Comprehensive list of how epic casting is broken

[taltamir]

Lets make a comprehensive list of exactly how epic casting is broken.
Examples:
1. create a demiplane where you are immune to attack, even from gods.
2,3,4. use origin of species, permanent summon, or permanent transform to create a legion of followers... preferably with their own casting abilities which will then be used to mitigate your future spells (giving arbitrarily high mitigation factors).
5. Make all your epic spells DC0, making them cost 0gp, 0xp, and 1 day to research.
6. Permanently fortify yourself with an arbitrarily high bonus to AC of various kinds, SR, all saves, HP, and all 6 primary attributes. using your legion of followers contributing spells slots.

More are welcome. lets tear this book a new.

[Masaioh]

Most or all of this is subject to DM ruling. Especially the demiplane blocking off gods and the hordes of casters mitigating your spells.

[Yuki Akuma]

"The DM can fix it" is not avalid argument against anything in D&D being broken. Yes, the DM can houserule things however he likes. Does this have any relevance on the actual rules as we discuss them in a non-game scenario?

No.

[quick_comment]

It is trivial to get infinite mitigitation. This lets you do anything that your GM will put a number on.

Wizard: Hey, GM was is the ad-hoc DC for a kill to instantly snuff out the life of all the gods and give me their divine ranks?

DM: *Laughs*. Ten billion

Wizard: Ok, thats only 600 million duplicates or so. Takes me about 20 years or so to get enough clones. I win?

[Masaioh]

"The DM can fix it" is not avalid argument against anything in D&D being broken. Yes, the DM can houserule things however he likes. Does this have any relevance on the actual rules as we discuss them in a non-game scenario?

No.

What other scenarios are there? What is the point in discussing a theory if there is so little likelihood of it playing out in reality?

[taltamir]

The rules are so broken that the DM has to rewrite them from scratch.
If the DM starts placing restrictions, he is just crippling the casters who are forced to use a stupid and nonfunctional system.
Besides which, he is playing by houserules...

The question wasn't "help me break the current game I am playing". It was list the ways in which the RAW is broken. And unlike punpun, doesn't require the DM to allow a bunch of NON CORE insane abilities. This is as core as you get, it is the Epic Handbook.

The clone idea is interesting... which seeds does it use? cloning yourself sounds better than creating your own archons.

[Yuki Akuma]

"Discussing the rules-as-written on a forum where it is customary to ignore house rules because that just gets in the way of discussion" sounds like a good non-game scenario to me.

Just throwing that out there.

The point of discussing theory is because some people find it enjoyable! I know, it's shocking to discover people actually have different interests than you, isn't it?

We are aware that none of this would be allowed in any sensible game not based around horrible rules abuse. We get it. There's no need to point it out to us. Sometimes we just want to bend the rules as far as they'll go just to see what shape they're in when we let go.

[Masaioh]

"Discussing the rules-as-written on a forum where it is customary to ignore house rules because that just gets in the way of discussion" sounds like a good non-game scenario to me.

Just throwing that out there.

The point of discussing theory is because some people find it enjoyable! I know, it's shocking to discover people actually have different interests than you, isn't it?

We are aware that none of this would be allowed in any sensible game not based around horrible rules abuse. We get it. There's no need to point it out to us. Sometimes we just want to bend the rules as far as they'll go just to see what shape they're in when we let go.

[facepalm] I still would rather work on a character build or mechanic that would see use in a game.

It seems whenever I enter a thread I derail it into a flame war because I am used to playing DnD so differently.

If we want to bend the rules, why stick to core? We're looking for loopholes that weren't meant to be found in the first place, right? Non-core, or even third-party books are still meant to be used in the same game. When I work with game mechanics, I prefer to use the really obscure books or even homebrew I find on the internet, but I still try to playtest the results if possible.

[taltamir]

[facepalm] I still would rather work on a character build or mechanic that would see use in a game.

It seems whenever I enter a thread I derail it into a flame war because I am used to playing DnD so differently.

Um, NO. We are here in a thread titled "Comprehensive list of how epic casting is broken"
Also read the first post.

