[3.5]Build Unarmed Swardsage/mot9

[Zaerdna]

I have just picked up Tomb of Battle and have not really got the fine points.
Is there anyone that could help me out with a build and some insight on what to think about.

In a team of Cleric+Divine Oracle, Warlock and Skill-Money Rouge in Hellboy kind of scenario. There is a need for some fighting skill and I am looking into a unarmed Swardsage and maybe Master of the Nine. The grope has not been exposed to ToB and this will be there introduction.

I'm thinking of the old master from Kill Bill: Pai Mei
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2382076160/nm0514904

Any books, lv 13
Stats 17,17,13,13,12,12

Do I need strength (ontop of Shadow blade) and Intelligence (for skills)?

Weapon Finesse, Shadow Blade, Adaptive style, Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike, Improved Natural attack looks good.

Is there some nice race or template to start with and will it be worth going into Master of the Nine? What disciplines rocks and is there any item that I should pick up.

[Eldariel]

Master of the Nine is strong; whether it's worth it is something you'll have to decide for yourself though. The feat costs to enter are immense. It gets some swell abilities though. I especially love Counter Stance to break action economy.


As for your character:
If you go Shadow Blade, you don't need Str. That's the whole point of the feat (plus Weapon Finesse obv). That said, your worst stat is a 12 so mite as well toss the 12 to Str.

Overall, those stats are a bit poor for...well, any character outside Druids 'cause the lack of variety means you can't emphasize different points, meaning you don't have real strong areas in the character. An SS wants Dex, Con & Wis; out of those you can really only get 2 great scores. Good news is that SS likes Int, Str and even Cha (skill-wise) so the high "low scores" do help some.


As for Race, Snow Elf (+Dex, -Cha) is a good option as is any small creature, particularly high Dex ones. I'd probably go Whisper Gnome to be honest; your points are perfect for them (leaving you with 11 Cha & Str to use their racial spell-likes & not be encumbered, while getting 19 Dex/14 Con/17 Wis/12 Int). Strongheart Halfling is the other obvious choice, but speed penalty hurts. Human is always good.

[Diamondeye]

There's a suggestion in there for unarmed swordsage that gives you monk unarmed strike progression and Improved Unarmed Strike as a binus feat in exchange for losing your armor proficiency. I suggest getting the DM to allow that varient or something close to it.

As for your stats my recommendation would be 17 DEX and WIS, 13 STR and CON, 12 INT and CHA. It might be worth it to see if you can get your CHA drpped to 10 and either STR or CON up to 14. This way you won't have a "leftover" ability boost point at level 20, nor will you have to wait to 16 to boost all your odd scores to even... and of course STR and CON are better for you anyhow. I recommend CON since you get most of your damage from manuevers and you need the HP and Fort save boost more.

Improved Initiative is a good addition to your list of feats, and you need it for Mot9 anyhow. You've already got adaptive style which you need too. If you want to go into that PrC, you'll also need to get Blind-Fight and Dodge. If you're human and can talk the DM into allowing the unarmed varient, you can have all your feats by level 6 with no flaws and get Mot9 at level 7, the earliest possible based on its skill requirements. Try to boost the discipline skills of disciplines that require skill rolls more often, such as Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw.

Improved and Superior unarmed striek and natural attack will have to wait tiill later if you go for that PrC.

Views are mixed on Mot9; personally I like it despite the difficulty of qualifying. In games I run and play in we allow maneuver swap-out at even PrC levels as well as base class levels; see if you can get that as well. With Mot9 it's also feasible to hold off on qualifying till later, say taking the first level at 13 or 16 so that the extra maneuvers and stances you get are higher level ones.

Also, as the previous poster stated, snow elf is a good choice. You take a -2 to CHA which you don't need and will still be a 10 anyhow and can boost DEX to 19 to start. At level 4 boost that to 20 and at level 8 boost WIS to 18. You'll have +9 to AC from abilities alone at that point. This means you can't qualify for Mot9 until at least level 12, level 15 if you take Shadow Blade (unless you get extra feats with flaws), but that's really OK since waiting till later to get Mot9 has its advantages as well.

[Mongoose87]

You could always dip the first two levels of fighter to get a couple quick feats, some BaB and HP.

[woodenbandman]

A good dip for any Master of Nine build is Cobra Strike Monk1. Dodge and Improved Unarmed Strike in one level. Unarmed Swordsage makes this dip less attractive, but in any armed Mo9 build, Cobra Strike Monk 1 (or 2 for evasion) is an attractive choice.

