Arcane Hierophant help

[Andry]

Hey guys,

Seeing as my Duskblade just met his end on the poisoned blade of an assassin. I was looking into making an Arcane Hierophant. What I would like help with is some decent feats (natural spell has been banned)and what to pick as a familiar companion (fleshraker has been banned by my dm). Any advide on equipment would helpful also.

The race of the character will be a halfling and the level I will be starting at is 10th. For the starting build i was thinking of going Wizard 3/Druid 4/ Arcane Hierophant 3

Thanks in advance for any help given

[Douglas]

Your proposed level split does not satisfy Arcane Hierophant's BAB prerequisite. You need one more level of either Wizard or Druid.

Natural Bond would boost your companion a bit.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Regardless of the pet you pick...

Don't for get the feat from C. Adventurer that gives +3 animal companion i think its called natural bond.


Also if you can find a way to do it
Hexblade/ druid might be better.

[Keld Denar]

Its worth noting that AH doesn't grant Wildshape, it mearly advances it if you have it. Thus, you need at least 5 levels of Druid if you plan on having it. This isn't so bad if you use an early entry method on the Wizard side like Sanctum Spell or such. Then you could get in as a Druid5/Wizard2/AH3, I'm pretty sure.

[Ernir]

Then you could get in as a Druid5/Wizard2/AH3, I'm pretty sure.

That works.

With fractional BAB in use, Wizard 1/Druid 5/AH 4 works too. (With an early entry trick. For theurge-types, I like Precocious Apprentice. Its legality is unquestionable.) Ends up with 5th level Wizard casting, 9th level Druid casting and 9th level Wildshape abilities.

If you do not care about Wild Shape at all (and with no Natural Spell, I am not sure I would care), Wizard 1/Druid 3/Mystic Theurge 3/AH 3 works better. Again, with fractional BAB. Gives you 7th level Wizard casting and 9th level Druid casting. And you can end up with two different sets of 9th level spells.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Its worth noting that AH doesn't grant Wildshape, it mearly advances it if you have it. Thus, you need at least 5 levels of Druid if you plan on having it.

I vaguely recall there being a minor debate about that, due to how the wording goes. Some say that Druid3/Wizard X/Arcane Heirophant 2 nets you Wildshape, others go with the interpretation you stated. Either way, I'd ask the DM about it.

For the build itself, I'd go Wizard 3/Druid 3/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Heirophant 10/ Mystic Theurge +2. Grab yourself some sort of bear, Natural Bond feat, and pick a focus on either buffing, debuffing, or battlefield control. Quicken spell might also prove useful, if you can either apply Easy Metamagic and/or Practical Metamagic to it somehow.

EDIT: Going with an early entry trick sounds like a good idea. I'm personally a fan of Sanctum Spell over Precious Apprentice, due to potential use later on, after qualification.

[sofawall]

That works.

With fractional BAB in use, Wizard 1/Druid 5/AH 4 works too. (With an early entry trick. For theurge-types, I like Precocious Apprentice. Its legality is unquestionable.) Ends up with 5th level Wizard casting, 9th level Druid casting and 9th level Wildshape abilities.

If you do not care about Wild Shape at all (and with no Natural Spell, I am not sure I would care), Wizard 1/Druid 3/Mystic Theurge 3/AH 3 works better. Again, with fractional BAB. Gives you 7th level Wizard casting and 9th level Druid casting. And you can end up with two different sets of 9th level spells.

I seriously hope you are sarcastic and/or joking. If you are seriously saying that, you must not have been around long. I've been on Char Op boards for less than a year and I've seen that come up many, many times.

The side against it says as soon as you get 2nd level spells from any source, you lose the slot for wizard. Thus, you cannot have both 2nd level divine and 2nd level arcane from Precocious Apprentice. This is the against side, from what I understand.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I seriously hope you are sarcastic and/or joking. If you are seriously saying that, you must not have been around long. I've been on Char Op boards for less than a year and I've seen that come up many, many times.

The side against it says as soon as you get 2nd level spells from any source, you lose the slot for wizard. Thus, you cannot have both 2nd level divine and 2nd level arcane from Precocious Apprentice. This is the against side, from what I understand.

The loophole around that is Focused Specialist.

[sofawall]

The loophole around that is Focused Specialist.

Whu-guh... Huh?

Why have I not heard this trick before? I love it!

[woodenbandman]

Fast Wildshape (Complete Divine), and Swift Wildshape (Complete Champion). Since Natural Spell is banned, these will have to do. This will allow you to swift switch back to human, cast a spell as a standard action, and move action swap back. Or you could just cast at the start of a battle then switch to animal form. Also note that a still, silent spell with no material component can be cast freely while in wildshape.

Animal Companions: A Dire Eagle is nice. Tigers and Bears are pretty sweet. At high levels, I like a Roc, but they might be a bit too big for most dungeons. (Don't forget the spell Familiar Pocket, though. Store that Roc in your pocket).

[Keld Denar]

Oh yea, forgot about Focused Specialist.

