Dorjes and Augmentation

[CheshireCatAW]

Ok, base price for a Dorje is 375 + level of the power + manifester level. How do you treat Augmenting powers in Dorjes? How do you price powers that require 1PP to double their effects (Vigor) with powers that require more, like Empathy that could take 1 and/or 2 points to augment. Or Defensive Precognition, which can take 3 or 6 pp worth of Augmentation.

Specifically, I'm wondering if, as a Psionic Artificer, I am capable of making Augmented Power Dorjes and how I would figure out the price for them.

[quick_comment]

Dorjes are augmented to the maximum possible for their manifester level.

[Yuki Akuma]

Dorjes work the same way as psi-like abilities - they're auto-augmented.

It's the same for basically every other psionic item that manifests a power, too.

[PinkysBrain]

With one caveat ...

The manifester level of a dorje cannot be more than five higher than the minimum manifester level to use the power it contains.

(This was likely done in recognition of the fact that augmented powers are more like higher level spells, so the pricing formula breaks down at high augmentation levels.)

[CheshireCatAW]

Ok, I think I understand then. So, a manifester level(ML) 1 dorje of Vigor would, in fact, give 10 temporary hps for 1 minute, a ML 3 wand of Defensive Precognition would give you +2 insight bonus to AC for 3 minutes and a ML 4 dorje of Force Screen would give you +8 AC for 4 minutes. Right?

How about power stones and tattoo's? Are they also auto-augmented?

[Stegyre]

Ok, I think I understand then. So, a manifester level(ML) 1 dorje of Vigor would, in fact, give 10 temporary hps for 1 minute, a ML 3 wand of Defensive Precognition would give you +2 insight bonus to AC for 3 minutes and a ML 4 dorje of Force Screen would give you +8 AC for 4 minutes. Right?

No. An ML 1 Vigor dorje will only give you 5 thp.
An ML 3 Defensive Precognition dorje would get you nothing, as augmenting that power requires at least 3 additional power points (in addition to the 1 minimum required to manifest it.
An ML 4 Force Screen dorje likewise gets you nothing, as that power requires a minimum of 4 additional power points.

In every case, to figure the actual augmentation of the dorje apply a total number of power points equal to the ML. For psionic items with charges, that's really what the ML stands for: the number of power points used.

Thus, to get 10 thp from Vigor, you need an ML 2 dorje, because if you were manifesting Vigor, that is how many power points you would have to use to get 10 thp, etc.

[CheshireCatAW]

AHA! The pieces have clicked into place. Thank you, good sir, I appreciate the help.

[quick_comment]

With one caveat ...



(This was likely done in recognition of the fact that augmented powers are more like higher level spells, so the pricing formula breaks down at high augmentation levels.)

Psionic items should have been priced by pp cost, not ML or PL

[Stegyre]

Psionic items should have been priced by pp cost, not ML or PL

Agreed that this would have been much less confusing. I believe I was reading something just yesterday though that made the point that ML=PP, so this is actually RAW. (I want to say it was XPH or CPsi, but I'm afb and cannot provide a cite.)

[PinkysBrain]

PP is on the whole equal to ML, for charged psionic items ... but that's not the issue. The issue is that PL is still part of the pricing equation, what I assume quick_comment meant is that PP should be the only variable in the pricing equation. So a dorje should cost PP^2*750 gp.

[Stegyre]

PP is on the whole equal to ML, for charged psionic items ... but that's not the issue. The issue is that PL is still part of the pricing equation, what I assume quick_comment meant is that PP should be the only variable in the pricing equation. So a dorje should cost PP^2*750 gp.

Mm, you may be right, but if that is what QC intended, I don't see a reason to make psi-item costs scale quadratically when magic-item costs do not. I would maintain the basic formula of PP * PL * (whatever factor is appropriate for the specific item: 750 for a dorje, 1,800 for command word / command thought, etc.)

I still need to set up that item creation thread I keep thinking about to discuss these sorts of issues in one place.

[RagnaroksChosen]

No. An ML 1 Vigor dorje will only give you 5 thp.
An ML 3 Defensive Precognition dorje would get you nothing, as augmenting that power requires at least 3 additional power points (in addition to the 1 minimum required to manifest it.
An ML 4 Force Screen dorje likewise gets you nothing, as that power requires a minimum of 4 additional power points.

In every case, to figure the actual augmentation of the dorje apply a total number of power points equal to the ML. For psionic items with charges, that's really what the ML stands for: the number of power points used.

Thus, to get 10 thp from Vigor, you need an ML 2 dorje, because if you were manifesting Vigor, that is how many power points you would have to use to get 10 thp, etc.

My understanding of psionics is a little limited but could you not as a first level psion augment vigor by 1 to give you 10 hp(paying 2 pp of course)

[PinkysBrain]

Mm, you may be right, but if that is what QC intended, I don't see a reason to make psi-item costs scale quadratically when magic-item costs do not.

Spells do not scale by caster level in the same way augmented powers scale by manifester level. Augmented powers are often equivalent to higher level spells (higher DCs for instance).

PS. I should have said ((1/2*pp)^2 + pp))*750 gp (with 1/2* rounding down to integers).

[Yuki Akuma]

My understanding of psionics is a little limited but could you not as a first level psion augment vigor by 1 to give you 10 hp(paying 2 pp of course)

No. Not at all. This is incredibly, utterly wrong. Unless you have Overchannel.

Now, a Wilder could do it...

(Hint: you can't spend more PP on a power than your manifester level. Ever. Unless you have Overchannel or are a Wilder.)

[Stegyre]

(Hint: you can't spend more PP on a power than your manifester level. Ever. Unless you have Overchannel or are a Wilder.)

Or to say the same thing with different words: You can never spend more PP on a power than your effective ML. Feats like Overchannel or the Wild Surge class ability give a temporary boost to ML for these purposes.

Spells do not scale by caster level in the same way augmented powers scale by manifester level. Augmented powers are often equivalent to higher level spells (higher DCs for instance).

PS. I should have said ((1/2*pp)^2 + pp))*750 gp (with 1/2* rounding down to integers).

That's a fair observation, although it will also depend upon the power, and I see the reason for your revised formula, but I'm not sure it's quite the best solution.

I really need to start that Item Creation Thread . . .

[RagnaroksChosen]

No. Not at all. This is incredibly, utterly wrong. Unless you have Overchannel.

Now, a Wilder could do it...

(Hint: you can't spend more PP on a power than your manifester level. Ever. Unless you have Overchannel or are a Wilder.)

Ah my bad I thought it was you couldn't augment it more then your level. but its just over all PP spent on the item that's cool.
Thanks though for explaining that. So that does make Wilders better... i figured they just had good PP economy

[Yuki Akuma]

Ah my bad I thought it was you couldn't augment it more then your level. but its just over all PP spent on the item that's cool.
Thanks though for explaining that. So that does make Wilders better... i figured they just had good PP economy

No, Wilders are not better.

They are better at augmenting their twelve powers, but the Psion is far more versatile.

[RagnaroksChosen]

No, Wilders are not better.

They are better at augmenting their twelve powers, but the Psion is far more versatile.

I meant for augmenting not versatility...

[Yuki Akuma]

But being able to augment twelve powers very well doesn't make you powerful. Many powerful psionic powers don't even require augmentation!

[RagnaroksChosen]

But being able to augment twelve powers very well doesn't make you powerful. Many powerful psionic powers don't even require augmentation!

I guess that depends on what your definition of power is :)