[3.5] More than dual progressions

[Myou]

I was wondering, how far can you take 'dual' progression builds?

Is it possible to build a 20th level character with 9th level arcane spells, divine spells, manouevres and powers? If not how close can you get? Can you get the spells and powers?

[kamikasei]

I think this is the current record holder in that regard, though it's a gestalt build that shamelessly abuses the things you're specifically not supposed to do with gestalt.

[Eldariel]

Overall, yeah, with enough Fast Progression classes I think you can even make a single-class character with at least level 9 Arcane, Divine and Manifesting (or Maneuvers).

[Myou]

I think this is the current record holder in that regard, though it's a gestalt build that shamelessly abuses the things you're specifically not supposed to do with gestalt.

Wow, I think that build turned me lactose-intolerant.

[Nohwl]

Overall, yeah, with enough Fast Progression classes I think you can even make a single-class character with at least level 9 Arcane, Divine and Manifesting (or Maneuvers).

i think the only way is to use ardent and practiced manifester to do it. beholder mage and ur priest would give you the arcane and divine casting.

[sofawall]

Tidesinger had a build floating around that was double 9s with 16 BAB, I believe.

[BobVosh]

There is always Pun-Pun! Eh, eh? *slinks back under the rock from whence I came*

[aje8]

There's actually a triple 9 build (Arcane, Divine, Psionics) that isn't gesalt but it's pretty cheesy..... it used both Beholder Mage AND Ur-Presit.

Also, that Gesalt is pretty illegal because you're A. Not supposed to take dual-progresion classes and B. Not to take 2 prestige classes at once.

[Myou]

There's actually a triple 9 build (Arcane, Divine, Psionics) that isn't gesalt but it's pretty cheesy..... it used both Beholder Mage AND Ur-Presit.

What were they thinking when they made Ur-Priest? 9th level spells in ten levels....

[FMArthur]

You only need 9 levels of it to get 9th level spells.

[Bang]

Is there another vanilla Arcane/Divine class like Mystic Theurge, with generic* requirements like Mystic Theurge, but which advances spells known?

*None of this 'Trackless Step' or 'Evasion/Bardic Knowledge/Eleventy bajillion skills' nonsense.

[kamikasei]

Is there another vanilla Arcane/Divine class like Mystic Theurge, with generic* requirements like Mystic Theurge, but which advances spells known?

What do you mean? Any "+1 to existing spellcasting class" PrC should advance spells known for a spontaneous caster. Are you talking about the wizard's two free spells per level?

[Bang]

What do you mean? Any "+1 to existing spellcasting class" PrC should advance spells known for a spontaneous caster. Are you talking about the wizard's two free spells per level?

The DMG hybrids don't advance spells known, only spells per day (Compare the 'Spells Per Day' entries of the Mystic Theurge, Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster to the 'Spells Per Day/Spells Known" entries of the Archmage and Loremaster).

This is a huge stumbling block for my Demonbinder and Sublime Chord builds.
I guess I could just overload them with metamagic...

[infinitypanda]

By RAW, they do only advance spells per day and caster level and nothing else, but I've never met a DM who wouldn't also give you spells known. That would just be silly.

[Sophismata]

They are supposed to advance both, it's just that Wizards (the default assumption) don't care about 'spells known'.

[kamikasei]

Oh, right, that. I'm not sure I've ever heard of that being enforced.

[Bang]

They are supposed to advance both, it's just that Wizards (the default assumption) don't care about 'spells known'.

If that were the case, Archmage and Loremaster should follow suit.

If we're ignoring rules, I'm not sure what the point of any of this is.

[Myou]

If that were the case, Archmage and Loremaster should follow suit.

If we're ignoring rules, I'm not sure what the point of any of this is.

Most people interpret it as an oversight. Lazy wording.

[Kobold-Bard]

If that were the case, Archmage and Loremaster should follow suit.

If we're ignoring rules, I'm not sure what the point of any of this is.

If you feel obligated to prevent PrC's from advancing Spells known because that's RAW how it's written then more power to you. Personally I think that is an insane rule and must have been an oversight.

[Bang]

Personally I think that is an insane rule and must have been an oversight.

If there weren't a pattern of dual progression classes neglecting spells known and singluarly casting-focused classes gaining them, I'd agree. (Also, the two different entries indicate that there wasn't a cut-and-paste error; the relevant portion was deliberately added or removed)

As it is, using MT to advance Sublime Chord spells known has no more RAW backing than using MT to advance Maneuvers.

Nobody on these forums know anyone else's house rules. If there is any common ground for discussion, it is in RAW.

--Edit--
Anyway, what I was looking for was a class that skirted this issue.
Does anyone have an easily-available alternate to Mystic Theurge for Arcane/Divine casting?

Particularly one to practically progress Ur-Priest alongside Demonbinder or Sublime Chord.

[Starbuck_II]

If you feel obligated to prevent PrC's from advancing Spells known because that's RAW how it's written then more power to you. Personally I think that is an insane rule and must have been an oversight.

It only hurts Sorc/Bards. They are the ones that get Known limited by spell progression.

[Ecalsneerg]

Nobody on these forums know anyone else's house rules. If there is any common ground for discussion, it is in RAW.

Up to a certain point. I mean, by RAW, Monks aren't proficient in their unarmed strikes, but, like this spells known issue, nobody will ever enforce it.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Most example NPCs using the DMG prestige classes do have advanced spells known. However, given the history of NPC stat blocks, that might not be any evidence...

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

sigh. I made one that succeeds (full cleric, wizard, psion progressions). Mind you its hard and requires capitalism from a party member or NPC.

I posted it on BG and 339 but no one cares. yawn

[Myou]

sigh. I made one that succeeds (full cleric, wizard, psion progressions). Mind you its hard and requires capitalism from a party member or NPC.

I posted it on BG and 339 but no one cares. yawn

Well I care. That's why I made the thread.

Link?

[sofawall]

If there weren't a pattern of dual progression classes neglecting spells known and singluarly casting-focused classes gaining them, I'd agree. (Also, the two different entries indicate that there wasn't a cut-and-paste error; the relevant portion was deliberately added or removed)

As it is, using MT to advance Sublime Chord spells known has no more RAW backing than using MT to advance Maneuvers.

Nobody on these forums know anyone else's house rules. If there is any common ground for discussion, it is in RAW.

--Edit--
Anyway, what I was looking for was a class that skirted this issue.
Does anyone have an easily-available alternate to Mystic Theurge for Arcane/Divine casting?

Particularly one to practically progress Ur-Priest alongside Demonbinder or Sublime Chord.

Or, alternatively, different designers were working on different classes, and one, in making all his classes, forgot to write some of it in.

[Wings of Peace]

Couldn't find it on the forums but google had it cached, The Ultimate Multi-Threat does pretty well for itself as a non-gestalt.

[Temet Nosce]

Well, I've done a 9/9/9/9 Gestalt with Psionics, Manuevers, Arcane, and Divine. Wasn't legal though since I used dual advancement PrCs. You can also do a pretty easy 9/9/9 for Psionics, Arcane, and Divine by using Erudite (with Spell to Power)/Ur-Priest/Psychic Theurge (Spell to Power lets the Erudite get access to arcane spells).