Optimizing Weakness

[sonofzeal]

Alright, so, I'm an optimizer. I freely admit it; I know the rules, I know what's out there, and I know what works. The problem is, most of the people I game with couldn't tell their Cover from their Concealment if their life depended on it, still take Weapon Focus on every character, and tend to have nervous breakdowns if there's more than two buffs going around at a time. I DM for them when I can, and try to encourage optimization skills, but really what I want to do is play. I can't bring myself to just make a terrible character, and if I play a buffmonkey then people can't keep track of it all. What I need are limits I have to work inside, things I can optimize for that won't break the game and lead to characters that are fun to play.


tl;dr - I'm asking for suggested limits that can be placed on pro veteran players so that they can still optimize but won't overshadow a newbie group.

Examples:
- Must play a tier 5/6 class
- 3d6 organic stats
- DM chooses feats
- Must take Vow of Poverty and/or Peace (overrules alignment if necessary)

....any others?

[RagnaroksChosen]

Alright, so, I'm an optimizer. I freely admit it; I know the rules, I know what's out there, and I know what works. The problem is, most of the people I game with couldn't tell their Cover from their Concealment if their life depended on it, still take Weapon Focus on every character, and tend to have nervous breakdowns if there's more than two buffs going around at a time. I DM for them when I can, and try to encourage optimization skills, but really what I want to do is play. I can't bring myself to just make a terrible character, and if I play a buffmonkey then people can't keep track of it all. What I need are limits I have to work inside, things I can optimize for that won't break the game and lead to characters that are fun to play.


tl;dr - I'm asking for suggested limits that can be placed on pro veteran players so that they can still optimize but won't overshadow a newbie group.

Examples:
- Must play a tier 5/6 class
- 3d6 organic stats
- DM chooses feats
- Must take Vow of Poverty and/or Peace (overrules alignment if necessary)

....any others?

Play a monk?

[Stephen_E]

My system is to coose something silly and sub-optimal and then use your optimising skills to make it decent.

Try a Net and Trident melee build.

Make the highest AC build possible. (I did a theorectical Nixie Blackguard/Hexblade build but my current GM won't allow non-standard races). This build was particuly juicy because it did little but act as a wall that did Stand Still attacks and trashed the saves of any enemy nearby, thus making casters very happy and leaving melee types free to smack attack without getting overshadowed.

Random;y choose one of the weapon style feats from Complete Warrior and make it the complete focus of your character.

Stephen E

[sonofzeal]

Play a monk?

That's fall under "must play a Tier 5/6 class". Any others?

[Zeta Kai]

I don't know if this has ever been said with any degree of serious, but here goes:

TRUENAMER FTW!!!

[Elfin]

As Stephen_E said, it might be good to start with a sub-optimal concept and do the best you can with it.

[sonofzeal]

Indeed, working with an inherently poor concept is right along these lines too. Suggestions appreciated!

[Drothmal]

Playing a caster who can only use low level spells (max level of spell you could actually cast -4). You could still use metamagics, but without taking prestige classes that make them broken

[sonofzeal]

Playing a caster who can only use low level spells (max level of spell you could actually cast -4). You could still use metamagics, but without taking prestige classes that make them broken

That actually gives me an idea - playing a Sor/Wiz, but voluntarily using Adept spellslot progressions (unless the day needs saving).

[RagnaroksChosen]

Playing a caster who can only use low level spells (max level of spell you could actually cast -4). You could still use metamagics, but without taking prestige classes that make them broken

I have to secound this..

Or play a one trick pony... like a Magic missle mage or something/

[Elfin]

Hmm, here are two specific suggestions-
-A blaster sorcerer getting in touch with his draconic side, who takes the Draconic Heritage line of feats.
-A warblade/Mo9 who fights with a bastard sword and unarmed strike, and takes the Wep. Focus line.

Edit: I'd second the idea of voluntarily sucking by not using the resources at your disposal, then if the group needs help pull out the big guns. It might frustrate the DM, though, if you suddenly turn into Batman and decimate the BBEG.

[FMArthur]

Two-weapon-fighting hand crossbow user. Has the potential for large returns but you won't have the feats to power it early without flaws, which I'm assuming most of your group has never even heard of.

[Drothmal]

Play a goblin, a kobolk (not pun pun) or another race that starts below CR1

[Keld Denar]

Do something like a Hexblade/Barbarian debuffer build. Get a decent Cha, max out Intimdate, Hex the hell out of someone, fear em, and trap em in a net. That'll make their ACs so low a blind monk could hit them.

Alternatively, play a Bard, pump up some Inspire Courage, and toss nets. You'll boost the heck out of your allies, debuff a little, and if shiss really gets scary, toss out a Glitterdust or a Grease and keep on rawkin!

