Dump Stats

[Melamoto]

People often take Wis and Cha as dump stats in games, and not just in Char Op. I try to do this as little as possible, because from a roleplaying point of view, unless it's the idea of your character, dumping these stats is just plain bad.

Taking a look at one they entail:
Wisdom affects your sanity, mental strength, and connection to the world around you. With a Wis of 8, you're looking at somebody whose head is often in the clouds, or can't focus on anything very well. Short attention span (And on a related note, why on earth is Concentration based off Con? That implies that an old, frail, but constantly meditating mystic wouldn't be able to concentrate as well as a Barbarian with a brain the size of a peanut and ADD who had equal ranks in concentration. And what's this? When you rage, you can't tumble, but you can concentrate?). Lower than 8, and we're getting into complete Cloud Cuckoo landers, very unlike most of the serious Wizards who concentrate and are very attached to matters at hand. In some cases, this might make sense; someone who hangs around in a dungeon with insane creatures all day might take a few sanity points. But not as much as they often are in sessions.
Charisma is not just your appearance; it's your force of personality, self-confidence, ego, pretty much what builds your psyche, sharing the role only with Wisdom and Alignment (Not Intelligence). So many people use Cha as a dump stat. With a Cha of 8, people should be shy and petty, not strongly willed or very confident in themselves. They should have trouble feeling fit for matters at hand, be timid; even a mighty barbarian shouldn't be shouting very loud, or be saying things like "I say we stop wasting time and go and kick their asses!" with a tiny charisma score. Lower than 8, these people need psychological help. What happens when you hit 0 Cha? You lose all sense of being, and become what amounts to a vegetable. Your mind is intact; but it's like having a car without fuel. You can be ugly without being a social wreck, and you can be beautiful without having a strong force of will. This is what circumstance modifiers are for!

Considering this, why do I see so many careful and calculating wizards who always have themselves a contingency plan when they have a Wisdom of 6? Why do I see so many brave, confident barbarians who believe in their power and always put themselves first when they have a Cha of 5 or 4?

[Grumman]

(And on a related note, why on earth is Concentration based off Con? That implies that an old, frail, but constantly meditating mystic wouldn't be able to concentrate as well as a Barbarian with a brain the size of a peanut and ADD who had equal ranks in concentration. And what's this? When you rage, you can't tumble, but you can concentrate?)

Concentration lets you ignore injury and discomfort. The tougher you are, the less discomfort there is to ignore.

Charisma is not just your appearance; it's your force of personality, self-confidence, ego, pretty much what builds your psyche, sharing the role only with Wisdom and Alignment (Not Intelligence).

I disagree. It definitely affects how easily you can convince or manipulate other people, but any relation to self-confidence and ego doesn't actually show up in the rules.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Because those people are poor roleplayers. Cha 4 shouldn't be confident in any way. Wisdom 6 might conceivably think of plans, and even many contingency plans if their Intelligence is so high. The wisdom part comes in when looking at whether or not those plans work, or whether the wizard can successfully execute them.

I think your threshold for mental problems is too low. Based on the probability of Int 7 charted against (a possibly misleading) IQ graph, Int 7 is merely on the lower end of dull. Even Int 5 is just really stupid; but not so stupid that it can't function decently in society. Complete Cloud Cuckoo land would start maybe at Wisdom 5. Wisdom 7 is still very much sane, if quite a fool. Charisma 7 definitely does not need mental help (although, in this day and age, it would probably get a whole bunch of "help" drugs), and Charisma 6 could function decently.

Again, you overemphasize the crippling power of a low Charisma. Charisma 8 could be shy, and shouldn't be very strong-willed or confident. "not very confident" doesn't mean "not confident at all" - especially when, due to extenuating circumstances, they've already been pushed into adventuring. A career like that builds assertiveness, or at least the facade of it; and likewise for a barbarian culture.

The stats I never dump are Con and Int (although I may have them low). Low charisma is, as you mentioned, a fast lane to a insecure wallflower. However, I find that the constant presence of a great leader (a Cha-monkey in your party) tends to alleviate that significantly. RP-wise, I can empathize with low Wisdom characters, and if they're too low it's fun to play the fool. I don't enjoy the effort of restraining my ideas (intelligence) just to stay in character.

