452.33	7.44	40.22	11.56	36.33	29.56	23.00	19.67	23.7
Max	536	22	47	24	47	37	28	25	27
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  23 (11 detail records)
Avg	480.09	8.27	39.91	12.45	35.27	31.00	26.00	21.82	24.6
Max	893	18	46	28	42	38	41	35	28
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  24 (8 detail records)
Avg	622.25	9.25	42.38	12.88	37.75	37.50	29.50	24.25	27.3
Max	900	27	44	40	44	48	39	38	38
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  25 (11 detail records)
Avg	600.27	8.55	44.18	18.36	39.82	34.09	27.55	24.00	28.7
Max	1105	26	52	50	50	40	45	36	41
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  26 (7 detail records)
Avg	420.29	10.43	44.29	27.14	39.57	27.00	21.14	20.14	26.2
Max	680	17	50	48	43	40	32	29	32
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  27 (4 detail records)
Avg	625.25	10.00	46.75	19.25	40.25	43.50	31.75	27.75	32.7
Max	817	20	52	32	45	75	40	37	41
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  28 (4 detail records)
Avg	894.25	16.25	53.50	26.50	43.25	42.50	37.00	37.00	31.5
Max	1102	25	57	47	57	60	45	44	35
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  29 (2 detail records)
Avg	472.00	12.00	50.50	30.00	42.50	21.50	25.00	25.50	24.5
Max	814	17	51	38	48	33	40	39	32
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  30 (4 detail records)
Avg	1064.25	2.00	40.75	13.50	40.25	48.25	36.00	26.25	38.7
Max	1785	6	58	26	58	70	47	37	50
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  31 (2 detail records)
Avg	788.50	3.50	58.00	16.00	56.50	42.50	34.00	24.50	33.5
Max	877	4	64	20	64	45	37	25	38
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  32 (1 detail record)
Avg	433.00	18.00	40.00	20.00	30.00	42.00	19.00	29.00	29.0
Max	433	18	40	20	30	42	19	29	29
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  33 (2 detail records)
Avg	605.50	-2.00	60.00	0.00	60.00	72.00	32.00	30.00	33.0
Max	608	-2	60	0	60	72	32	30	33
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  34 (2 detail records)
Avg	1100.00	9.50	54.00	16.00	50.50	52.50	42.00	32.50	39.5
Max	1362	15	61	19	61	62	48	42	43
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  35 (5 detail records)
Avg	1011.80	12.60	62.00	13.80	53.20	48.40	41.60	34.20	31.0
Max	1075	24	67	18	67	50	46	52	43
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  36 (1 detail record)
Avg	1676.00	11.00	58.00	3.00	57.00	72.00	55.00	47.00	39.0
Max	1676	11	58	3	57	72	55	47	39
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  37 (1 detail record)
Avg	1292.00	4.00	74.00	20.00	74.00	55.00	46.00	29.00	47.0
Max	1292	4	74	20	74	55	46	29	47
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  39 (3 detail records)
Avg	1430.00	7.00	66.67	18.00	62.33	68.00	55.67	37.67	45.0
Max	1728	13	81	22	81	96	75	55	52
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  41 (1 detail record)
Avg	1856.00	14.00	58.00	16.00	44.00	96.00	76.00	56.00	42.0
Max	1856	14	58	16	44	96	76	56	42
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  42 (1 detail record)
Avg	1984.00	12.00	60.00	14.00	48.00	96.00	77.00	54.00	42.0
Max	1984	12	60	14	48	96	77	54	42
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  43 (2 detail records)
Avg	1516.00	4.00	79.50	21.50	79.50	59.00	50.00	31.00	50.5
Max	1787	4	88	24	88	65	55	34	56
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  48 (1 detail record)
Avg	1479.00	4.00	78.00	21.00	78.00	58.00	50.00	31.00	50.0
Max	1479	4	78	21	78	58	50	31	50
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  50 (2 detail records)
Avg	2472.50	7.00	83.50	19.00	78.50	83.00	72.00	44.50	51.5
Max	2880	10	95	26	95	96	84	52	61
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  52 (1 detail record)
Avg	1732.00	4.00	85.00	23.00	85.00	63.00	54.00	33.00	54.0
Max	1732	4	85	23	85	63	54	33	54
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  57 (2 detail records)
Avg	1517.00	7.00	81.00	26.50	81.00	60.00	49.00	33.00	43.0
Max	2006	10	92	28	92	68	59	36	59
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  59 (1 detail record)
Avg	2362.00	4.00	102.00	28.00	102.00	75.00	64.00	39.00	65.0
Max	2362	4	102	28	102	75	64	39	65
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  61 (1 detail record)
Avg	2299.00	4.00	99.00	27.00	99.00	73.00	63.00	38.00	63.0
Max	2299	4	99	27	99	73	63	38	63
	Summary for 'challenge_rating' =  66 (1 detail record)
Avg	2613.00	4.00	106.00	29.00	106.00	78.00	68.00	41.00	68.0
Max	2613	4	106	29	106	78	68	41	68

