Players as Prey

[Magugag]

I'm currently making a campaign setting with the general idea of survival horror in mind. The basic idea is that a number of strange dead 'gods' have fallen to the world in massive black obelisks. With them, they bring the first undead and rapidly begin to saturate the world with negative energy in an attempt to reshape it in their own image.

The reason I tell you this is to give you an idea of the feeling I'm trying to go for. In this setting, the undead will, in the early campaign, seize most of the world as their own. The civilized races of the world are in the minority, on the brink of extinction, and I want it to feel exactly like that. And this presents a problem to me.

I've sent my PCs through several test runs, and I can't seem to tweak adventures so that the PCs are sufficiently threatened for the entire go- at least not without killing them. I'm shooting for a horror feeling. I want the PCs to feel like they're in enemy territory, I don't want them to be able to hack down every foe that comes at them, I want a real and present sense of danger and edge. But this seems to come at the cost of enjoyment; I don't want them to be so severely outmatched that they lose a sense of fun and teeter off the brink into frustration. This isn't about Challenge Rating; I know how to make encounters the challenge my players appropriately. It's about danger. I want there to be a possibility of them being eviscerated if they make a wrong step, but I don't want it to be an inescapable conclusion if they don't play things exactly as I envision them.

Can anyone give me some tips and pointers on making a terrifying, tense and dangerous setting without losing fun?

Oh, and yes, my players are very much interested in playing in a horror campaign! I was certain to ask them ahead of time.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Why does this sound familiar somehow?

[Magugag]

Why does this sound familiar somehow?

Probably because I sincerely doubt that survival horror is a very original idea in a campaign. I'm interested in crafting such a setting nonetheless.

[Thatguyoverther]

If the players are in enemy territory they should know it. Simple don't give them any chance to stock up or resupply. Even try making food and water hard to come by. Keep throwing fights at them, constantly. Make it hard to find time to sleep let alone replenish spells. You don't have to RP every lone zombie that stumbles into camp, but start giving them penalties to represent inability to rest or sleep.

Use numbers. You don't have to overpower them in every encounter, just let them know that their surrounded, no help is on the way, and the enemy has an unending supply of reinforcements. It also lets you customize the battles difficulty. You can start them out easy and just poor in more and more enemies until it looks dangerous enough.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Pick any system other than D&D. D&D is terrible for representing horror, especially survival horror. Look at AFMBE, IIRC there's a fantasy supplement.

If you must do D&D, I recommend picking up Dark Sun. Should at least give you an idea of what's needed to make D&D slightly less about Epic Heroes.

[Xefas]

If you have only a few kinds of significantly reoccurring enemies, of varying difficulty and distinctive appearance, then your players will be able to more easily understand what kind of threat they're facing.

For instance, if you have a CR 1 Blue Zombie, CR 3 Red Zombie, CR 5 Yellow Zombie, and CR 7 Green Zombie, and you have four level 4 players, then they will know automatically that a small group of Blues are going to be pretty damn easy, but even a large group of Reds is going to be challenging, whereas 1-2 Greens are going to wipe the floor with them.

The problem I see trying to instill 'danger' in encounters is that players never know that they should run. They can't look at a bugbear and know whether you designed him to be too tough for them to face.

If they know there's an encounter coming their way that's WAY too difficult, they'll know their characters should be scared, and can act accordingly. And, perhaps, in time, if they're invested in the lives of their characters, they may actually feel a twinge of fear when the BBEG's base is FILLED with green zombies.

[Magugag]

If you have only a few kinds of significantly reoccurring enemies, of varying difficulty and distinctive appearance, then your players will be able to more easily understand what kind of threat they're facing.

For instance, if you have a CR 1 Blue Zombie, CR 3 Red Zombie, CR 5 Yellow Zombie, and CR 7 Green Zombie, and you have four level 4 players, then they will know automatically that a small group of Blues are going to be pretty damn easy, but even a large group of Reds is going to be challenging, whereas 1-2 Greens are going to wipe the floor with them.

The problem I see trying to instill 'danger' in encounters is that players never know that they should run. They can't look at a bugbear and know whether you designed him to be too tough for them to face.

If they know there's an encounter coming their way that's WAY too difficult, they'll know their characters should be scared, and can act accordingly. And, perhaps, in time, if they're invested in the lives of their characters, they may actually feel a twinge of fear when the BBEG's base is FILLED with green zombies.

That seems like sound advice. So far, to instill a feeling of danger, I've tried to emphasize how powerful an enemy is through description. Things that are tough tend to look tough, even if I'm just taking my own creative license to emphasize that fact. For instance, big tends to be bad. That flaming giant dire Tyrannosaurus corpse patrolling the massive halls of the badguy's fortress is probably too tough. But, without such obvious distinctions as your color scheme example, players have trouble telling whether they're seeing an enemy that will slaughter them, or a boss fight crafted to feel epic.