You say that dumping Wis or Cha is a poor idea, unless it's in your concept. IMO, any dump stat sort of becomes your concept. A pathetically weak person will have his life defined by it; same with a frail, sickly fellow or a massively clumsy oaf. Low mental stats literally define the person. You don't dump a stat unless you're ready to deal with it - but no concept will be broken in half by a dump stat.

[Melamoto]

I think your threshold for mental problems is too low. Based on the probability of Int 7 charted against (a possibly misleading) IQ graph, Int 7 is merely on the lower end of dull. Even Int 5 is just really stupid; but not so stupid that it can't function decently in society.

I disagree with this based on the idea that the average is 10-11, and animals are at 3. Int 5 should probably not be able to function decently in society, apart from a Lennie-esque brute force worker who needs a personal supervisor.

Complete Cloud Cuckoo land would start maybe at Wisdom 5. Wisdom 7 is still very much sane, if quite a fool. Charisma 7 definitely does not need mental help (although, in this day and age, it would probably get a whole bunch of "help" drugs), and Charisma 6 could function decently.

The thing is, the scale is quite small. Charisma 5-6 is half way to being disabled by it, and Cha 7 is only 1 step above that. When I say mental help, I mean Psychiatrist, special treatment by those close (Constant build-ups needed), and somebody to help them be more assertive. Alone, they would be getting conned by everyone who tried, simply because they wouldn't stand against it, whether or not they could figure it out.

Again, you overemphasize the crippling power of a low Charisma. Charisma 8 could be shy, and shouldn't be very strong-willed or confident. "not very confident" doesn't mean "not confident at all" - especially when, due to extenuating circumstances, they've already been pushed into adventuring. A career like that builds assertiveness, or at least the facade of it; and likewise for a barbarian culture.

I never said they would be not confident at all; I said exactly that they would not be very confident in themselves. "It's time to kick ass and chew bubblegum" and the like are matters of bravery and confidence, which a Barbarian with low Cha should be lacking. And you're right, Barbarian and adventuring culture should promote and teach these things; which is WHY Barbarians and adventurers shouldn't be packing low charisma scores!

You say that dumping Wis or Cha is a poor idea, unless it's in your concept. IMO, any dump stat sort of becomes your concept. A pathetically weak person will have his life defined by it; same with a frail, sickly fellow or a massively clumsy oaf. Low mental stats literally define the person. You don't dump a stat unless you're ready to deal with it - but no concept will be broken in half by a dump stat.

This is where I agree with you. But people don't play low strength sorcerers who go around lifting things and fighting well in melee. Meanwhile, low charisma rage-fighters go around screaming blood fury, starting bar fights, and taking the initiative. Low wisdom Wizards ponder each strategy they make carefully, comparing it with others, and waiting it out until the perfect opportunity comes up.

[Rainbownaga]

You can be incredibly self confident with a charisma score of 1, it just means that everybody instinctively dislikes you and comments behind your back things like "can you believe that person actually talked to me?"

As for wisdom, it covers so many things it's ridiculous. I like to think of it as your 'animal intelligence' since it covers the more primal aspects such as perception and empathy as much as sensibility. You could probably actually play one almost as a Vulcan, ignoring the primitive 'emotions' meaning you have no empathy, and focus only on what is 'logical' (int) based on what is common sense (wis)

[Sliver]

And what's this? When you rage, you can't tumble, but you can concentrate?

NO, no you can't.

While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration

Anyway, one of my players wanted 4 WIS (a crusader//FavSoul..) but I had some problem with that, saying that min 6 wis or I will force him to RP that (not the greatest RPer.. by far) and that I fail to see a god being proud of someone like that..

[Melamoto]

You can be incredibly self confident with a charisma score of 1, it just means that everybody instinctively dislikes you and comments behind your back things like "can you believe that person actually talked to me?"

Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting.

And if what you said was the case, then why do people with 0 Charisma lose sapience?

Concentration lets you ignore injury and discomfort. The tougher you are, the less discomfort there is to ignore.

If that's the reason, then Intelligence should also help you with bluff because you can figure out a more elaborate lie.

NO, no you can't.

My bad then.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Int 5 is not halfway to crippled. Statistically, the difference between Int 4 and Int 5 is much larger than the difference between Int 10 and Int 11. Based on the bell curve for 3d6, an ability score of 5 is anywhere from the high teens to the low 20s for percentile. About 10% of people are people are (officially) retarded, so retardation doesn't start until Int 4. I'd expect similar statistics for the other stats.

