Please make my warlock bleed(4th edition)

[meet shield]

Hi, everyone.
I really like the warlock class' concept of a character. But it seems that the Wotc does not. In this edition, as I'm pretty sure you all know, the warlock is good at nothing compared with the most common class as the cleric , or the fighter, or the rogue.
"if you want to be of some use in your party, you should really think about another character concept": that's a phrase I will not bow to.
From the start of 4th edition, I'm looking for a way to have a usefull warlock without selling the soul of the standard warlock's concept.
Until now, I simply figured thta the best way to play it was to invest in the controlling (with a rod of reaving and dual curse for the minion blasting, and powers like infernal moon curse, witchfire and far realm phantasm, powers that can't push an enemy out of the game for one turn while dealing some damage, while staying pretty out of range with shadow walk, eyebite and the evermeet warlock PP).
Today, my friend, that it's also my DM, made me notice the hellish rebuke power. I ever tought that it meant "if you take damage by the target" but it does not, if you can take damage in any way the power will inflict 1d6+con extra damage to your target, with a DPR respectable for a ranger.
I tought "great, so there is a way". A pity that it seems there is no way you can inflict sure little damage to yourself. The best system would be stay in melee and provoke opportunity attack. But if you go on this way, you will fall on your knees long before the end of every encounter (and without dealing enough damage to make it worth of, like the TWF ranger does).
I looked to every possibility: I even tought seriously about jump high with my movement action in order to fall and take falling damage, but it seems that you should have a too high athletic bonus to make it really effective.
I said to him "ok, but why can't I drink a poison? the game is full of this kind of things. Wizards cut their skin to inflict extra damage. Every melee character I've ever walked with in a party has a bloodclaw that pierced his hands in combat, and that still for paladins, rogue, rangers, swordmages... all of them. Why shouldn't I, that selled my soul in order to gain power from some dark evil entity, be said "masochist" if I drink a poison I know the cleric will purify me of before it kills me, in order of do the same?
But he will not listen reasons at all, becouse these are not rules and the rules are like iron bars.
So please. Help me find a way to hurt lightly my character 1/round following the rules.

[Eloel]

You should consider putting [4e] in the title. Easier that way. A 3.5 Warlock can just use Summon Swarm (for bats), get attacked by it, and take 1 damage every round till he's healed.
Is there a similar option in 4e? (I know nothing of 4e)

[meet shield]

(good idea about the title! unfortunatly I know very little of this forum: how can I change the title?)

BTW, well... it seems no. I mean, there are a lot of ways to harm lightly someone preserving my standard action in order to attack, but they all specify that it works on enemies. I mean, following the rule, with my dark powers I couldn't hurt not only myself, not even my allies if I want to!

The best thing I could think about involved the use of the lowest level smallest moster I found in the manual. Basically the plan is to take it, put it in a cage with a chain of security, and put the cage in bag of holding. Then, put the left hand in the bag and in the cage after put the monster's favourite food on the palm. So the monster will bite me every round inflicting very low damage but activating my ability.

[meet shield]

Yes, I know, it's ridiculous. And no, I do not like it.

But I hope that, once I show him that is rule-possible, he will let me use a more likeable descrition of my efforts.

[Master_Rahl22]

First off, I love the 4E Warlock and think they did a great job with the class. I think they could use a few boosts to damage since they are intended to be strikers and have the lowest damage amont strikers. Despite thinking they could use a boost, I still think it's an excellent class. I tend to think of them as half striker and half controller since they get lots of great status effects and debuffs.

Funny that you specifically mention bleeding. One really good way to make an Infernal Warlock is to take a Wizard MC and go into Blood Mage PP. The Bolstering Blood feature lets you deal damage to yourself to add extra damage to powers. It only works for Wizard encounters and dailies, and Blood Mage powers though. You could use Hellish Rebuke on turn 1, then on turn 2 use a Wizard or Blood Mage power and use Bolstering Blood, thus getting extra damage from Hellish Rebuke and extra damage on your Wizard/Blood Mage power.

[Tehnar]

In my 4e game, where I play a fighter a friend is playing a infernal warlock. He is playing as a secondary defender. He uses Armor of Agathys and Bloodcut armor to stay alive. If he is adjacent to a monster marked by me he usually provokes a opportunity attack using his ranged powers. So if he does get hit he takes a small amount of damage, triggers hellish rebuke and the fighters interrupt.