In any case, thank you, you pretty much saw straight to the heart of one of my main problems.

[Godskook]

Figure out ways of utilizing what I see as the key components of the zombie-apocalypse archetype: assimilation, attrition and inevitability. For instance, the Borg from Star Trek utilize assimilation and inevitability, and the Agents from the Matrix utilize inevitability.

Assimilation takes the form of PCs and NPCs that die and turn over, or get brain-washed a lot. Probably a poor idea, as something to use directly on the players as it requires PC death.

Attrition means that low-CR* foes should be incredibly common, and should require proactive effort on the part of the PCs to avoid. Safe houses should require effort to conceal. Think of "I Am Legend", Will Smith was fine for years, but one day without pouring cleaner on the front steps, and the zombies follow him home. Or think OotS. Haley could've easily pwned any 20 hobgoblins in a 20v1 fight, but trying to do so brought the attention of higher level threats and nearly got her killed when she tried.

Inevitability means that there's immeasurable foes(zombies, borg), regenerating foes(borg, agents from Matrix) or are immaterial to the bigger picture(hobgoblins from OotS).

*By low-CR, I mean things that have no special abilities, only hit ~5-20% of the time, and are easily dispatched individually, but become a headache as they attract bigger threats.

One threat would be a sniper. It is hard to engage a foe at 600ft, especially with his henchmen in the way.

Another threat would be a regenerating enemy of some sort, like a low-level Lich or maybe a troll. Instead of building and treating him as a BBEG, treat him as a henchman. Make sure the PCs need to fight him all the time, but lack the resources to completely kill him.

[Magugag]

Figure out ways of utilizing what I see as the key components of the zombie-apocalypse archetype: assimilation, attrition and inevitability. For instance, the Borg from Star Trek utilize assimilation and inevitability, and the Agents from the Matrix utilize inevitability.

Assimilation takes the form of PCs and NPCs that die and turn over, or get brain-washed a lot. Probably a poor idea, as something to use directly on the players as it requires PC death.

Attrition means that low-CR* foes should be incredibly common, and should require proactive effort on the part of the PCs to avoid. Safe houses should require effort to conceal. Think of "I Am Legend", Will Smith was fine for years, but one day without pouring cleaner on the front steps, and the zombies follow him home. Or think OotS. Haley could've easily pwned any 20 hobgoblins in a 20v1 fight, but trying to do so brought the attention of higher level threats and nearly got her killed when she tried.

Inevitability means that there's immeasurable foes(zombies, borg), regenerating foes(borg, agents from Matrix) or are immaterial to the bigger picture(hobgoblins from OotS).

*By low-CR, I mean things that have no special abilities, only hit ~5-20% of the time, and are easily dispatched individually, but become a headache as they attract bigger threats.

One threat would be a sniper. It is hard to engage a foe at 600ft, especially with his henchmen in the way.

Another threat would be a regenerating enemy of some sort, like a low-level Lich or maybe a troll. Instead of building and treating him as a BBEG, treat him as a henchman. Make sure the PCs need to fight him all the time, but lack the resources to completely kill him.

Just wanted to say I love this, especially the regenerating part, since it provides a foe that the PCs can handle (a few times) yet cannot truly kill. Very insightful, thank you!

[valadil]

Players have been trained to know that they can best any challenge. Running away isn't part of D&D. I made players run in one game. I told them there were combat encounters and escape encounters. These were two different things. The victory condition for escape was survival. I also explained that the elite spell guard they'd be escaping from were gestalt characters 2-6 levels higher than the PCs. Once they grasped that, they were willing to run in horror when needed.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Probably because I sincerely doubt that survival horror is a very original idea in a campaign. I'm interested in crafting such a setting nonetheless.

No that's not what I meant. Undead who have big obelisks and wish to mold worlds in their image?

[Godskook]

Just wanted to say I love this, especially the regenerating part, since it provides a foe that the PCs can handle (a few times) yet cannot truly kill. Very insightful, thank you!

Glad you like it.

[Kylarra]

No that's not what I meant. Undead who have big obelisks and wish to mold worlds in their image?
http://www.deviantart.com/download/9...Flashlight.jpg

Bah, fear this!

Spoiler

Show

[Magugag]

No that's not what I meant. Undead who have big obelisks and wish to mold worlds in their image?

NECRONS!