I consulted the wrong notes, or pressed the wrong numbers, or something. Those numbers are, as you observed, completely wrong. Mental retardation starts at the lower end of Int 6, based on the 3d6 bell curve and retardation statistics a quick google search got me. Int/Wis/Cha 7 is anywhere from the 16th percentile to the 25th percentile as far as intelligence/sanity/confidence goes, which is notably deficient but not crippling. Int 8 is the 26th percentile to the 36th percentile, which again is not horrible. 1 out of every 4 people would be Int 8 or lower, and they don't fail at life. [[these statistics may again be off; since I've been wrong once, don't trust me]]

If that's the reason, then Intelligence should also help you with bluff because you can figure out a more elaborate lie.

Then we get into dual-stat skills, which is a whole other issue. Based on this discussion, I'd place Concentration as Wisdom with a Constitution check to give a synergy bonus or something.

[Temet Nosce]

Considering this, why do I see so many careful and calculating wizards who always have themselves a contingency plan when they have a Wisdom of 6? Why do I see so many brave, confident barbarians who believe in their power and always put themselves first when they have a Cha of 5 or 4?

As far as the wizards - you seem to be attributing Int to Wis.

Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons.

Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings.

Planning is a result of logic, it doesn't require knowing anything about your surroundings but instead is simply a matter of considering what situations might possibly occur and preparing for them in advance. Now, planning for some specific detail might require Wisdom to notice it in the first place, but the having plans for logical possibilities is pure Int. Wis only comes into effect in the acquisition of information, not how the Wizard utilizes his reasoning ability.

As far as Charisma - there you have more of a point. However, it only determines the force of personality not the personality itself, and willpower would probably come into effect on the situation you described as well. It's partially that some people may just not be roleplaying their attributes, partially you overstating the effect of Charisma, and partially that you've confused having a low Cha with having both a low Cha and Wis at the same time.

[Malacode]

I disagree with this based on the idea that the average is 10-11, and animals are at 3. Int 5 should probably not be able to function decently in society, apart from a Lennie-esque brute force worker who needs a personal supervisor.


The thing is, the scale is quite small. Charisma 5-6 is half way to being disabled by it, and Cha 7 is only 1 step above that. When I say mental help, I mean Psychiatrist, special treatment by those close (Constant build-ups needed), and somebody to help them be more assertive. Alone, they would be getting conned by everyone who tried, simply because they wouldn't stand against it, whether or not they could figure it out.

Just adding my two cents here...
This point only applies if you assume the mental ability scale to be linear. I would argue that it is not. Apart from the bell-curve argument put forward by Foryn, there is another method of showing this. The "Bonus spells/day" table. A caster with a casting stat of 12 has only a single bonus spell of level one. At 14 *stat*, that becomes 1 at level one, 1 at level 2. 16 and it becomes 1/1/1.... And so on. Improving a mental ability score by two grants ever-improving benefits as the score gets higher and higher, which is obvious to anywone who realises that a 3rd level spell slot is better than a 2nd level one, which is better than a 1st level slot. I haven't explained myself well, but I hope you can see my logic.

[Sliver]

Then we get into dual-stat skills, which is a whole other issue. Based on this discussion, I'd place Concentration as Wisdom with a Constitution check to give a synergy bonus or something.

Dual-stat skills is a great idea that should have been used from the start.. Sometimes I just give the STR bonus to intimidate instead of the CHA penalty to the fighter, just cuz I feel like it, but the fighter used it to ROAR at the frightened NPC that they just saw... But having a check or something so that 2 stats effect one skill is great, although not always should be used..

[Altair_the_Vexed]

I guess the point the OP is making is valid independent of the subtleties of the ability scores involved:

• someone low CHA is rarely likeable, and is likely just going to be ignored
• someone with low WIS lacks basic mental resilience and dedication
• the traits are not very heroic

However, if you do it right, such flaws can be good role playing opportunities.
I really enjoy playing high INT low WIS characters - they're really smart, so they've never built up much of store of common sense and tend to go with the first good-seeming idea they come up with.
A low CHA can be a good source of angst for a character, driving them to do brave and impressive things to win acclaim.

Anyway - when we use the default or elite arrays, those dump stats aren't so low, they're just lower than average.

[Vangor]

Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting.

