How Below-the-Belt Is This?

[Another_Poet]

Imagine the following scenario:

1) Wizard has a token that lets him control mimics. They are docile and obey his commands while he holds the token.

2) Wizard orders mimics, in chest form, to open up. He has his kobold Chief of Security place auto-reset area-of-effect traps inside each of the mimics. The traps trigger when the lid of the chest is opened.

3) Wizard orders the mimics to close up, then go act like normal chests in his treasure room.

4) When the PCs end up in a fight with the mimics, the mimics can open their lids every round as a free action. Or heck, call it a move action; it makes little difference. So on top of their normal attacks they set off the traps every round, hitting all PCs in range.

The PCs get XP both for the mimics themselves and for the auto-reset traps inside the mimics. But if you were one of the players faced with these beasties, would you feel like your GM "cheated"? Would you feel like this is unfair? Or just a clever setup for a tough combat?

ap

[arguskos]

DAMN! I love that trick!! I'd do it, no doubt!

As a player, I'd be really confused and a little angry, but as long as we discover after the encounter how the wizard did it, I'm fine. As long as that justification exists, is presented in game, and is reasonable, I can dig it.

[Dixieboy]

I'd say such exploits allow me to break the game in similar ways.

[The Rose Dragon]

Mimics, as far as I'm aware, don't have a "chest form". They are simply monsters that visually resemble chests or other things of similar size. So, short of them eating the trap, the tactic wouldn't work.

Now, if there is something that allows them to actually function as chests that I forgot, then yes, the tactic would work. I would not call it below-the-belt, either.

[Coplantor]

This is OK, players should love it, and if they not, keep throwing them untill they learn to love them!

Me, as a player, I would be confused at first, but really, challenge is what DnD is all about, with this, you will be taking them out of their safe zone, make them react different than usual!

[PinkysBrain]

Be careful, abusing mobile/custom magic traps isn't something you want your PCs to do ... yet you would be signing them a blank check to start doing it with this.

[Douglas]

One potential problem I see with this scheme: the mimics themselves are inside the area of effect of their traps. Depending on exactly how you set it all up and which spell you use for the traps, they may be killing themselves along with the PCs.

[woodenbandman]

No, not cool. If you do that, it sets a precedent that a player can do it. I craft a trap that is set to go off when I snap my finger as a free action N times per round (my personal record is like 20) that shoots a CL 9 magic missile. I just killed everything.

Don't abuse rules as a DM, unless you want your player to do it. And you REALLY don't want a player to do it. The trap rules are stupid as-is, don't abuse them because then you get the Tippyverse with Automatic Reset Simulacrum traps that create infinite simulacrums.

[Keshay]

One potential problem I see with this scheme: the mimics themselves are inside the area of effect of their traps. Depending on exactly how you set it all up and which spell you use for the traps, they may be killing themselves along with the PCs.

I'm going to assume the traps being set are Acid-Energy, so that the mimics are immune to thier damage.

Otherwise, yeah. The mimics would be just as screwed as the PCs, probably moreso since the traps is going off inside them.

[jiriku]

Yeah, be aware that since the wizard's mimic control is a token, Pc's can, by acquiring this token or learning enough about it to create their own, control their own mimics. They can then place their own auto-reset traps inside these pet mimics and have their pet traps follow them everywhere they go.

Or even more easily, they could simply create animated objects containing these traps, bypassing the need to craft/obtain the token or find themselves a mimic.

[Paulus]

Below the belt? No, nasty you nasty nasty brilliant man you? Yes.
But the only anger I would feel from this is if of course there was a TPK, but that is true of any situation so... you know, go for it.

[hamishspence]

Might depend on if its possible to get miniature, portable traps in this setting.

I can imagine an acid-immune plaque, with a spell on it, stored inside the creature, attached in such a way as it will be clearly visible the moment it opens its "lid"

A trigger like "Activates when exposed to light" would make sense.

[Blue Warlock]

As a player I would love this, its a fun and inventive encounter (although I'd make sure nobody died from this, would probably cause some annoyance if you abused trap rules to kill the party)

That being said, I'm not everybody. I wouldn't then turn around and use trap cheese with my PC to do whatever the hell I'd like, but this is pretty much telling the players you approve of trap cheese and that they could do it.

Actually, if you did enough things like this, I would probably feel obligated to do the same, as you might have ratcheted up the power level too much that I would have to fight back with this.

TLDR; Use the encounter, but maybe instead of having it work whenever the mimics open their lids, try it with whenever they get attacked? Feels less cheesy.

[Riffington]

Traps that reset every round are the actual cheese here.

[potatocubed]

I might do it once, as in 'on one mimic', to create an interesting encounter. But then again, if the players have survived a mimic-infested dungeon to find something that looks like a treasure room, they had better be expecting something unspeakably devious.

That said, remember that you have to set things up so that your players can't duplicate what you've just done.

Have you considered a plus-sized mimic that gets people stuck, then vomits up a black pudding?

[taltamir]

DAMN! I love that trick!! I'd do it, no doubt!

As a player, I'd be really confused and a little angry, but as long as we discover after the encounter how the wizard did it, I'm fine. As long as that justification exists, is presented in game, and is reasonable, I can dig it.

I thought auto reset traps are banned from your campaign for being broken as hell (one free casting of a spell per round? mmm... create food, any other utility or creation spell, summoning spells, simulcrums, or just damage spells like this one)...

Cause if not, we can get some mimics with traps in them too and it will just devolve into who has more mimics.

[PinkysBrain]

Cause if not, we can get some mimics with traps in them too and it will just devolve into who has more mimics.

The DM always has more mimics.

[Kizara]

Have you considered a plus-sized mimic that gets people stuck, then vomits up a black pudding?