Also due to the automatic damage from zones and Armor of Agthys the warlock usually outdamages the ranger in our party.

[Fostire]

(good idea about the title! unfortunatly I know very little of this forum: how can I change the title?)

Use the edit button on the first post. It should be on the lower right corner of your post. Also use it to avoid double posting

[meet shield]

(thanks Fostire...)

Tehnar, I'm glad that your party works well, but really I can't understand how.
Plese tell me wich of the two is:
-is your warlock using some outcore and out arcane power rule I'm not aware of?
-Or is your ranger not using nor a bloodclaw nor the iron armbands of power nor the weapon focus and extra racial feats from the martial power book?
(or, if archer, the bracers of archery and called shot)

Master_rahl22: I like 4E too, and I don't doubt about the significant augment of balance from 3.5; still, me and my group think that it's useless compared with a fighter dreadnought, or a simple cleric. 'cause he doesn't deal damage in order to be a decent striker, and inflict negative condition that are not comparable to the wizard's ones. In the end, I figured out ways to make it playable in my group, but only at the price of neverending work on the projectation and a flawless tactic in game. And with the same effort, the other classes would be broken. Just think about the Paragon paths for examples. Can you name an excellent one, paragonable to the blood mage, or the battlefield archer, or the dradnought, or the kensai, or so on?

Anyway the bloodmage is a good option. The only problem is that it works only on wizard encounter and daily powers, so you should multiclass entirely in order to gain a serious benefit. Also, it will be less effective than for a full wizard. And, it means you should really revoluzionate your character concept.
So thanks, it's a nice solution. But not the one I'm looking for.
Still, the best I found...

[kestrel404]

Well, there are two possibilities I can see in the basebook, both items (one of them probably out of your EQ range).
The better option is Rod of Death’s Grasp - a warlock implement that allows you, as a free action that substitutes for your curse use that round, to choose a target. That target gets ongoing 10 necrotic damage (save ends) and every time that the target takes damage, you gain 10 HP. Choose yourself as the target - then you take 10 damage and gain 10 hp at the start of your turn. Choose not to save against that ongoing damage and it just keeps happening. The only issue is that if you fall under 10hp, you'll probably fall unconscious at the start of that turn (and then get heald 10hp, but the effect will most likely be disrupted and you may be forced to make a death save by your DM, and lose your actions). The good news is that if your DM allows this (it's rather silly), you'll be able to convert your loads of temp HP into real HP (as the 10 damage will be dealt to temp HP first, and then you gain real HP healing). The big problem is that it's a level 23 item.

Another option, but this one a bit ugly, is to get a flaming weapon (get the level 1 version, it's all you need). Then, as a free action, you can choose to have it 'Deal +1d6 damage on the next hit, plus the target takes ongoing 5 fire damage (save ends)). Again, you choose not to save against this damage (you're on fire. Big deal). If you can somehow manage 4 fire resistance, this is awesome. If not, you're taking 5 damage/round. If course, it does mean you need to stab yourself with a flaming knife and set yourself on fire - also, eats up your daily magic item use for the encounter.

[meet shield]

that's has a big problem: you cannot choose to not do saving throws. it simply happens at the end of your turn. Unfortunatly, it work like this. Is one of the first road I checked, but it doesn't work. so I can waste my hellish rebuke and, on the first round I don't take damage, use the flaming weapon on myself. then I automatical inflict damage for this turn, lose one use of my object daily and get low damages. Then what? I can simply hope not to save, but it probably won't last long enough to get efficient. and it is daily

[Sipex]

Question: What pact does your warlock have?

I'm guessing infernal by what you've said but you've never specified.

[meet shield]

well yes it's infernal. But, BTW, if you are using hellish rebuke , CAN you have another pact (without using dual pact, a tiefling feat).
I thought that you would be bound to your pact's at-will and elderitch balst to eternity IF you are not human. Was I wrong?

[Mando Knight]

well yes it's infernal. But, BTW, if you are using hellish rebuke , CAN you have another pact (without using dual pact, a tiefling feat).
I thought that you would be bound to your pact's at-will and elderitch balst to eternity IF you are not human. Was I wrong?