EDIT #2: Hmm, actually with a couple buffs you might be able to pull it off for single attacks. But not full attacks. And you could only afford a couple -1's.

[Thrawn183]

I'd have to go with Combat Expertise, Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes.

For the most part, these three feats will get you a melee'r that will do the job.

Everything else is icing on the cake that makes things easier for the casters. Blind-fight? Means the casters don't have to help you out as much with invisible opponents. Quick Draw? In dungeons I don't ever have my character put his two handed weapon down. He's got a free hand if he needs it.

Mounted Combat is pretty decent, but it's also situational.

[FMArthur]

Can't take Toughness as a Fighter feat.

I'm starting to think Toughness's author was more of an ***hole than an idiot. That's just mean, really.

[Person_Man]

IMO, the strongest core only melee combo is Mounted Combat, Ride by Attack, Spirited Charge, Leadership, and Power Attack.

Being mounted gives you a high movement rate, and a second target to draw attacks. This is especially useful with Spirited Charge, which let's you use hit and run tactics against the enemy.

Leadership gives you a highly useful mount, or Bard or Cleric cohort to use as a buff bot.

A lance used two handed with Spirited Charge and Power Attack deals the highest damage available in core. Though with the too-hit penalty and no Shock Trooper, you'll want to pick up a Brilliant Energy weapon and/or get a hold of plenty of buffs from your friends.

[Thorin]

I guess you should rate best the feats you are going to use more often first and the situational ones as not-so-much

Weapon Prof
Weapon focus
Greater weapon focus
Weapon Specializacion
Power attack

Would be the top (hit often and hit hard, and hitting SHOULD be your priority)


If you have great dex, but not so-great str:

-In most cases, the +4 to init from improved init is not great... unless you have an already good dex modifier; but you roll init once poer combat, so I would skip it anyhow

-Combat reflexes would be great if you are using a spiked chain or a good reach weapon

-Weapon Finesse if you are going to pump dex anyway


Improved critical is useful if you go for the TWF tree and/or if your weapon has a high crit range, otherwise I would skip it.

[deuxhero]

I'd say
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Combat Reflexes
Exotic Weapon Proficiency:Spiked Chain
Power Attack

The rest depends on other things.

[Thajocoth]

It seems like Whirlwind Attack & Cleave aren't incredibly popular. Why is that? I figured more options = good.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

It seems like Whirlwind Attack & Cleave aren't incredibly popular. Why is that? I figured more options = good.

Cleave is ok.

Whirlwind requires you to take a lot of poor prerequisites, and be surrounded by enemies. This is a bad thing.

[quick_comment]

It seems like Whirlwind Attack & Cleave aren't incredibly popular. Why is that? I figured more options = good.

Cleave doesnt trigger very often. It only triggers when you kill an enemy (and how many enemies do you usually fight at once) and are adj to another enemy.

Its useful only against hoardes of mooks, which really arent a problem anyway. Getting cleave is spending a feat to deal with someone that isnt a problem.

[casper]

If most expected enemies are subjects to critical hits, I'll probably make barbarian 2/fighter 8 (both count as martial characters, I guess :-) And probably choose orc as race. So we have total of 10 feats, 6 of which are fighter bonus feats. If I need to name 7:

1. Power attack
2. Weapon focus (falichion)
3. Cleave
4. Great cleave
5. Weapon specialisation (falchion)
6. Improved Critical (falchion)
7. Greater weapon focus (falchion)

Isn't too original, I understand. But sometimes works :-)

[Sinfire Titan]

It seems like Whirlwind Attack & Cleave aren't incredibly popular. Why is that? I figured more options = good.