THIS, do this, and do it with gleeeee....

[taltamir]

THIS, do this, and do it with gleeeee....

just put a black pudding in a regular chest, or a bag of holding... you find treasue... first chest has 5000 gp, second has 2000gp, third has a black pudding, roll a ref save to not have it grab your hand when you open it.

[Kizara]

just put a black pudding in a regular chest, or a bag of holding... you find treasue... first chest has 5000 gp, second has 2000gp, third has a black pudding, roll a ref save to not have it grab your hand when you open it.

Yes, and that's certinally more straightforward, but you don't get the awesome element of having your character die by projectile pudding vomit, that you otherwise would.

[ericgrau]

So it's a trap that's not really a trap; it's a special ability. Making it a free action to open itself each round is the biggest gripe I'd have about it. And that mechanism better really be something to work on a creature and aim somehow. I mean normally it just needs to aim for the trigger and the person it's meant to hit will be conveniently in place. Or if you mean an area effect ability, then essentially you're giving him an unlimited use magic item, which again should really be standard action activated regardless of your fancy setup. Even items that activate with a single word (normally a free action) act this way.

Otherwise I'd retaliate with a character with 35 crossbows strapped to his body and a string and pully system connecting their triggers to my opening mouth. Boom! Suck 35d6 monsters!

[Masaioh]

Brilliant idea, especially the black pudding part.

[awa]

the difficulty of that encounter is far higher then its challenge ratting suggests
so unless you up the cr to compensate the heroes are getting cheated xp

second like others have mentioned you've set a precedent for enchanting your self with a magic trap. you've just made an extremely powerful slotles magic item for a vastly reduced price that's a bad president.


personally i just say no to abuse of the poorly thought out trap mechanics

[Another_Poet]

Hmmm... black pudding vomit... it's like adding genius to genius with a side order of genius.

Okay, thanks for the feedback guys. I think this is what I will do.

1) Traps will be either area-of-effect poison gas, or area-of-effect acid cloud; mimics are thus immune and there are no targeting issues.

2) Traps will have between 1 and 5 doses of their acid/poison, not unlimited use.

3) If the PCs salvage the traps with remaining doses, they are welcome to use them as they see fit.

4) If the PCs find the token before killing all the mimics, they are welcome to bring the docile mimics along with them and order them into battle (or use them as stylish beer coolers) as they see fit.

5) Lucky for me, my players show little interest in most item crafting so having them make Tippyverse traps, 100 mimics or multiple tokens of mimic control seems unlikely.

Thanks again for the feedback and great ideas :)

@ Awa: I will increase the CR of the traps either by +1 (because they cannot be located by the Search skill, at least not till after it is too late) or as if they have the "Never Miss" feature (if they don't already) so the PCs get more XP. Good call.

[ericgrau]

Still sounds fishy, but if you bump up the CR to match at least it won't break the game.

[Dragonmuncher]

So it's a trap that's not really a trap; it's a special ability. Making it a free action to open itself each round is the biggest gripe I'd have about it. And that mechanism better really be something to work on a creature and aim somehow. I mean normally it just needs to aim for the trigger and the person it's meant to hit will be conveniently in place. Or if you mean an area effect ability, then essentially you're giving him an unlimited use magic item, which again should really be standard action activated regardless of your fancy setup. Even items that activate with a single word (normally a free action) act this way.

Otherwise I'd retaliate with a character with 35 crossbows strapped to his body and a string and pully system connecting their triggers to my opening mouth. Boom! Suck 35d6 monsters!

Yeah, this isn't really different than just having a monster that has the ability to do a fireburst-esque ability. Flavor it with "the wizard with the token was experimenting with modifying mimics," and you don't have to deal with the whole weird auto-trap thing. Give a little bit more xp, and you're good.

You could give it the ability to explode once per round, you could have it have a recharge method similar to a dragon's, or you could have it explode only when first opened (ie, once per encounter)

[taltamir]

Hmmm... black pudding vomit... it's like adding genius to genius with a side order of genius.

Okay, thanks for the feedback guys. I think this is what I will do.

1) Traps will be either area-of-effect poison gas, or area-of-effect acid cloud; mimics are thus immune and there are no targeting issues.

2) Traps will have between 1 and 5 doses of their acid/poison, not unlimited use.

3) If the PCs salvage the traps with remaining doses, they are welcome to use them as they see fit.

4) If the PCs find the token before killing all the mimics, they are welcome to bring the docile mimics along with them and order them into battle (or use them as stylish beer coolers) as they see fit.

5) Lucky for me, my players show little interest in most item crafting so having them make Tippyverse traps, 100 mimics or multiple tokens of mimic control seems unlikely.

Thanks again for the feedback and great ideas :)

@ Awa: I will increase the CR of the traps either by +1 (because they cannot be located by the Search skill, at least not till after it is too late) or as if they have the "Never Miss" feature (if they don't already) so the PCs get more XP. Good call.

Ah, so its CHARGES based... by the RAW there is a broken trap mechanic where you can, for a very low price, get a trap that casts a spell an infinite amount of times, once per round. So you can completely break everything ever TM with it. We thought you meant THAT kind of mechanic... Still, it counts as "unusual equipment" for the monsters and should raise their ECL.

As for vomitting oozes... Warforged, Golem, etc... :)
Oooh. now I wanna craft a hollow clay golem full of black pudding... "and with great effort and as your buddies lay bleeding on the floor (stabilized) you finally deliver the death blow, shattering the clay golem... which falls apart to reveal a black pudding... roll initiative...)

[Random832]

Activating should be a standard action.

[taltamir]

Activating should be a standard action.

or you are setting a precedent for "at will" activation "trap" items. yap. +1

[Fiery Diamond]

I agree that it should be a standard action.