[AmberVael]

Here's something I've always wanted to play:

Take a spellcasting class. But instead of focusing on your spells, focus on optimizing them for Reserve feats, and get every single reserve feat you can get your hands on.

[neoseph7]

Alright, so, I'm an optimizer. I freely admit it; I know the rules, I know what's out there, and I know what works. The problem is, most of the people I game with couldn't tell their Cover from their Concealment if their life depended on it, still take Weapon Focus on every character, and tend to have nervous breakdowns if there's more than two buffs going around at a time. I DM for them when I can, and try to encourage optimization skills, but really what I want to do is play. I can't bring myself to just make a terrible character, and if I play a buffmonkey then people can't keep track of it all. What I need are limits I have to work inside, things I can optimize for that won't break the game and lead to characters that are fun to play.


tl;dr - I'm asking for suggested limits that can be placed on pro veteran players so that they can still optimize but won't overshadow a newbie group.

Examples:
- Must play a tier 5/6 class
- 3d6 organic stats
- DM chooses feats
- Must take Vow of Poverty and/or Peace (overrules alignment if necessary)

....any others?

Limit your source material. Keep it core. Let everyone make dire half dragon werebear hexblade/incarnum users or whatnot, and just stick with core. Optimized core will be about as powerful as a normal character from a cheese book.

As a DM to fight cheese, change the game subtly so that you don't know what all the good combinations are anymore, and rediscover optimization ruetines. I highly recomend Gestalt in Conjunction with Magic Recharge Core only for a live game. Even at first level, the game is a lot of fun.

As for general limitations, find a DM that rules lawyers worse than you, and he won't let you take half the stuff that really makes your character really OP.

[Kyeudo]

Limit your source material. Keep it core. Let everyone make dire half dragon werebear hexblade/incarnum users or whatnot, and just stick with core. Optimized core will be about as powerful as a normal character from a cheese book.

As a DM to fight cheese, change the game subtly so that you don't know what all the good combinations are anymore, and rediscover optimization ruetines. I highly recomend Gestalt in Conjunction with Magic Recharge Core only for a live game. Even at first level, the game is a lot of fun.

As for general limitations, find a DM that rules lawyers worse than you, and he won't let you take half the stuff that really makes your character really OP.

{scrubbed} Optimized Core is Batman Wizards and Codzilla. 80% of major broken material comes out of Core. Werecreatures and half-dragons aren't worth their LA. Gestalt is broken no matter how you do it.


My suggestion is play Red Mage from 8-bit theater. Most of the time, don't even cast your spells, because doing so could limit your effectiveness later in the day, and do crazy, nonsensical stuff out of a misguided quest for character power. Then, if necessary, bust out the crazy awesome plans that save the party from certain death. Also, create a cold fusion reactor out of ice.

[AgentPaper]

Be a cleric, and fill every single spell slot with healing spells. No other rules. You can still use domains as normal, which will be your only non-healing spells.

[Myrmex]

Try a sword & board fighter, an archer, or a blaster. With proper optimization, all will function perfectly well in a group that doesn't optimize, and they'll prolly be fun cause they're such classic archetypes.

{scrubbed} Optimized Core is Batman Wizards and Codzilla. 80% of major broken material comes out of Core. Werecreatures and half-dragons aren't worth their LA. Gestalt is broken no matter how you do it.

The C of CoDzilla doesn't really work in Core.

[Gralamin]

Try a sword & board fighter, an archer, or a blaster. With proper optimization, all will function perfectly well in a group that doesn't optimize, and they'll prolly be fun cause they're such classic archetypes.



The C of CoDzilla doesn't really work in Core.

It does, just not as a permanent effect, taking a few rounds of buffing instead. Druid works a lot better in core though, yeah.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Two-weapon-fighting hand crossbow user. Has the potential for large returns but you won't have the feats to power it early without flaws, which I'm assuming most of your group has never even heard of.

Umm....

I made one of these yesterday.

He did 44756 damage in the Test of Spite.


ANYWAY...last time I played, I convinced the DM to have the other characters be geshalt. Then I helped them with their basic builds. It actually worked out fairly well.

[Myrmex]

It does, just not as a permanent effect, taking a few rounds of buffing instead. Druid works a lot better in core though, yeah.

The turns lost to putting personal buffs up means that fighter/rogue have been putting out a lot of damage without using resources. By the time you've got enough spells on you to be competent with the fighter, the fight's halfway over.

Cleric works better as a party buffer/secondary caster (casting dispel, fly-type spells, utility spells like shape stone) in core, in my experience.

[The Glyphstone]

The turns lost to putting personal buffs up means that fighter/rogue have been putting out a lot of damage without using resources. By the time you've got enough spells on you to be competent with the fighter, the fight's halfway over.

Cleric works better as a party buffer/secondary caster (casting dispel, fly-type spells, utility spells like shape stone) in core, in my experience.