You are correct. Without being human, a Warlock must take Eldritch Blast and his Pact's at-will as his two at-wills.

[Sipex]

In a general sense you'd have increased survivability if you cursed everything with a pulse then. If I remember correctly anything you curse that drops to 0 hp nets you...x amount of temporary hp.

So you could find some sort of infinite temporary HP loop possibly?

Hm.

Can you curse allies?

[Tehnar]

The thing that brings the warlock up to par vs ranger are mostly the type of encounters. Our group usually doesn't have level equivalent encounters as we find these two easy/boring. Usually its monsters 4+ levels higher then the party average. The problem with them is that such monsters are very hard to hit, and thus automatic damage very much comes in handy.

Additionally, a CON focus and Bloodcut armor our warlock can be in the thick of things and not waste actions on fleeing. Also it is my opinion that for most classes hitting is everything. The warlock started with 20 CON, while the ranger with 18 dex and a bow. Due to his high health and resistances, he can also get the benefit of prime shot much more often, giving him a +2/3 advantage in hit compared to the ranger. Which is huge.

We are at the end of the heroic tier now, so maybe the static bonuses did not add up yet, but those are my experiences so far.

[Sipex]

Oh yeah, that's one thing I noticed as well, the warlock seems to have the one of the largest To-hit bonus amounts. When there's a tough enemy it'll usually be our warlock and rogue hitting it the most often.

[meet shield]

not as much as you can think. Your warlock started with a 20, but nothing preventedyou ranger to do the same, right? a bow give +2 of proficiency and mostly attacks Ac, but monster's AC is 2 points higher than the other defenses, not more.
and the warlock is more resistent, yes, but the ranger can count on weave into the fray and yeld ground to escape enemies that cames near.

[Mando Knight]

What's helping the Warlock is that unlike the Ranger and Rogue, he gets to pick the defense he targets. Fighting The Heavy? Use Reflex or Will targeting powers. The Scout? Tag his Fort. Most monsters have a high NAD and two lower ones. By knowing what kind of monster the opponent is, you can infer which of these is the lowest, and hit it rather reliably.

[Kylarra]

It's not the "best" combo, but if you're human (or can get your DM to swap eldritch blast for eldritch strike) you can alternate hellish rebuke with eldritch strike on a bloodclaw weapon. (You'd need to burn another feat to get light or heavy blades as an implement though).

Could use a glaive for a reach eldritch strike to keep them 2 spaces away.

Jar of Steam (AV) is a level 7 item that 1/day (Daily power) can be opened to create a burst 1 zone that deals 1D6 fire damage to any creature other than the activator, sustain minor so long as they stand within 10 squares of the zone. Not great for your survival rate, but eh.

[Master_Rahl22]

Dual pact has been errata'd to allow any race, not just Tieflings.

As for your other comments, Feytouched is a great PP, and if you continue with that theme you're almost always targeting Will which is generally the lowest defense, and you can do things like take complete control of an enemy or completely remove an enemy from the battle for several turns, dealing a good chunk of damage in the process. To me, Warlocks aren't about damage and nothing else. Rangers are widely recognized as the DPR kings, but that's all they do. I can make my whole team invisible to an enemy, or force him to move around the battlefield how I want him to, or the above effects with a Feylock and that to me is much more fun than "I use Twin Strike again."

[Kurald Galain]

Hi, everyone.
I really like the warlock class' concept of a character. But it seems that the Wotc does not. In this edition, as I'm pretty sure you all know, the warlock is good at nothing compared with the most common class as the cleric , or the fighter, or the rogue.

Not exactly.

The warlock is a solid class. It is, however, only marginally a striker: of all the strikers printed so far, it does the least damage.

It compensates for that by other things. It afflicts more status conditions than other strikers, has excellent mobility, and is hard to hit. It requires a very different playstyle than e.g. an archer-ranger, but is nevertheless a very viable class.

[meet shield]

I do not agree. it's true, you can be very hard to hit. I mostly end fights with scratches that a singole HS can remove. But that's not becouse the monster missed me, that's beouse they couldn't target me. This way, it's as if my hps are removed from the party's poll of life, letting them dealing with the encounter.
Problem about the warlock: they are controller. They inflicts good penalities or condition, that's what i like the most about the class.
Tha simple fact is that they do UTEOYNT, while wizards can do it SE.
And I am not so sure about what you gain to balance that.
It's not the dmage, cause you do not inflict that much more than a wizard, and wizard have nice thing as the orb feature. SW is good, but wizards have intelligence as primary ability score, so their AC and Reflexes will be just high enough to compare with your. And that without the need to move.
Also, while a feypact warlock will target ac often, a wizard can chose his at-wills to target every defense he notice his master often keep low.