I believe you are sincerely wrong about Charisma as this has nothing specified for self-confidence. Low Charisma means despite great self-confidence you would be incapable of inspiring others to a cause or others within the cause to redouble efforts and similar. An example might be the least charismatic Orc one has seen, no sense of manners or etiquette or capacity to negotiate, who is absolutely egotistical due to his tremendous strength which he uses to control a massive tribe.

My own Orc Barbarian/Fighter has a 4 in Charisma, by virtue of point buy, being an Orc, and the Pathetic flaw on Charisma. Any encounter, whether haggling with a merchant, negotiating with a villain, simply gathering quests, and similar is often through threat of violence, usually indirect. With his unimpressive 6 Wisdom, he hasn't quite gleaned the problem this creates. Fortunately, with a 12 Intelligence, while he will Rage and charge the supposed offending party without consideration for peril, he is smart enough to consider his own tactics with what he is currently facing such that he will note the robed man to be the most dangerous, not his larger sidekick.

If that's the reason, then Intelligence should also help you with bluff because you can figure out a more elaborate lie.

More elaborate lies are not better lies, nor are you suddenly more believable. Lying is all about making the other person believe what you say, and needing to tell an unbelievable story is a situation modifier.

[Melamoto]

I believe you are sincerely wrong about Charisma as this has nothing specified for self-confidence. Low Charisma means despite great self-confidence you would be incapable of inspiring others to a cause or others within the cause to redouble efforts and similar. An example might be the least charismatic Orc one has seen, no sense of manners or etiquette or capacity to negotiate, who is absolutely egotistical due to his tremendous strength which he uses to control a massive tribe.

It doesn't say that, no. But "Force of Personality" typically means the force of your personality. A weak personality means a weak mind, means a low self-confidence. You can feel personally proud of what you do, you can believe you are better than some others, but you will never truly feel better for or about it, and will always have doubts.

My own Orc Barbarian/Fighter has a 4 in Charisma, by virtue of point buy, being an Orc, and the Pathetic flaw on Charisma. Any encounter, whether haggling with a merchant, negotiating with a villain, simply gathering quests, and similar is often through threat of violence, usually indirect. With his unimpressive 6 Wisdom, he hasn't quite gleaned the problem this creates.

This would be more or less a correct way to play him, but with a charisma of 4, he shouldn't even be comfortable talking. A 4 in ANY stat means you need serious help. Strength, you have a completely frail body; Constitution, you have bad health and a weak and brittle body; Dexterity, you are so stiff and clumsy you can barely walk without falling over; Intelligence, you probably can barely even talk (If at all); Wisdom, you are clinically insane; and Charisma, you have the self confidence, personality, and assertiveness of a brick.

Fortunately, with a 12 Intelligence, while he will Rage and charge the supposed offending party without consideration for peril, he is smart enough to consider his own tactics with what he is currently facing such that he will note the robed man to be the most dangerous, not his larger sidekick.

What exactly does Charisma mean to you? Do you feel it is entirely your social skills? Because that is not correct, and he can be intelligent enough to think of the right targets, but put it through the brain processes of a Cha 4 character. You wouldn't say it out of fear of ridicule, you wouldn't think to choose the target for yourself out of fear of messing things up, and you wouldn't think to ask out of fear of annoying them. If you're playing a character with 4 in a stat, be prepared for it to cripple him/her for life.

More elaborate lies are not better lies, nor are you suddenly more believable. Lying is all about making the other person believe what you say, and needing to tell an unbelievable story is a situation modifier.

That was just a random example. How about "Dexterity should help with Forgery because you can use fine hand movements to perfectly mimic handwriting"?

[BobVosh]

Anyway, one of my players wanted 4 WIS (a crusader//FavSoul..) but I had some problem with that, saying that min 6 wis or I will force him to RP that (not the greatest RPer.. by far) and that I fail to see a god being proud of someone like that..

You obviously haven't heard the word of Kord.

You aren't going to have ALL these problems for a low stat. You can be ok looking with a low charisma, just an incredible jerk. As for confident low charisma barbarians? How many people liked that, and how fugly were they? Also charisma is a depth of personality, and I'm betting that barbie liked hitting things. Hard. Not much else.

My favorite decision for CHA falling to 0: You don't go into a coma, the party just rises up and destroys you. Obviously you were not meant to be, and some form of a fel abomination.