My favorite Master of 9 build is Crusader3(Space it out for Thicket of Blades on the second level)/Cobra Strike Monk1/Swordsage7 then alternate Master of 9 with swordsage levels so that you can swap your old maneuvers. That will take you to level 11. I personally don't mind the Swordsage recovery mechanic, because you have 9 or 10 maneuvers readied anyway.

[Eldariel]

Oh, as for best Disciplines, it would be something like:

Tier 1:
Devoted Spirit
Diamond Mind
White Raven
Tiger Claw

Tier 2:
Iron Heart
Shadow Hand
Setting Sun

Tier 3:
Desert Wind
Stone Dragon


Hard to rate as they're all fairly balanced, but Stone Dragon and Desert Wind I feel are clearly the worst and the Tier 2 ones lack some of the more impressive offensive maneuvers.

[Diamondeye]

I wouldn't put much stock in ratings of the disciplines.

Dipping a couple levels of fighter or monk isn't a bad idea, but don't do it at level 1, especially as a fighter. You lose a lot of skill points that way and 2 more hit points isn't nearly as useful as 16 more skill points. Also, if you're not human and the DM uses multiclass EXP penalties, dipping can be problematic.

Another thing to not is that, because of the math of BAB, unless you dip at least 4 levels in fighter you get no BAB advantage except at certain levels.

I also wouldn't put too much stock in ratings of the disciplines relative to each other. All of them definitely have useful stuff.

[Sinfire Titan]

Oh, as for best Disciplines, it would be something like:

Tier 1:
Devoted Spirit
Diamond Mind
White Raven
Tiger Claw

Tier 2:
Iron Heart
Shadow Hand
Setting Sun

Tier 3:
Desert Wind
Stone Dragon


Hard to rate as they're all fairly balanced, but Stone Dragon and Desert Wind I feel are clearly the worst and the Tier 2 ones lack some of the more impressive offensive maneuvers.

Even then, the worst of the two have some really good options, so neglecting them outright isn't exactly recommended.

[Godskook]

A good dip for any Master of Nine build is Cobra Strike Monk1. Dodge and Improved Unarmed Strike in one level. Unarmed Swordsage makes this dip less attractive, but in any armed Mo9 build, Cobra Strike Monk 1 (or 2 for evasion) is an attractive choice.

For a dex focused character, sleeping tiger is also a good monk dip, giving weapon finesse and improved initiative. Also, Desert Wind Dodge > Dodge, hands down.

@OP, you'll eventually want to pick up Aura of Chaos as a stance if you can. Also ask your DM about his particular reading on how much like an unarmed strike gauntlets are in his world(the RAW says they're unarmed strikes except they deal lethal damage, so arguable, you could synergize a good pair of gauntlets with your unarmed damage). You'll also want to space out or delay your Mo9 levels since primarily, you'll be using them to pick up non-swordsage maneuvers. Don't bother taking a level in Mo9 if you can't pack each and every maneuver and stance with goodies from the restricted disciplines(that is the whole point of it, btw).

[lsfreak]

I pretty much agree with Eldariel about the disciplines' power. Worth pointing out, however, that Iron Heart maneuvers are a prerequisite for one of the more powerful feats (Stormguard Warrior) that also fit in nicely, I think, with an unarmed combatant.

[Wings of Peace]

If you want lots of raw melee damage I'd get as much swordsage as possible and find some way to enchant your fists with Greater Mighty Wallop with as high a CR as possible. Another big thing worth looking into is different synergies between your maneuvers and stances. Some perfect examples being found here. Ctr-F and look for Sinshadow, the enlightened prodigal and glance over his strategies.

Combo's like the ones Sinshadow uses can really flush out a character even some at lower levels. Just remember that it's a full round action for you to regain used maneuvers so if you're comboing you should plan your combat style to allow some amount of recharge time if you don't think your enemies will be dead before you complete all your tricks.

The other big thing you need to remember is that as an Unarmed Swordsage is that unless your dm is nice you're not going to be gaining the increase in unarmed damage any time other than Swordsage Levels or with a kind (And not at all unrealistic) interpretation that classes that advance the Monk's unarmed damage also advance the Swordsages the same way. That is assuming your unarmed damage will be a heavy part of the build. This will mostly matter if you're doing something like Greater Mighty Wallop on your fists though. Which at 2d10 and full Greater Mighty Wallop effect turns those 2d10s into 12d8s.

[Zaerdna]

Nice. Thank you all for the kind and fast answer.

