How would you nerf magic in 3.5?

[Paganboy28]

Everyone agrees the caster classes end up over-shadowing the non-caster classes.

So how would you nerf them? Less spells? Less access to uber spells?

Or is the answer to buff the non-caster classes?


With Pathfinder they don't seem to have done much to bridge the gap between these so the problem will still exist.

Does this gap matter to players? If not then I guess this is just a mechanics problem?

Does the entire magic system in DnD need a overhaul?

How about having to make a skill check or something to be able to cast spells?

[Yukitsu]

The problem is less classes than it is jerks willing to abuse the system. My suggested fix is to slap the offending player with a rotten herring.

Seriously, a sufficiently optimized commoner can seriously hamper a DM's plans, and a sufficiently unoptimized wizard can go down pretty hard even with full spells.

There is no silver bullet that I've seen that fixes magic. No matter how much my DM axes, I still can manage more with a caster than another player can manage with any other class. If you want, you can adjust spells available in your campaign to remove the biggest offenders.

[Bayar]

The thing is, all the brokenness exists, but when you come down and play with your friends, you play to enjoy the game, not pwn everybody with your uber l33t spells.

If they are being jackasses and do stuff that make to not enjoy the game, break out the flesh to salt cows and other stuff and make their game miserable too.

[Fax Celestis]

The Big Offenders (Archivist, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard) are only ensconced in that position for two reasons: The first is having spells that are too powerful; the second is having access to too many spells.

Compare a wizard to a beguiler, for instance. While a beguiler gets more spells per day, more skill points, a better HD, and class features, the wizard is still considered a stronger class because it has unlimited access to every wizard spell printed--a beguiler has a much smaller and much more focused list of spells.

In a similar vein, some spells are just Too Good. Most of these are listed rather frequently in discussions. You will note, however, that despite the fact that other modes of magic approach the power of the Big Offenders, none of them breach it--binders, for instance, get their abilities much much more frequently than a sorcerer does, but they are not broken as their options are limited, and the powers they possess are not gamebreakingly strong: just strong.

[Berserk Monk]

I was watching an episode of MST3K the other day and it was the one that showed Merlin's Shop of Mystical Wonders. One thing I thought was interesting about the film beside the dark satanic powers and animal deaths in a children's movie was that there were side effects to certain spells. Like, this one character casted a spell that had the side effect of propelling flames from his mouth. You could have that in D&D. Like, a side effect for a spell could be you lose 6 points to str or con or you take 20% of your max HP in damage or you lose 4 other prepared spells or some other negative side effect.

[Bayar]

Alternatively, you could use the Slayers D20 Magic system. It is awesome.

[quick_comment]

I think making spells deal nonlethal damage to the caster is nice. If the caster is immune to nonlethal, its converted to lethal.

[RagnaroksChosen]

I always wondered if taking from 2nd ed would be better..

don't allow bonus spells.
Period. Not even from specialization (give them a bonus caster level instead).
Cuts down on the amount of spells they can cast, take out super broken spells and or make them RP it.

I also thought of though the book keeping would become annoying. is enforcing the spell component rule. and not allow eschew materials or spell component pouches.

Edit: I've never tried any of these though i would like to here peoples opinions of them.

[Paganboy28]

I was watching an episode of MST3K the other day and it was the one that showed Merlin's Shop of Mystical Wonders. One thing I thought was interesting about the film beside the dark satanic powers and animal deaths in a children's movie was that there were side effects to certain spells. Like, this one character casted a spell that had the side effect of propelling flames from his mouth. You could have that in D&D. Like, a side effect for a spell could be you lose 6 points to str or con or you take 20% of your max HP in damage or you lose 4 other prepared spells or some other negative side effect.

That sort of thing already exists in other DnD books for corrupt spells and such. I guess you could extend that out to encompass all spells.