You are not "playing it differently"... not a SINGLE ONE OF US will play with those stupid retarded rules. you just decided for an arbitrary reason to come into a discussion about how a particular RAW mechanic is broken and insist that it doesn't matter since any DM will house rule it anyways, which is obvious and totally irrelevant.

If we want to bend the rules, why stick to core? We're looking for loopholes that weren't meant to be found in the first place, right? Non-core, or even third-party books are still meant to be used in the same game. When I work with game mechanics, I prefer to use the really obscure books or even homebrew I find on the internet, but I still try to playtest the results if possible.

We are NOT bending the rules, they wrote the rules so badly that no bending is NEEDED, the rules AS WRITTEN are utterly stupid and are completely broken, thats the point. Bending NOT REQUIRED.

[Yuki Akuma]

Why does what you prefer have any bearing on this thread? It isn't relevant to the discussion at all. If you don't want to contribute, could you please let everyone else who does want to contribute do so in peace?

[Zeta Kai]

It is trivial to get infinite mitigitation. This lets you do anything that your GM will put a number on.

Wizard: Hey, GM was is the ad-hoc DC for a kill to instantly snuff out the life of all the gods and give me their divine ranks?

DM: *Laughs*. Ten billion

Wizard: Ok, thats only 600 million duplicates or so. Takes me about 20 years or so to get enough clones. I win?

DM: *Laughs*. That means I have 20 years to try & kill you. Don't bother working on the clones; you're already dead. I win.

[Milskidasith]

[facepalm]
It seems whenever I enter a thread I derail it into a flame war because I am used to playing DnD so differently.

It devolves into a flame war because you misunderstand what the topic is about and tell us all the obvious fact that the DM can fix things, and then when it is pointed out that your post isn't really relevant to the discussion, you make another post about how you get similar responses to other posts you make.

Basically, he problem is that you seem to consistently make posts that say "The DM can fix it" or "it wouldn't happen in a real game so it doesn't matter" in topics that are, quite obviously, pure theory, and you act indignant when it is pointed out everybody knows what you are saying so your posts are basically irrelevant.

[taltamir]

DM: *Laughs*. That means I have 20 years to try & kill you. Don't bother working on the clones; you're already dead. I win.

assuming you inform everyone of your intent to cast such a spell instead of just making clones for 20 years and THEN doing that...
If you decide hoarding clones for an arbitrarily long time is a sign of wrongdoing and thus must be punishable by killing, than... by that logic any epic casting is insta gibbed by the DM.

Not to mention that by the RAW you are practically immune to anything in your own demiplane.

[Yuki Akuma]

DM: *Laughs*. That means I have 20 years to try & kill you. Don't bother working on the clones; you're already dead. I win.

How do you kill an epic wizard? Honestly? Other than by DM fiat, because that's simply arbitrary and unfair.

With very little preparation, an epic spellcaster can become immune to basically anything for absolutely no cost to himself.

[Lysander]

Here's how it's broken:

You can raise an unlimited number of tropical islands, quickly cornering the tourism business.

[Masaioh]

I admit that I misunderstood the topic. I'm not used to 'pure theory' in a game where there is such a thing as 'rule zero' and everyone is pretty much expected to make their own interpretation of the rules and wording for the sake of practicality.

One of my personal favorites when it comes to abusing mitigation is to make backlash damage on a permanent, but dismissible, shapeshift spell that turns the caster into a creature with fast healing or even regeneration, such as a hydra or devil. The backlash damage occurs every round for the rest of the spells duration, but who cares?

EDIT: The island post above me made me laugh.

[taltamir]

those sound like rule bending to me.
This isn't ENTIRELY pure theory... because they are so INTEGRAL to the rules. Either the DM micromanages every single minute aspect of epic casting per the RAW. Or he uses rule 0 to toss the whole mess out and get some sensible rules instead.

[Gralamin]

How do you kill an epic wizard? Honestly? Other than by DM fiat, because that's simply arbitrary and unfair.

With very little preparation, an epic spellcaster can become immune to basically anything for absolutely no cost to himself.