It looks like
Dex 17 /Con 13/ Wis 17/ Int 13 / Str 12 /Cha 12

and Whisper Gnome looks cool. Is there some template that I could/should take or just opt for as much swardsage as possible. The unarmed variant is what I will be using.


It seem like MoT9 is used to cherry pick things you need on the way up, is it complicated to know what to pick, or do I just shop around.

The characters will start at 13 and I do not expect the mini-campain to run for more then 2-3 levels.

What about the druid spell that Magic fang?

Is it worth going for the unarmed damage feat kit and what feat?

What feats can a actually get before lv 13?

[Zaerdna]

Would Greater Mighty Wallop stack with Improved Natural Attack and is there a cap on Monk belt, Monk's Tattoo and sSuperior Unarmed Strike?

What can and should I get for my starting money at 13lv?

[Eldariel]

Nice. Thank you all for the kind and fast answer.

It looks like
Dex 17 /Con 13/ Wis 17/ Int 13 / Str 12 /Cha 12

and Whisper Gnome looks cool. Is there some template that I could/should take or just opt for as much swardsage as possible. The unarmed variant is what I will be using.

Templates are almost always poor since Level Adjustment sucks; unless you're pimping out a specific aspect of the character, go with class levels. Templated characters are weird anyways.

It seem like MoT9 is used to cherry pick things you need on the way up, is it complicated to know what to pick, or do I just shop around.

The good news is that you can't really make wrong choices with ToB. While some are stronger than others, you'll end up with great options either way. Though I'd definitely pick up Greater Divine Surge when you can; I love that maneuver for when things are going south fast and you need to kill 'em for real.

What about the druid spell that Magic fang?

Get Greater Magic Fang at CL 20 permanencied on your ASAP unless you have a caster in the party capable of casting it (or Greater Magic Weapon; due to Monk's Unarmed Strike's wonkiness, either works) for you. Also, get a Necklace of Natural Attacks [Savage Species] to pump your unarmed strike with special abilities (like the Martial School-abilities, maybe Metalline to get past Damage Reduction, maybe Valorous if you plan on using charges, etc.).

Is it worth going for the unarmed damage feat kit and what feat?

I don't understand the question. If you're an unarmed swordsage though, yeah, pimping out your unarmed damage is obviously worth it since that's the thing you've got going on for it.

What feats can a actually get before lv 13?

Uh, you kinda need to burn 'em all on getting into Mot9.


Anyways, as for stackings:
- Ask DM. Always ask DM. Not all DMs rule as per RAW.
- Monk Level Boosters don't stack by default. However, asking DM to stack them might just work.
- Greater Mighty Wallop and Improved Natural Attack...sorta can stack. However, if you can get CL 20 Greater Mighty Wallop, you automatically get Colossal weapons and Greater Mighty Wallop can't exceed Colossal size so then you're outta luck. And they sorta don't too. Ask DM.

[ex cathedra]

Yes, yes, yes, and yes.

Improved natural attack + Greater Mighty Wallop stack. You apply them in the most beneficial order, and therefor you can get your effective damage size to 1 size larger than Greater Mighty Wallop's cap.

Unarmed damage caps at 20 effective monk levels. iirc. Monk's Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike give you a +9. Ignore monk's tattoo, it's one of the most outrageously priced items available.

See if your DM will allow you to enchant gauntlets and use your unarmed strike damage with them.

Get a monk's belt, some +Con and perhaps some +str/dex. If you don't have nice people in your party who can buff you, grab boots of speed. Haste does you wonders. If no one will cast Superior Resistance on you, get a 25k cloak of resistance +5.

Take Improved Natural Attack, Superior Unarmed Strike, and Snap Kick. Those are, sadly enough, three of the best monk feats. I would suggest Adaptive Style, but it's a prerequisite for Mot9 anyways.

[jiriku]

because of the large damage bonus a Mot9 gets when executing maneuvers, i'm a big fan of the diamond mind manuevers that give you a multiplier to your damage. They combine especially well with the desert wind boosts that give you xd6+IL to damage. It's not difficult to get a combined damage total of 100-175 with this strike+boost combo.

[Zaerdna]

At Lv 13 it seem that i will have 5 feats and it looks like I will not get Mot9.

But I still have 6 good options.

Improved Natural Attack, Superior Unarmed Strike, and Snap Kick
Weapon Finesse, Shadow Blade, Adaptive style.


At lv 13 a monk belt would max out the development 23+9, would I not loose some damage is I pick a small character?