PA gives you a single spell slot you can only use on one spell. FS removes that spell slot and replaces it with 2 extra spell slots that can only be used for your specialist school.

Since the slot given to you by PA nolonger exists, you can't lose it when you gain 2nd level drood spells.

At least thats the gist of it. I'm sure there are a few more arguements, but thems the skinny.

[Jalor]

If you don't want to be a Focused Specialist, you could use Earth Spell. It gets you effective 2nd level spells from a single level of any full caster. If you don't care about Wildshape as much as you care about dual spell progression, Wizard 1/Druid 3/Mystic Theurge 4/Arcane Hierophant 2 gets you 7th level Wizard casting and 9th level Druid casting. If you're using fractional BAB, you can drop a level of Theurge for Hierophant. Unfortunately, the requirements of AH prevent one from using Earth Spell to take the dual-progression PrC at level 3.

Without Natural Spell, I wouldn't even consider taking Druid 5 and getting Wildshape; it turns Batman (Captain Planet?) into a Big Stupid Fighter. You have an animal companion familiar to do that. Then again, I'm rereading the entry and it implies that a Druid 3 entry does gain Wildshape.

Be sure to take Natural Bond; it's like Practiced Spellcaster for Dire Bears. Practiced Bearcaster.

Damn, now I want to play one of these.

[sofawall]

For what it's worth (I suspect not much) both the FAQ and Cust Serve have ruled that you do gain it.

Right after ruling that you don't...

[Melamoto]

Sanctum Spell trick does not let you get early qualification for anything, or let you prepare spells in lower level slots.

SANCTUM SPELL [METAMAGIC]
Your spells are especially potent on home ground.
Prerequisite: Any metamagic feat.
Benefit: A sanctum spell has an effective spell level 1
higher than its normal level if cast in your sanctum (see
below), but if not cast in the sanctum, the spell has an effective
spell level 1 lower than normal. All effects dependent
on spell level (including save DCs) are calculated according
to the adjusted level.
A sanctum spell uses a spell slot of the spell’s normal level.

[Keld Denar]

Yea...so...you memorize a Sanctum Fireball. You have an 18 Int. If you cast it while you are in your "sanctum", its cast as a 4nd level spell with a DC of 18, and can overcome a Lesser Globe of Invulnerability. It is a 4th level spell in ALL respects except for the fact that it comes from a 3rd level slot. If you cast it outside your sanctum, its a 2nd level spell with a DC of 16 and will not overcome a Lesser Globe of Invulnerability. As long as you have a sanctum somewhere, you have the potential to cast 2nd level spells. Its that simple.

To say otherwise would be like ruling that a wizard who casts all of his 2nd level spells in a day loses access to any PrCs that require 2nd level spellcasting. Just cause he can't cast a 2nd level spell at that exact moment, doesn't mean he doesn't have the ability.

[Melamoto]

That's one way of interpreting it. The other way is that you're casting a 1st level spell that counts as a 2nd level spell for the purposes of spell dependent effects.

And when things come down to interpretation, there are all sorts of rules that can be messed around with. And to cover up these flaws, there's a little something called "DM Rulings".

[Keld Denar]

You said it yourself. It counts as a 2nd level spell. You are, for all intents and purposes, casting a 2nd level spell. What does the prereq ask for? The ability to cast 2nd level spells. Not cast spells from 2nd level slots...cast 2nd level spells.

Seems pretty black and white to me...

[Ozymandias9]

You said it yourself. It counts as a 2nd level spell. You are, for all intents and purposes, casting a 2nd level spell. What does the prereq ask for? The ability to cast 2nd level spells. Not cast spells from 2nd level slots...cast 2nd level spells.

Seems pretty black and white to me...

I've seen some argument that it asks for spells plural, which is stupid.

A more refined argument based on the actual mechanics of PA was presented by the author in a WotC FAQ, stating that PA spell slot does not function like a normal spell slot until you would normally have spells of that level (Wizards cannot learn other spells of that level for use in the slot and casting the spell includes a failure chance)-- thus (in the author's opinion) it does not meet the requisite competency implied by "ability to cast 2nd level spells." It's a logical answer, with fluff based on crunch. The short of it? Ask your DM, as this is an example of an actual author of a feat saying no.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I've seen some argument that it asks for spells plural, which is stupid.

A more refined argument based on the actual mechanics of PA was presented by the author in a WotC FAQ, stating that PA spell slot does not function like a normal spell slot until you would normally have spells of that level (Wizards cannot learn other spells of that level for use in the slot and casting the spell includes a failure chance)-- thus (in the author's opinion) it does not meet the requisite competency implied by "ability to cast 2nd level spells." It's a logical answer, with fluff based on crunch. The short of it? Ask your DM, as this is an example of an actual author of a feat saying no.

Interestingly enough, FS gets around those restrictions as well.