[Foryn Gilnith]

This would be more or less a correct way to play him, but with a charisma of 4, he shouldn't even be comfortable talking. A 4 in ANY stat means you need serious help. Strength, you have a completely frail body; Constitution, you have bad health and a weak and brittle body; Dexterity, you are so stiff and clumsy you can barely walk without falling over; Intelligence, you probably can barely even talk (If at all); Wisdom, you are clinically insane; and Charisma, you have the self confidence, personality, and assertiveness of a brick.

Again, I disagree. If autism represents low Wisdom, Wis 4 is not autistic. It might be autistic, but it probably isn't. (Wis 3 is autistic). It might be in cloud cuckoo land, but it is not as bad as you make it out to be. Int 4 is retarded, but it can still speak. Cha 4 is socially retarded, which may be interpreted different ways. Str 4 can still bench 40 pounds :P

[ericgrau]

If your common method is to kill and ask questions later, then dumping cha actually makes sense. If you want to roleplay a bit to reduce the need for fighting, then your cha better match. Blame the group not the stat there. Pumping cha to make you more "cool" while your strength and dex don't match is a nonsensical trap: action heroes that aren't focused on action first and cha second wouldn't be so cool in terms of action. They'd be cool in another way, probably just at manipulation b/c you've gone so far on cha.

A wizard with a high int and dumped wis could make extremely complicated contingency plans without batting an eye, but he'd be less aware of what's going on around him and perhaps forget things. That could hurt the execution, when he focuses on one thing in front but forgets about that other guy over there.

[Kurald Galain]

Considering this, why do I see so many careful and calculating wizards who always have themselves a contingency plan when they have a Wisdom of 6? Why do I see so many brave, confident barbarians who believe in their power and always put themselves first when they have a Cha of 5 or 4?

Because, despite what the very short description of the ability scores states, there is a large difference between having a likable personality and having a high cha stat, just like there's not necessarily any relation between how fast your character is and his dex stat. You can e.g. apply int to your reflex defense, or str to social checks, and so forth.

In other words, the mechanical side of your character needn't decide how you roleplay. A character can be wise with a low wis score, or dumb with a high int stat, no problem. This doesn't work as well in most other roleplaying games, but then few games have something as nebulous as a wis score anyway.

[SparkMandriller]

ITT: Melamoto tells us how we're roleplaying wrong.

Thanks for your help Melamoto!

[Vangor]

But "Force of Personality" typically means the force of your personality. A weak personality means a weak mind, means a low self-confidence.

A weak personality may be played in this way, but this is one facet of being weak of personality. Many people have terrific self-confidence in their own abilities but are egotistical, stubborn, etc., which are weaknesses of personality. Many people compensate for low self-confidence by being brash, rude, and similar, too.

he shouldn't even be comfortable talking.

This is such a restrictive idea with how you want to perceive comfort with talking. My character might feel absolutely comfortable speaking, but his mannerisms, idioms, jokes, etc., are awkward, nonsensical, perhaps insulting, and how would one convey this except through low Charisma score without saying he is not self-confident? Or perhaps you believe every person in the world who has difficulties articulating thoughts, suffers from panic attacks before a crowd, convincing others, and similar?

For instance, I feel awkward before a crowd. I sweat profusely, my heart beats rapidly, my eyes wander, and similar. Further, without the crowd I tend to feel the same when the center of attention. Only problem is I am absolutely confident in my abilities to convince others of my position, to articulate and convey thoughts, and to control my mannerisms to where I don't come off as awkward. Am I Charismatic...or not?

That was just a random example. How about "Dexterity should help with Forgery because you can use fine hand movements to perfectly mimic handwriting"?

The problem may be you look towards d&d to be a reflection of how the real world works rather than a simplistic approximation for a rule set. Do you honestly believe Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, and Wisdom have nothing to do with swordsmanship? Certain base classes or feats may take advantage of each, but being swift, exact, enduring, cunning, intuitive, and wary will make you a greater swordsman and capable of inflicting greater harm. Do you believe simply being stronger should be analogous to being knowledgeable and practiced?

In the same manner, the six statistics are not the absolute facets of your character. The problem is further compounded by the short spectrum of negative modifiers. Were the spectrum absolute in progression, the man with 0 Strength lies helpless on the ground, as in the rules, and my Orc with a Strength of 22...? Does he suddenly gain the capacity to lift mountains?