As Pharaoh said. Whirlwind Attack has 3 feats are requirements, only one of which can be used while performing Whirlwind Attack.

Cleave sucks because it's effect triggers 1/encounter, tops. You wasted a feat to get a single free attack when the same cost (a single feat) gets you additional attacks/round equal to your Dex+1. Cleave was redeemed by CW thanks to Combat Brute, but this is Core melee feats only, so that doesn't matter.

[quick_comment]

Cleave+great cleave should be one feat.

Weapon Focus + Greater Weapon Focus should be one (tiered) feat, with greater weapon focus kicking it at level 8ish I think. Same for weapon spec and greater weapon spec.

Dodge+mobility should be one feat.

Improved Disarm, Feint and Trip should be one feat.

Improved bullrush, overrun and sunder should be one feat.

Having weapon focus and weapon spec in a weapon should grant improved critical for free.

[Saph]

Cleave sucks because it's effect triggers 1/encounter, tops. You wasted a feat to get a single free attack when the same cost (a single feat) gets you additional attacks/round equal to your Dex+1.

Bear in mind that you can take Combat Reflexes AND Cleave, and in fact the two work together pretty well (more reach makes it easier to have multiple enemies in range to hit). Actions are the currency of D&D combat, so Cleave is a fairly good feat simply because it gives you more actions. If you're playing a killy-type, you should be dropping an enemy fairly often. At low levels (1-5) when groups of goblins, kobolds, and orcs are the norm, being able to Cleave is almost as good as having an extra standard action each round.

[9mm]

Bear in mind that you can take Combat Reflexes AND Cleave, and in fact the two work together pretty well (more reach makes it easier to have multiple enemies in range to hit). Actions are the currency of D&D combat, so Cleave is a fairly good feat simply because it gives you more actions. If you're playing a killy-type, you should be dropping an enemy fairly often. At low levels (1-5) when groups of goblins, kobolds, and orcs are the norm, being able to Cleave is almost as good as having an extra standard action each round.

*snaps back to his first ever D&D champain*

CLEAVE-A-THON!

*clears room of Drow*

[Eldariel]

How I'd rate them:

1. Improved Trip
2. Power Attack
3. Combat Reflexes
4. Combat Expertise (yeah, it's a prerequisite but meh)
5. Cleave
6. EWP: Spiked Chain
7. Improved Initiative

There, 7 feats spent without taking anything crappy! Though Mounted Combat-feats aren't bad; Spirited Charge is by far the best damage dealer in Core. It's just that they're hard to make work. Also, Spirited Charge costs you 3 feats. Though Trample and Ride-By Attack are both pretty useful; it's really Spirited Charge that actually deals DAMAGE in Core.

After that, you end up with Quick Draw, Weapon Focus-line, Dodge, Improved Disarm, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Grapple, Improved Critical, TWF, Rapid Shot (this is by far the best archery feat in Core, but alone not enough to make it anything but horrible), etc.


As for Whirlwind Attack, the second problem with it is that you typically need to be adjacent to 4+ opponents at the start of your turn to make it better than just plain full attack. That's just not happening.

[theMycon]

*snaps back to his first ever D&D champain*

CLEAVE-A-THON!

*clears room of Drow*

I remember once, in an early game with a "theoretical optimizer"...
Me: "What do you mean, you didn't take fireball?"
Wiz: "I barred evocation! It's worthless! You do the hurting and stand between us!"
Me: "There's a dozen frickin' Ant-monsters, clumped together, right there, ready to shoot past me and kill you."
Wiz: "But... but I didn't expect to run into archers! Kill them fast! You hit on a three!"
Me: "How the heck to I kill a dozen guys at... Oh, sweet."
Me: *jumps over their heads, into the middle of the swarm of enemies.* *power attacks as he lands* One down... *great cleave* 8 more down...
Me: "Well, poot. I'm all out of targets."
3 surviving ant-monsters: "Uhh... ignore the last two hours of us swarming at you. We can't see lawful characters anymore."

[Pharaoh's Fist]

What's the point?

If they were that easily killed, how much of a threat were they really?

And was Fireball the only spell that would have been useful in that situation? What did the wizard prepare so that nothing he had could be used?