[Jergmo]

I've been toying around with a lot of the spells that The Logic Ninja lists as being Stinky Cheese and some metamagic feats/etc. But my campaign also operates on lower levels with half experience progression, so 7th level spells are pretty much the new 9th level spells and anything higher is the new Epic Magic. One thing that's bothered me about the spell selection bit is "Why does every magic shopkeeper have scrolls of all of these apocalyptic spells?" A lot of the more powerful spells are from ancient civilizations that need to be discovered in the Terrifying Ruins of Doom. I've also abandoned the silly Vancian Magic system in favor of Spell Points, and yes yadda yadda that's so overpowered, however, I've decided to make it so spells increase in cost quadratically, like with spell power. (spell level x spell level / 2). IE: A 7th level spell would cost 25 points, instead of 13.

[oxybe]

the wizard, as is, is perfectly fine.

his spells... there's the problem.

the main issue with spellcasters is that the archetypes they are supposed to emulate are generally more broad/ill-defined or have access to a larger array of options then your standard non-caster.

when it comes to combat, the only difference between a fighter, a barbarian and a rogue is the delivery method of their attacks, at the end of the day, they're all playing "HP Damage". their capabilities are also pretty much the same... while stat variations can alter it more or less and skills can allow for a wider margin of variation, they are pretty much all stuck with the same limitations on what they can and cannot do. they are largely dependent on their gear to give them extra abilities to keep up with the threats they face

casters however aren't. they can play the "HP damage" game should they feel like it but they have others they are better suited for: "stat damage", "level drain", "Save or Die", ect... and yet the delivery method stays the same, generally speaking.

if the caster sticks to one archetype, they usually aren't totally borked: the "tim the enchanter evoker" type that plays the "HP damage" game is generally considered the weakest and isn't a problem. the "mindbender/illusionist" can cause problems due to domination and other "social win" spells, but is knocked down a few pegs when he faces undead & other mindless types. the abjurer can cause problems with his counter magic and defensive spells, but is generally beneficial for the group.

the problem is when those archetypes are mixed and matched. when you have a flying, transforming, debuffing, insta-killing machine... ouch. the options casters have available to them is staggering. especially when you consider that they can use money to cover their bases or focus on their strengths.

honestly, the easiest way to nerf mages, IMO, in 3rd ed is to nerf the spell selection itself. archtype-casters, like the warmage, beguiler & dread necro, are possibly the "best" way to go about this. and even then you'll still run into problems, be it mechanical or just difficulty creating a character that is similiar to your vision.

my opinion is to take it one spell at a time, really.

[Kalirren]

I'd make most spells take 1 full round to cast instead of one standard action. This balances spell action economy with full attack action economy.

I'd re-institute the 2E spell disruption rule; if you get hit for even 1 damage while you are casting a spell, you lose it. Period. This makes it easier for fighters to counter casters.

I'd also make use of the fact that spells are split by school and make it so that spell progression comes as a chain of feats, just like everything in the fighter class is described in terms of feats. The way I envision it to work would be thus; as a caster, you can cast any spell on your spell list if you have the slot for it. You start with a spell list that contains only the cantrips. You could take a feat to add the spells of a single school of certain levels to your spell list (not your spells known, your spell -list-): 1st through 3rd, 4th through 6th, 7th and 8th, and 9th.

Example:
The feat Least Abjuration would add 1st-level, 2nd-level, and 3rd-level abjuration spells to your spell list,
The feat Lesser Abjuration would add 4th-level, 5th-level, and 6th-level abjuration spells to your spell list,
The feat Greater Abjuration would add 7th-level and 8th-level abjuration spells to your spell list,
and the feat Master Abjuration would top it off with 9th-level abjuration spells.

The effects this would have upon wizards, sorcerers (!), clerics, and druids are profoundly balancing. You would have to tweak individual spells to scale better with caster level, but these hit the big points.

[arguskos]

I have a running ban list of spells that I just don't permit, because they're too overpowering of everything else. Celerity, Consumptive Field, and others are on said list.