I'd use:
Vecna knows your trying to kill him. He kills you, since he's been an epic mage for a lot longer.

[Masaioh]

Who is Vecna? Greyhawk NPC?

@taltamir: Exactly. My group goes back and forth between those two methods depending on how minute of a detail they are changing. I find it a challenge to homebrew something so complex and in-depth, and it is rewarding when I can make something like that playable.

[Sir_Elderberry]

Who is Vecna? Greyhawk NPC?

Greyhawk god of magic, secrets, and lies.

[quick_comment]

Actually, the 20 years is way, way too long. Once you have a spell that creates enough duplicates to let you cast a permanent duplicate spell, you start getting exponential, not linear growth, because your shadow-duplicates can research their own duplication spells.

[taltamir]

I'd use:
Vecna knows your trying to kill him. He kills you, since he's been an epic mage for a lot longer.

how does he know that and how does he enter your demiplane to kill you?

besides... first epic spell you cast should be on yourself... "i would be unable to desire to perform any act which is not currently within my powers to perform".

Aka, you will only be able to want to kill him when you already have the power to.

[quick_comment]

how does he know that and how does he enter your demiplane to kill you?

As god of secrets, he knows all secrets. The solution is to tell your plan your cohort, so its not a secret anymore.

[seedjar]

As god of secrets, he knows all secrets. The solution is to tell your plan your cohort, so its not a secret anymore.

LOL.
Here's a slightly off-topic question; if epic casting weren't kind of broken, would it be able to do the things we would want (expect?) it to do? The whole "D&D magic is broken" idea reminds me a lot of Gödel's incompleteness theorem. If it weren't broken, it wouldn't be D&D. *warm fuzzy feeling*
I think #1 on that list should be: You can construct any spell you can imagine. It doesn't especially matter what the epic casting rules require to use said arbitrary spell, because chances are, if your first homemade spell is somehow inaccessible, you can come up with a second one to bring it within your sphere of ability.
~Joe

[quick_comment]

Its a design choice. Do you want epic characters to be as small gods? Then epic needs to be breakable. Do you want your epic characters to be "merely" the sort of people who can fight off a whole army? Then epic needs to be very unbreakable.

[taltamir]

LOL.
Here's a slightly off-topic question; if epic casting weren't kind of broken, would it be able to do the things we would want (expect?) it to do? The whole "D&D magic is broken" idea reminds me a lot of Gödel's incompleteness theorem. If it weren't broken, it wouldn't be D&D. *warm fuzzy feeling*
I think #1 on that list should be: You can construct any spell you can imagine. It doesn't especially matter what the epic casting rules require to use said arbitrary spell, because chances are, if your first homemade spell is somehow inaccessible, you can come up with a second one to bring it within your sphere of ability.
~Joe

You can design any spell you can imagine ANYWAYS... the epic rules do not actually contribute anything because there are only two dozen or so seeds with very specific actions. So to make any spell from the epic rules you need hand waving and ad hoc rulings. thus making the whole system pointless, as the seed stacking rules and cost decreasing rules actually make it far far worse then just making up a spell and picking a "level" for it based on what you think it should do (aka, non epic spell design).

Even the EXAMPLE spells given all have:
1. Ad hoc DC adjustments
2. Ad hoc price changes (example, force XP or Gold costs for certain spells)

[arguskos]

And this thread is comprehensive proof of why I hate the epic rules.

As for how to break it, I have little to nothing to contribute, since why bother? It's been explained already. The epic rules are a mockery of game design, on par with the worst RPG games made.

[Myou]

And this thread is comprehensive proof of why I hate the epic rules.

As for how to break it, I have little to nothing to contribute, since why bother? It's been explained already. The epic rules are a mockery of game design, on par with the worst RPG games made.

You've clearly never read F.A.T.A.L.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

He said RPG game. That, my friend, is a lovecraftian abomination. There is a little touch of a difference.

Call of Cthulhu, btw, is not a lovecraftian abomination, ironically enough.

[arguskos]

You've clearly never read F.A.T.A.L.

Yes, actually, I have. I even sat down and tried to take it seriously. I was physically incapable of doing so.