Honestly, to me they still loke underpower. compared to the wizards, that are not an overpowered class.

[cupkeyk]

There are generally two acceptable ways of hurting yourself:

1. Sacrifice to Caiphon. Miss and hurt yourself
2. Bloodclaw Gauntlets. Lets you use your Rods since they occupy your handslot. Minor action to hurt yourself. Never get anything higher than bloodclaw gauntlets +1 because more damage is unecessary.

[meet shield]

that sounds perfect! but where can I find these bloodclaw bracers you're speaking of?
I can't see them nor in the Adventurer's Vault nor in the PHB.

[cupkeyk]

Bloodclaw is a weapon property in Adventurer's Vault. Gauntlets are a weapon introduced in Adventurer's Vault, they count as an unarmed strike. They are weapons that occupy hand slot as well.

[Kurald Galain]

I tought "great, so there is a way". A pity that it seems there is no way you can inflict sure little damage to yourself. The best system would be stay in melee and provoke opportunity attack. But if you go on this way, you will fall on your knees long before the end of every encounter (and without dealing enough damage to make it worth of, like the TWF ranger does).

Most infernalocks compensate for this by grabbing lots 'n lots of temporary hit points (besides, note that you're a controller, and if the enemy elects to not attack you, then you're controlling him).

Bloodclaw is a weapon. Through a rules loophole (that no DM in my area would allow, but YMMV) you can enchant a gauntlet with a weapon enchantment, which essentially lets you use the properties of three weapons (or implements) simultaneously. Even so, bloodclaw only lets you damage yourself when making melee attacks, which most warlocks don't do.

A simpler solution is to use soulshards from the AV2; they are consumable items that damage you.

[Sipex]

I think your problem is you're assuming your character should be the best at something when this is simply not true. With multiple uses none of your uses are going to be the best when compared to a pure type. You aren't going to deal as much damage as a pure striker (ie: ranger) and you're not going to control as well as a pure controller (ie: wizard).

If you're going to compare your class to theirs like that you'd need to run tests in order to see how effective you actually are:

1) Take a few monsters of your level, all from different groups: Minion, Brute, Skirmisher, Lurker...ask your DM for these.

2) For each monster take your warlock's At-will attacks. What do you need to roll to hit the monster? What's your average damage to the monster per attack? (include curse damage and prime shot bonus). If the attack doesn't do damage (or does more than damage) how effective is the secondary effect?

3) Check the monster attacks. For each attack what does it need to roll to hit you if you take advantage of your class abilities (ie: shadow walk). Assuming the attack hits, how effective will it be? What % of your health will be lost on average? How well can you wear down the conditions? If you took continual hits of that sort, how long would you be able to last including class features?

4) Now do the same with the Wizard and Ranger classes. I'll bet you the ranger will have slightly worse to-hit then you and will be easier to hit while the Wizard won't have ANYTHING on you in single monster combat.

5) Repeat the process with multiple monsters, encounter powers and daily powers.

[cupkeyk]

Bloodclaw is a weapon. Through a rules loophole (that no DM in my area would allow, but YMMV) you can enchant a gauntlet with a weapon enchantment, which essentially lets you use the properties of three weapons (or implements) simultaneously. Even so, bloodclaw only lets you damage yourself when making melee attacks, which most warlocks don't do.

Or you can take reaping strike to make eldritch blast a melee range power. ^_^

[Silver Coin]

The fact that bonus damaged in this case only applies to melee is irrelevant. He just wants to take a little dmg per turn to get his hellish rebuke bonus. So yes, technically a bloodclaw gauntlet would work, and technically, since its a hand slot item, you can still enchant your rod or any implement you are using any way you like.

[Kurald Galain]

The fact that bonus damaged in this case only applies to melee is irrelevant.

Yes, but the fact that bloodclaw's power starts with "Use this power before making a melee attack..." is very relevant.