I also have broken magic into many different categories: the arcane casters are now 7 unique classes; clerics have a much more domain focused list; druids are now two classes (one with casting based on elemental themes ala Storm, one with wild shape).

So far, my changes have been working well. It also helps that I highly recommend that non-magical characters be as creative as they can be and use any and every resource they can to get where they want to go.

[Toliudar]

I'm borrowing from Viletta Vadim, and preparing a campaign in which the Tier 1 classes are closed to PC's, and half a dozen of the stinkiest spells/effects (the polymorph line, celerity, craft contingent spell, Divine Metamagic) simply don't exist. If a Favoured Soul wants to go around pumping himself up with Divine Power all the time, it's still just melee, and as a DM I'll cope.

[valadil]

I'm not sure that this would work, but it's something I've wanted to try for a while.

I would be rigorously enforce material component costs. This would include acquiring, storing, and transporting components. Some components may not be legal in certain parts of the world, because, well, the dwarf mayor doesn't want you summoning demons in the fountain by town square.

I like this solution because it hardly changes the rules at all. You might want to ban eschew materials though.

In actual game play I probably would change some of the components. I'd merge many of them together, so the bean counting wouldn't be that horrendous. There would probably be 20 basic components and a couple dozen others for special cases. I'd also print out cards of the components so that the players would have an easier time tracking them. If I really wanted to put some time into it, each component card would include a list of spells that required it.

So yes, players can cast celerity. But they can do it exactly once and only after I've given them the sands of time component from a smashed hourglass.

[PinkysBrain]

Even if you get rid of the cheesiest spells there are still two problems with magic, the biggest nukes come out in round 1 (in important fights) and unlimited buffs create too big a difference between prepared and unprepared characters.

On the gaming den they have a mechanic which kinda sorta solves the former problem called Winds of Fate (a dice roll which determine the max spell level usable that round). But I don't really like it. I'd rather see a slow escalation of spell power as the duration of the encounter increases. Only problem is how to do it without 4e hand waving and creating a rule which completely breaks the suspense of disbelief. I'd say that if any given round a spell is cast in an area then the "magic density" increases by 1d4 (make the range in which this happens something large like 2000 feet so it doesn't become a book keeping chore) with spell level limited by magic density with a minimum of 1 (might let people bump that to 2 and 3 respectively with 2 feats). Of course you could raise magic level before a fight simply by casting some spells, but that would be detectable by casters (and I'd make some uber cheap wondrous items which detected it too).

It has the side effect that classes with decent "at will" damage not so much dependent on spell/power/invocation/manoeuvre/etc. such as plain martial characters (also binders, incarnum users and to a lesser degree warlocks) benefit since they are at full power early in the encounter. Which isn't a bad deal.

As for buffs, just limit the amount which you can have active.

[Jergmo]

I'd also make use of the fact that spells are split by school and make it so that spell progression comes as a chain of feats, just like everything in the fighter class is described in terms of feats. The way I envision it to work would be thus; as a caster, you can cast any spell on your spell list if you have the slot for it. You start with a spell list that contains only the cantrips. You could take a feat to add the spells of a single school of certain levels to your spell list (not your spells known, your spell -list-): 1st through 3rd, 4th through 6th, 7th and 8th, and 9th.

But then they can't do anything with their feats except use them to take spells. This in general is going to have a bunch of infuriated spellcasters.

[Quietus]

Easiest method I've found that works : Ask your players not to break your game.

Of course, if they insist on doing so, you give them a warning that whatever they do, I'm allowed to turn back on them. So ubercastersofdoom will simply ensure that they fight more of the same, and I have a lot more save or die spells available to me than they do.

[Totally Guy]

I'd look at the cost of magic.


Currently magic if not cast before the next time you replenish your slots or rememorise are essentially wasted. So there's no cost.