Core CoDZilla is a lot less buff-heavy than full CoDZilla. He spends one round buffing, throwing up a Quickened Divine Favor and a Divine Power, then wades into melee and starts beating just as competently as the fighter will. In core, there's no Ubercharger, which means the fighter is unlikely to have done a massive amount of damage in his first round - the rogue will have done more, but that's assuming the enemies can be sneak attacked. With a Rod of Quicken Spell, he can throw in Righteous Might, but that's just icing on the cake - the wizard can just Mass Enlarge Person him and the fighter.

[Umael]

Go for the bizarre race/class combos.

Half-orc sorcerer.
Halfling barbarian.
Goliath bard.

Furthermore, make sure to go gish.

Have your half-orc sorcerer have a high strength and use things like True Strike. Pick up Exotic Weapon Proficiency as soon as you can and take Toughness feats as soon as you can.

Have your halfling barbarian have Strength has his 2nd highest stat, go for a stealth-barbarian concept (you can't see me, now I attack you from surprise!).

As for your Goliath bard... I don't know... have him use two clubs, put all his feats in Two-Weapon Fighting, and put his ranks into Perform (Percussion) and Perform (Rap)...

[sonofzeal]

Limit your source material. Keep it core. Let everyone make dire half dragon werebear hexblade/incarnum users or whatnot, and just stick with core. Optimized core will be about as powerful as a normal character from a cheese book.

As a DM to fight cheese, change the game subtly so that you don't know what all the good combinations are anymore, and rediscover optimization ruetines. I highly recomend Gestalt in Conjunction with Magic Recharge Core only for a live game. Even at first level, the game is a lot of fun.

As for general limitations, find a DM that rules lawyers worse than you, and he won't let you take half the stuff that really makes your character really OP.

As many others have said, Core is actually the worst offender for imbalance.


.....actually, that's an interesting idea - going 100% non-Core! That practically rules out the top five classes (as Archivist, Artificer, and Erudite all crib highly off of Core spell lists). Everything else, there'd be some trouble with feats/races, but it'd be surmountable.

(edit) Or, a Wizard with all non-Core spells. No Greater Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Summon Monster, Polymorph, True Strike, Glitterdust, Mass Enlarge Person, Antimagic Field.... man, that'd be haaaard.

[Temet Nosce]

As many others have said, Core is actually the worst offender for imbalance.


.....actually, that's an interesting idea - going 100% non-Core! That practically rules out the top five classes (as Archivist, Artificer, and Erudite all crib highly off of Core spell lists). Everything else, there'd be some trouble with feats/races, but it'd be surmountable.

(edit) Or, a Wizard with all non-Core spells. No Greater Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Summon Monster, Polymorph, True Strike, Glitterdust, Mass Enlarge Person, Antimagic Field.... man, that'd be haaaard.

I do like the non-Core idea, but with SpC it's not gonna hinder casters much. True, it removes several of the worst offender, but they'll still be far more powerful than anything else.

You might consider both going non-Core, and no casting at the same time... That eliminates a lot of the feats that other feats depend on as well.

[PhoenixRivers]

100% noncore is great for weak designs. However, might I suggest a more esoteric and challenging concept?

Melee Mage.

Wizard, focused on front line fighting.

Enlarge Person, Fist of Stone, Bull's Strength.

Not touch spells, mind you. Actually try to Codzilla a wizard.

[sonofzeal]

I do like the non-Core idea, but with SpC it's not gonna hinder casters much. True, it removes several of the worst offender, but they'll still be far more powerful than anything else.

You might consider both going non-Core, and no casting at the same time... That eliminates a lot of the feats that other feats depend on as well.

It's not just that a lot of the worst offenders are Core, it's that a lot of the basic useful ones are Core too, like Greater Mage Armor, or Mirror Image, or Dispel Magic, stuff that's not broken but is hard to do without. A 100% nonCore Wizard will still have plenty of things he can do, but he loses out on so much of the generic baseline stuff that it'll take much more creativity to get by.

[ericgrau]

I don't buy it. Even if core were ridiculously unbalanced, the sheer number of options and combos from 20 splatbooks could overwhelm anything for what you can do. Even if no single book is that bad. I smell an exaggeration.

But if you're really stuck on those spells, try this: Core only fighter or monk or etc. non-caster. Ok, go.

[Temet Nosce]

It's not just that a lot of the worst offenders are Core, it's that a lot of the basic useful ones are Core too, like Greater Mage Armor, or Mirror Image, or Dispel Magic, stuff that's not broken but is hard to do without. A 100% nonCore Wizard will still have plenty of things he can do, but he loses out on so much of the generic baseline stuff that it'll take much more creativity to get by.

Lets see.. Luminous Armor, Mirror Image, greater, Wall of Dispel Magic... Hell, I never use GMA anyways, I prefer to get something I can hang a Soulfire on.