The idea is a simplistic approximation of the world translated for a rule set. We could divide Charisma into Leadership, Magnetism, Oration, Confidence, and presumably others, begin arranging those on a continuum beginning around 20, allow modifiers are continually adding advantage as players progress, and begin dividing rules such as Diplomacy into Negotiation, Banter, actual Diplomacy, and probably further, and we might be venturing into a more realistic set. This is out of hand already, though, and we are on one path.

[Tyndmyr]

And if what you said was the case, then why do people with 0 Charisma lose sapience?

Because 0 of any stat results in your charachter biting the dirt and ceasing to do...anything.

[Ravens_cry]

And if what you said was the case, then why do people with 0 Charisma lose sapience?

No, you don't. You just go into a coma. Intelligence is the one that says your thinkie bits cease functioning.

Intelligence 0 means that the character cannot think and is unconscious in a coma-like stupor, helpless.
. . .
Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless.

Scroll down to Ability Score Loss.

[Melamoto]

For instance, I feel awkward before a crowd. I sweat profusely, my heart beats rapidly, my eyes wander, and similar. Further, without the crowd I tend to feel the same when the center of attention. Only problem is I am absolutely confident in my abilities to convince others of my position, to articulate and convey thoughts, and to control my mannerisms to where I don't come off as awkward. Am I Charismatic...or not?

That hit the nail on the head. As an example: I can't handle working anything out. My brain won't work above a snails pace. I couldn't figure out the whole of my times tables on a bad day. But I have a brilliant memory, and pick up concepts fairly quickly. I am vastly multilingual, and I am frequently able to come up with great plans on the spot. I know many skills, know many languages, but am as thick as a brick, and would never be able to truly master Wizardry, beyond being able to pick up the knowledge for a few cantrips. Am I Intelligent?

You're right in saying that abilities can't truly measure up to real life, and lack realism. That is completely true. But that also means that the complex ways in which character's minds work have to have some kind of balance of ability. And 4 in Charisma is so low that I have to say your character would have to be a bit worse than just unable to do anything good in a social situation. I'd put you at somewhere between Cha 6-8 inclusive.

No, you don't. You just go into a coma. Intelligence is the one that says your thinkie bits cease functioning.

I meant to write Sentience. But what I said is still technically correct.

Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless.

Sapience - ability to apply knowledge or experience or understanding or common sense and insight

[kme]

For instance, I feel awkward before a crowd. I sweat profusely, my heart beats rapidly, my eyes wander, and similar. Further, without the crowd I tend to feel the same when the center of attention. Only problem is I am absolutely confident in my abilities to convince others of my position, to articulate and convey thoughts, and to control my mannerisms to where I don't come off as awkward. Am I Charismatic...or not?

I would say that you are not charismatic but you have the experience/knowledge to substitute for it in those situations. In D&D this would mean that you have the ranks in appropriate skill(s). Someone with 8 charisma and 4 ranks is still better at diplomacy than someone with 14 charisma and no ranks.

[LurkerInPlayground]

Do what Fallout 2 did when you set a low intelligence. Everybody treats you like the idiot that you undoubtedly are. (Plus, your dialogue options are non-existent.)

People tend to be hostile and insulting and around characters with low charisma and are more willing to leap to conclusions about him.

Planescape: Torment, allowed you to simply reference your intelligence score, to win a game of chess or a debate.

Etcetera.

The de-emphasis on the mechanical importance of ability scores does not mean that ability scores are useless, or that it is necessarily superfluous to have a 3-18 range when it really comes down to "low, average, or high." On the contrary, ability scores remain an integral part of describing and defining the PC. However, the OD&D approach demands creativity and judgment from the players and the referee, apart from defined rules. For example, consider this quotation about the effects of Charisma: "...the charisma score is usable to decide such things as whether or not a witch capturing a player will turn him into a swine or keep him enchanted as a lover." (Men & Magic p. 11) In other words, your ability scores are still meant to be taken into account, but exactly how they apply is left up to the players and the referee.

While I'm not 100% on his points on mechanical de-emphasis, I do agree that ability scores ought to be an RP resolution mechanism.

3.x is a bit odd in that the game retains the trademark ability scores and then sets out to define them in agonizing mechanical detail. It's a bit absurd that "simulationism" is undone by WOTC's inability to codify everything in human nature.

In any case, it means the DM probably has to do a bit of referee-work.