I'd create a new skill, Magic Flow. Magic Flow (Con) would be checked every time the caster cast a spell. The DC would be 5 + 3x the Spell's level. If the Magic Flow check is failed it represents the caster overloading his mind and body with raw arcana or divine manifestations. The failed check would give a Con penalty equal to half the spell level. The spell cast would still have full effect.

Of course it kind of becomes a required thing for the spellcaster to have but I can't find a cost scales right without it being a skill.

[Kalirren]

But then they can't do anything with their feats except use them to take spells. This in general is going to have a bunch of infuriated spellcasters.

It's not like fighters have anything to do besides take feats anyway. Guess why they're mad?

The big problem with 3.5 is that there are two different system languages going on - one is in terms of spells and action economy, and the other is in terms of HP, combat feats, and special attacks and defenses. They cannot coexist. One must give way.

So 4e went the route of describing fighters in a language based upon powers and action economy, and that's just fine. The alternative, which I am proposing a rough version of here, is to collapse it the other way, describe casters in terms of feats and special attacks and defenses.

You can tweak the number of feats the casters get, but in the end it won't end up being more than one every two levels, and I think that translates to a good enough restriction on the sheer variety of powers to make the game much more workable.

[Typewriter]

The problem with spellcasting, in my opinion, is not the spellcasters themselves but the spells. I hate to admit liking any part of fourth edition, but I think that the ritual book was one of the greatest ideas imaginable.

If 'spells' were cut down to things that were damage/give penalty/insta kill/healing/few other things, but everything that had an out of combat use was made into a 'ritual', that would be awesome. Change the casting time around some, and make them fit. Make it a skill based thing where initially the skill is only available to casters, but with a feat can be made available to anyone.

One initial problem with this system would be that if anyone can buff, and anyone can raise dead, then what keeps the wizard from 'just' being a blaster and clerics 'just' being a healer? Class abilities. Wizard level 5: Once per two rogue levels you can use any ritual with twice the normal 'quantity'. The 'quantity' affected goes up by 1 for every 5 additional levels.

Quantity is dependant on the ritual. Something like grease would be a base 5 ft. square, but a level 10 wizard could affect 3 squares. Fly normally only affects one person, but a level 20 wizard could affect 5 people with one casting. So on and so forth.

But what I really enjoy is that the fun things themselves are available to everyone. Not everyone would be able to use those as well as wizards/clerics but they would be able to pull out their ritual book and Dimension Door away if they got trapped.

[Tehnar]

Aside from the Stinky Cheese spells, I don't think most spells need changing. Maybe some of the more vague ones clarified.

What makes magic broken in 3.5 is that it grants extra actions. This is usually gained through metamagic reducers, Stinky Cheese spells, and/or class features. Removing those options would equal the playing field more.

[Lycanthromancer]

The best way is to ban all tier 1 classes (and the highest tier 2s, primarily the sorcerer), and restrict your games to the lower tier 2s, 3s, and the higher tier 4s. Extreme optimizers could get lower tiers (low 4s and 5s), but everyone else should be higher.

So, basically, nab the psion, psychic warrior, (a modified, slightly improved) wilder, incarnate, totemist, warblade, crusader, swordsage, bard, barbarian, factotum, rogue, wildshape ranger, beguiler, dread necromancer, favored soul, etc.

Considerably better balanced, since you're banning most of core, which is most of the problem.

[Murphy80]

I am kicking around an idea to make all spellcasters warlock like. Take the Warlock, remove the fluff and crunch of "Have to get their power from demons(C or E)" and allow them to pick there invocations from a chosen list (wiz-sor, cleric, druid, etc...). All spells would have to be tweaked to account for the ability to cast them all day long, but since they would get so few, I think that would be doable. The class abilities would need to be dropped or customized.

What do you think, is this idea worth pursuing or does it have a glaring flaw that I'm just not seeing.

[Myou]

Re-write 90% of published spells.