[DireFrostWolf]

Its worth noting that AH doesn't grant Wildshape, it mearly advances it if you have it. Thus, you need at least 5 levels of Druid if you plan on having it. This isn't so bad if you use an early entry method on the Wizard side like Sanctum Spell or such. Then you could get in as a Druid5/Wizard2/AH3, I'm pretty sure.

idon't know why they say it doesn't grant wildshape the text says it does but only to a druid because the levels of Ah counts as druid levels for wildshape so for example a druid 4/wizard 3/ AH 1 would have the wildshape of a level 5 druid because that's when a druid gains wildshape so a druid3/wizard4/AH1 wouldn't then have wildshape because it would only be as a druid of 4th lvel and druids get wildshape at level 5!!!! So i don't see why it's said that wildshape is not granted when the text shows it does very clearly.

[DireFrostWolf]

question!!! Could a druid4/suel arcanamach2 qualify for AH? if not how could i make it work? any ideas?

[Navigator]

My personal favorite build for this type of character is Wizard 3/Druid 3/Beastmaster 1/Arcane Hierophant 10/X 3. This does assume, unfortunately, that your DM uses fractional base attack bonus.

This nets you your Druid level + 3 for purposes related to animal companion if you take Natural Bond. Think of it as optimizing your animal companion. Put a few magic items on him, take Companion Spellbound, and buff away.

If you really, really want to be a super caster, just be a Focused Specialist Conjurer and save yourself a 2 hour argument with your DM over Precocious Apprentice.

[Ozymandias9]

Interestingly enough, FS gets around those restrictions as well.

There are a few others: I think there's one in Races of the Dragon. PA is just the least restrictive: one feat cost, no other downside. It also has the peculiar state of being the most contentious. If there is another option in the supported sources for your table, you might consider using it just to avoid a really nit-picky rules debate.

question!!! Could a druid4/suel arcanamach2 qualify for AH? if not how could i make it work? any ideas?

Skills might be a little tight, but it seems to meet the casting and BAB prerecs.

[Stephen_E]

Its worth noting that AH doesn't grant Wildshape, it mearly advances it if you have it. Thus, you need at least 5 levels of Druid if you plan on having it. This isn't so bad if you use an early entry method on the Wizard side like Sanctum Spell or such. Then you could get in as a Druid5/Wizard2/AH3, I'm pretty sure.

You're mistaken about Arcane Heirophant not giving Wildshape. If neither of the classes who's casting give wildshape in their advancement their Arcane Heriophant won't give it to you. In otherwords if you enter as a cleric and advance your cleric casting don't expect Wildshape. The writeup specifically covers this point.

Stephen E

[Stephen_E]

Re: Quick entry into Arcane Heriophant.
As mentioned there are several methods but they all jave someone who says they're illegitimate.

Check with your GM and don't bother making a big fuss if he says no.

Been an Animal Companion freal I love the Wiz 3/Druid 3/BEatmaser 1 build.

Another Animal Companion to look at is Dire Wolf. They get a 2nd attack with Multi Attack, give them Chill Touch which means they can weaken an opponent before tripping, and because they gain higher Int scores + with a Headband of intellect, they gain access to Combat Expertise and Improved Trip.

Stephen E

[PhoenixRivers]

Re: Quick entry into Arcane Heriophant.
As mentioned there are several methods but they all jave someone who says they're illegitimate.

Check with your GM and don't bother making a big fuss if he says no.

Been an Animal Companion freal I love the Wiz 3/Druid 3/BEatmaser 1 build.

Another Animal Companion to look at is Dire Wolf. They get a 2nd attack with Multi Attack, give them Chill Touch which means they can weaken an opponent before tripping, and because they gain higher Int scores + with a Headband of intellect, they gain access to Combat Expertise and Improved Trip.

Stephen E

Good feats for this build include Practiced Spellcaster (twice, once for druid, once for wizard). It'll mean that while your spells are determined as a Wiz 3/Druid 3 at this point, your caster level in each will be 7. It'll keep your spells as powerful as they can be, even if you're giving up some higher level slots for the versatility.

[JellyPooga]

My advice for Animal Companion choice is to go for a Brixashulty (Races of the Wild). As a Halfling;

1) you get a normally 4th level choice as a 1st level choice (effectively a free Natural Bond feat!).

2) it's racially appropriate (if you're using halflings as presented in RotW anyway)

3) you get to ride a badass sheep-goat, casting spells while it headbutts your foes into submission. It might not be the strongest combat Companion, but it's tough and nimble, so it makes a good mount (better than a riding dog IMO).

4) if you have a female one you can get free milk and wool (perhaps a slightly dubious merit, but a merit nonetheless!)

[Vizzerdrix]

Will the DM allow you to drop wild shape all together for the Variant from Unearthed Arcana?

[Andry]

Yes I think she will let me drop wildshape although I don't really see much of an advantage for trade personally.

[Stephen_E]

Wildshape has it's uses even without Natural Spell. There are a number of spells like Call Lightingm that have a number of bolts ext, and can be cast before wildshaping. Wildshaping can be used as a "get out of jail free" in circumstance where flight for yourself or for your party (Fire BAts can carry people) and don't forget the healing effect.

Also it allows you to act as a flying scout. There are also some nice Wildshape feats (not optimal, but nice) +8 to spot for 1hr per Druid level + 1/2 range penalties.

Stephen E