If for example, a Str 4 and Cha 18 man is about to get into a bar fight. His intimidate skill is through the roof. I'd probably simply rule that his low strength (i.e. scrawny appearance and not very tall) gives him a penalty if he tries scare his assailant(s) based on the virtue of his brute force.

[Vangor]

I would say that you are not charismatic but you have the experience/knowledge to substitute for it in those situations. In D&D this would mean that you have the ranks in appropriate skill(s). Someone with 8 charisma and 4 ranks is still better at diplomacy than someone with 14 charisma and no ranks.

I could discuss this more fully, but this was more for the stark contrast. Truly, I possess nothing which would be considered training, knowledge, or experience equivalent to ranks, I am simply regarded as very capable of expressing my thoughts and convincing others; this might be more analogous to racial bonuses to skills, but this is not the main point. An uncharismatic character can be confident, or not, and can be a good speaker, or not, but this is an impact.

Yes, if we are speaking away from d&d, I am not charismatic. Within d&d...I don't know.

[LurkerInPlayground]

I could discuss this more fully, but this was more for the stark contrast. Truly, I possess nothing which would be considered training, knowledge, or experience equivalent to ranks, I am simply regarded as very capable of expressing my thoughts and convincing others; this might be more analogous to racial bonuses to skills, but this is not the main point. An uncharismatic character can be confident, or not, and can be a good speaker, or not, but this is an impact.

Yes, if we are speaking away from d&d, I am not charismatic. Within d&d...I don't know.

If Wisdom is about being tranquil and being able to contextualize and control emotions, then I'd say that your lack of confidence is partly to do with a middling Wisdom score.

Also, being able to articulate oneself and convince others through logic is probably an Intelligence thing. It may have the pleasant side effect of being accompanied by a higher Charisma at the time or your rolling. Keep in mind that some people are not convinced by logic or by scholarly debate. People will judge you based on your background, appearance, authority, etcetera. So you may only be convincing to a specific kind of people (i.e. academics, career students, doctors, nerds, etc.)

My point is this. An Intelligence 18 and Charisma 14 are two separate scores, but they contextualize each other. He's probably going to meet expectations for what people think a smart person should act and look like. So when he speaks up, people tend to listen, hence why he has a relatively high Charisma.

An Intelligence 18 but a Charisma 6 might be the kind of person who looks and acts smart, but people don't like listening to him because he's overly critical or leaps to bizarre conclusions that appear publicly like non-sequiturs. Maybe he's overly sarcastic or condescending.

[Ravens_cry]

Or they are a treasure trove of encyclopaedic knowledge that would often have come in handy, but is so shy they never speak up. The possibilities are combinational, and so are closer to infinity then the number of atoms in the known universe or seconds since the beginning of time.
I like the basic ambiguities of the ability scores. Otherwise, one could say the mortal sin of Pen and Paper RPG, "You're doing it wrong." The side effect is threads of this nature, but that is the price we must pay for the openness and freedom possible in tabletop roleplaying.

[Vangor]

If Wisdom is about being tranquil and being able to contextualize and control emotions, then I'd say that your lack of confidence is partly to do with a middling Wisdom score.

This was towards the beginning of the discussion and continues to highlight my point about the inability of the six abilities to successfully cover a wide array of personality types or all the potential facets of personality. The notion of oration comes from Charisma as the modifier for Perform: Oratory, and all of the other social interaction skills possess Charisma, too. Taken from the description of Charisma, I am highly persuasive but I am not personally magnetic, nor am I a leader by most standards despite being highly assertive, and I have no confidence problems but I am not comfortable before audiences.

If we were to take the description of Charisma from the PHB, am I charismatic or not?

Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting.

Bereft of attempting to contextualize and delve my interpretation about my own personality, this ability score does encapsulate those traits I am speaking of, and the flaw is I am strong in certain aspects and weak in others such that I might be accurately roleplayed along the spectrum with a low positive, nonexistent, or low negative modifier. Mechanical adjustments are, of course to be made.

In synopsis, the system is not an accurate reflection of the real world, which is not the point.

[kme]

Yes, if we are speaking away from d&d, I am not charismatic. Within d&d...I don't know.

You can be, if you accept that you have the ranks in appropriate skill (i can try to prove it to you ). You may be overestimating ranks, they don't have to mean that you do some amazing things. It may just be that you can execute simple things well and that still requires practice.