NOW I see what you mean. This campaign setting wasn't made with Necrons in mind, but now that you mention it, I wouldn't be surprised if that's subconsciously what I was drawing from. The bad guys even come from 'space' as it's defined in my setting, and at their head are dark deceased 'gods'. Hm.

Weapons that flay people alive... Now there's an idea... Hehe, I'll try not to be THAT derivative.

EDIT: Also, that's beautiful Kylarra.

[dspeyer]

Normal DND campaigns depend on a certain amount of downtime -- going to town to shop and gather information and such. Denying this could be effective, but subverting it could be more so. Let them be attacked *while* hiring a mage to enchant their armor (they then have to fight in plain clothes). They go back to the inn they reserved a room at and find the innkeeper is now a vampire.

Another thing that might help is to tell them to bring several characters, then each time a character dies it comes back later as undead. Not only does this get them used to being mortal, but it gives a sense of losing ground.

[horseboy]

Pick any system other than D&D. D&D is terrible for representing horror, especially survival horror. Look at AFMBE, IIRC there's a fantasy supplement.

If you must do D&D, I recommend picking up Dark Sun. Should at least give you an idea of what's needed to make D&D slightly less about Epic Heroes.

+1 this. However, There's also this retro game, called "Torg". In it Earth has giant obelisks fall down from the sky and twist reality. Basically, Earth is invaded by various genres. Australia was invaded by survival horror. There were several really good genre rules for use in there, and sounds like it would keep you from having to reinvent the wheel there, just apply it to a whole world instead.

[kwanzaabot]

One word: Medium-sized, Zombie Tarrasques.
Or Troll Zombies (maybe reflavour them so the players think they're just regular human zombies, too).

Nothing like a horde of zombies that just won't die!

I also like dspeyer's idea of players coming back as undead. Especially when the players grow attached to their characters- or when the characters grow attached to each other.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

If the players are in enemy territory they should know it. Simple don't give them any chance to stock up or resupply. Even try making food and water hard to come by. Keep throwing fights at them, constantly. Make it hard to find time to sleep let alone replenish spells. You don't have to RP every lone zombie that stumbles into camp, but start giving them penalties to represent inability to rest or sleep.

Use numbers. You don't have to overpower them in every encounter, just let them know that their surrounded, no help is on the way, and the enemy has an unending supply of reinforcements. It also lets you customize the battles difficulty. You can start them out easy and just poor in more and more enemies until it looks dangerous enough.

+1
Selective World's Largest Dungeon rules allow this. See here.

[icefractal]

But, without such obvious distinctions as your color scheme example, players have trouble telling whether they're seeing an enemy that will slaughter them, or a boss fight crafted to feel epic.

One way to establish this is to early on, have them fight one 'big' zombie, which is a tough but survivable fight. Then when they see a dozen milling around somewhere, they'll know that's way beyond their capabilities. And if a flaming dragon zombie kills one accidentally by swinging it's tail, they'll know that's not something they want to go near.

[SmartAlec]

If you haven't already, I recommend getting yourself a copy of The Zombie Survival Guide, by Max Brooks! And possibly his follow-up, World War Z. Both books present an analysis of the realities of surviving in a world overrun by zombies, and there'll likely be a lot of ideas you can draw from it.

[Emy]

Using (some) of the Ravenloft rules might also help. For example, the one about not being able to planeshift out. If the Big Undead Godhorde (BUG) is taking over this plane, make sure they can't run to another one. I also seem to remember some rules about evil spells being enhanced a bit, light spells fizzling more than usual, stuff like that. You could phase this stuff in gradually as the world becomes more saturated with negative energy.

Also pass the players notes. Pass a ton of notes. Pass innocent notes, freaky notes, and odd notes. Pass notes that ask players to keep secrets from each other. Pass notes that describe their surroundings a bit inconsistently.

[Roc Ness]

Horror story eh? Boy have I got some pointers for you.

Create a symbol of innocence in your drowning world. For example, have a young, half-elf bard who is unendingly optimistic and knows such innocent spells (such as elation) tag along. Make him/her likable. In the very first encounter with your new friend (after you get to know him/her) have them die in an utterly unexpected and unpreventable way. Go into detail.

Eg. There is another rustle from behind. Shadows dance across the ground, creating a grosteque mirror of the world in the lantern light as another five undead burst from behind with surprising speed and lunge for the little one. Before the smile even falters from his/her face, they grasp each of his/her limbs and tear him/her apart. As you watch his/her joints are sundered; deep crimson blood splatters the ground.

His/her head drops, eyes glassy, empty. The dead turn to face you.

I could give more, but I think this has bored you guys out of your minds. The point is, the CR or the challenge it represents to the dice isn't important. You have to insert the players forcefully into their character's shoes, and make them imagine.