[Eldariel]

Unarmed damage caps at 20 effective monk levels. iirc. Monk's Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike give you a +9. Ignore monk's tattoo, it's one of the most outrageously priced items available.

By RAW, they don't stack. Monk's Belt is worded as "a Monk of 5 levels higher", same as Superior Unarmed Strike so they both are based on your actual Monk-level, which doesn't change making them overlap. But as I said, ask DM.

[Sinfire Titan]

By RAW, they don't stack. Monk's Belt is worded as "a Monk of 5 levels higher", same as Superior Unarmed Strike so they both are based on your actual Monk-level, which doesn't change making them overlap. But as I said, ask DM.

Stacking only applies to rolls and checks, not to a static effect such as level.

[Zaerdna]

Let's not go into that old discussion. I can live with being a lv 17 monk also and save a feat.

[Sinfire Titan]

Regardless, they both apply to your base level so while the word "stack" isn't the reason they don't stack in the traditional D&D sense, in the English meaning of the word it's still accurate. They are both worded in a fashion that they are applied to the same number and don't notice each others' existence. It's the same reason you can't stack Monkey Grip & Strongarm Bracers on a Medium creature to wield a Huge weapon with the same handedness as the Medium version.

But it isn't a number. Size category can be measured by a number (one size category larger than your current size category), but your unarmed strike damage can't because it is a variable number (Xd8).

It's like saying Practiced Spellcaster doesn't stack with the Orange Ioun Stone. They are separate sources, they have a similar effect in different values, and they've been accepted as stacking. Same circumstance, different effect. Monk levels measure your Unarmed damage size, caster level determines your Fireball's damage dice.

If SuS and Monk's Belts don't stack, then the same should be applied to the Orange Ioun Stone and Practiced Spellcaster.

[Zaerdna]

Wouldn't being a gnome just waste Improved natural attack?

I know that there is an age old discussion about stacking of monk levels, I'll just ask for a ruling from my GM.

[Sinfire Titan]

Your Monk-level can be measured by a number and it's what's affected. Note how caster level increases just say the CL increases by 1, while Monk's Belt states your effective Monk-level for determining Unarmed Strike Damage is 5 higher (same as SUS).

But that's a double standard. Note that everything that affects CL usually states it doesn't affect your spells/day or spells/known. Its the same thing in a different suit.

SuS says +4 to Monk level, BTW. And Practiced Spellcaster is +4. Does Practiced Spellcaster not stack with Divination Spellpower (Unseen Seer's class feature) if the situation allows it? Why is it that the same type of effect (an increase to effective level for determining an ability) not stack in one case, but does in the other? What makes the two different?

[Douglas]

Regardless, they both apply to your base level

Got a reference for that?

Both of them make your Monk level some number of levels "higher". Not "higher than your base/actual level", just "higher". The default meaning for that in the English language unless context clearly indicates otherwise is "higher than without this", which would make them stack.

[Sinfire Titan]

Taking it to the other thread.

Edit: Beat you to the new thread.

[Zaerdna]

In terms of being 13lv.

I have some 110K I think and you have given me a long shoping list...


Monk belt 40k
Necklace of Natural Attacks
gauntlets?
How much Greater Mighty Wallop can I afford?

[quick_comment]

Dont forget to nab stance of alacrity. With stance of alacrity and counter-stance, you can initiate a counter, shift into stance of alacrity and then then initiate a 2nd counter and shift back to your original stance.

[Sinfire Titan]

In terms of being 13lv.

I have some 110K I think and you have given me a long shoping list...


Monk belt 40k
Necklace of Natural Attacks
gauntlets?
How much Greater Mighty Wallop can I afford?

GMW is a 3rd level spell from Races of the Dragon, right? A CL 20 wand should cost around 22k or so. If you just use regular MW (a 1st level spell last I checked), an Eternal Wand or 4 should be more than enough.

[Zaerdna]

I think I have about 110k to shop with.

Monk belt 40k
Wand of Greater Mighty Wallop 22k (can I use that?)
Greater Magic Fang gloves ?

What more?


I see with the W-Gnome we have a Yoda kind of character...

[Godskook]

Necklace of Natural Attacks
gauntlets?

It is either one or the other, not both, I believe, unless you can run some shenanigans about upping the bonuses for cheaper costs(but being hit with a book might be in order there). Also, only go with the gauntlets if your DM strictly reads 'is otherwise considered an unarmed attack', and even then, your choice.