[FMArthur]

So many spells on certain lists are too powerful that you just have to accept that it's an incredibly huge project to nerf them all. Not impossible, but a major, major headache. Just outright ban the wizard, sorceror, archivist, cleric, favored soul and druid. There are enough options available in 3.5 now that banning those 6 classes still lets players desiring to play characters of those types find a suitable class without them in the game.

[Gnaeus]

The best way is to ban all tier 1 classes (and the highest tier 2s, primarily the sorcerer), and restrict your games to the lower tier 2s, 3s, and the higher tier 4s. Extreme optimizers could get lower tiers (low 4s and 5s), but everyone else should be higher.

So, basically, nab the psion, psychic warrior, (a modified, slightly improved) wilder, incarnate, totemist, warblade, crusader, swordsage, bard, barbarian, factotum, rogue, wildshape ranger, beguiler, dread necromancer, favored soul, etc.

Considerably better balanced, since you're banning most of core, which is most of the problem.

I agree with this (although I would keep the sorcerer, and allow dips into Tier 4+5).

[JellyPooga]

I'm not sure that this would work, but it's something I've wanted to try for a while.

I would be rigorously enforce material component costs. This would include acquiring, storing, and transporting components. Some components may not be legal in certain parts of the world, because, well, the dwarf mayor doesn't want you summoning demons in the fountain by town square.

I like this solution because it hardly changes the rules at all. You might want to ban eschew materials though.

In actual game play I probably would change some of the components. I'd merge many of them together, so the bean counting wouldn't be that horrendous. There would probably be 20 basic components and a couple dozen others for special cases. I'd also print out cards of the components so that the players would have an easier time tracking them. If I really wanted to put some time into it, each component card would include a list of spells that required it.

So yes, players can cast celerity. But they can do it exactly once and only after I've given them the sands of time component from a smashed hourglass.

This. The first game I played with magic in it was the MB/GW game Heroquest and it's 'Big Brother' Advanced Heroquest. In both of these games (in Advanced it's more pronounced), Magic is extremely powerful (probably about as much more powerful as magic in D&D is over warrior types at the Lvl 8-13 range), but is kept in check by the fact that every spell requires a component and those components are relatively expensive (for comparison, a spell component cost about the same as a sword and you needed one or more componets to cast each and every spell).

Tracking spell components is not a perfect fix; not every spell has a material component, for example, but it does do a lot towards making casters what they should be: powerful but limited in how often they can use that power.

[Telonius]

Druid is fairly easily fixed by using the Shapeshift variant. Cleric is fairly easily fixed by removing Nightsticks and making Divine Power a War Domain spell only. (Also limiting things that grant access to additional domains).

Where you run into problems are with Wizards, Archivists, Artificers, and (to a lesser extent) Sorcerers. Flat-out removing Contingent Spell and some of the most egregiously bad or overpowered spells (polymorph line, shivering touch, Forcecage, Time Stop, Orb spells, etc) will go a long way to balancing Wizards and Sorcerers. For Archivist, limit the spell level of non-divine spells he knows. Artificers can still break the WBL balance, but without some of the Wizard's worst toys to play with it won't be quite as bad.

[Myou]

I'm not sure that this would work, but it's something I've wanted to try for a while.

I would be rigorously enforce material component costs. This would include acquiring, storing, and transporting components. Some components may not be legal in certain parts of the world, because, well, the dwarf mayor doesn't want you summoning demons in the fountain by town square.

I like this solution because it hardly changes the rules at all. You might want to ban eschew materials though.

In actual game play I probably would change some of the components. I'd merge many of them together, so the bean counting wouldn't be that horrendous. There would probably be 20 basic components and a couple dozen others for special cases. I'd also print out cards of the components so that the players would have an easier time tracking them. If I really wanted to put some time into it, each component card would include a list of spells that required it.

So yes, players can cast celerity. But they can do it exactly once and only after I've given them the sands of time component from a smashed hourglass.

Stopping characters from using their class abilities by enforcing endless book-keeping does not balance anything. It just means that no-one will want to play casters any more.