[kme]

Constantly threaten them with long lasting conditions: Poison, Disease, Fatigue, Exhaustion, Negative Levels, Curses etc. Every monster they fight should inflict something. And you can also enforce some moral or similar checks as much as possible (like against being shaken, sickened, confused, or make up some)

When they are under effect of some of these they may suddenly feel much more vulnerable, and lowly ghouls seem much more scary .

[Jair Barik]

There is a book called Shade's children in which the main characters have to run from mutant creatures that come in a number of types. One of the types is much less dangerous but are almost always a scout for the largest type, if I remember correctly the small ones scream if they find prey and each type always move in groups of the same numbers.

if the different enemy types have specific relationships not imediatley obvious you can build some good horror. After killing a few groups of little creatures and being forced to run from the big thing that inevitably crops up after it they wil soon learn to fear even the lowliest of monsters. If they find out your stealthy monsters always move in packs of 5 they will be scared when they find tha one time they have only killed 4.

[endoperez]

+1 this. However, There's also this retro game, called "Torg". In it Earth has giant obelisks fall down from the sky and twist reality. Basically, Earth is invaded by various genres. Australia was invaded by survival horror. There were several really good genre rules for use in there, and sounds like it would keep you from having to reinvent the wheel there, just apply it to a whole world instead.

Ooh, I have the rulebook for that! Not here, though.

One of the ideas I remember from it was the way the areas under influence worked differently. Magic didn't work in the real world, only in fantasy and horror and the jungle/primal areas, and scifi tech didn't work in the horror or magic worlds, and even low-level tech stopped working in the primal world.



Any way, some thoughts.

There should be something the players CAN do. If the whole game is about avoiding fights, the players probably won't have fun, or even if they do you'd do it easier in a different system. D&D is very much about fights and/or dealing damage, so the players should be able to deduce when they can do that.

The players should be able to get away when things go wrong. Avoid open fields. Have chokepoints and hiding places in most places the players will be in.


If you allow Protection From Evil spells to affect the undead, and allow the Circle version to be cast as a line on the ground, the players can use chokepoints to stop the undead and make their escape. The line would only stop undead from one direction, and intelligent undead would be able to break the line from the other side, so it'd be only a temporary solution. Also, the material component would be one more resource the players could run out of.

You could allow a custom feat that lets Turn Undead work more like Scan Undead. It will let the players know when they meet an enemy too tough for them.

Consider using Unhallow, and boosting the effects. In it's the unhallow effect that makes the undead powerful, it lets the players to wipe the floor with previously-dangerous enemies when they do manage to destroy the source of the effect. I suggest ominous glass or crystal orbs, because they're much easier to break than obsidian obelisks. Also, imagine all the interesting things you could do with a spell that affects everyone inside with a spesific effect... This could be a great way to limit their resources and make them careful. Stopping the channeling of all positive energy (no healing/turn undead/smite; potions work), or giving all the undead energy resistance 10, or breaking all invisibility spells... The players should know when they enter an affected area, but not knowing how this one will nerf them should make them paranoid.

Reward the players for being cautious and for not fighting. Give some exp for enemies they avoided, for enemies they dropped to sea, for bridges they burned to stop the enemies from using them, etc. If you go with the unhallow-emanating-orbs from above, consider making them a reward, whether experience (demonic souls) or bathing them in positive energy (healing their wounds and giving them various moral bonuses). Just make sure they can't carry the orbs around and "spend" them for instant healing or anything similar.

[vicente408]

Australia was invaded by survival horror.

Isn't Australia already pretty well suited for survival horror as-is?

[Yora]

Australia is somewhat becoming an internet meme on it's own right.

[Myrmex]

Keep everyone low level. Have them start at one, then for every level they would get past level 6, just give them a bonus feat.

Also use armor as damage reduction.

[JonestheSpy]

Players have been trained to know that they can best any challenge. Running away isn't part of D&D. I made players run in one game. I told them there were combat encounters and escape encounters. These were two different things. The victory condition for escape was survival. I also explained that the elite spell guard they'd be escaping from were gestalt characters 2-6 levels higher than the PCs. Once they grasped that, they were willing to run in horror when needed.

Yeah, something like this. Maybe not spelling it out so clearly, but when the slow-moving zombie horde is heading their way, the players should realize that running or dying are they're only options.

[Magugag]

Wow. I really wasn't expecting this much feedback, but it's proving absolutely invaluable. I especially liked the idea of the happy likable additional character that exists specifically to be eaten once the characters start to like him! I'll actually be sending my players through another test encounter here, tomorrow, and I'm sure that the tweaking is going to go over wonderfully.