Can a Sorceror with Wings/Tail be viable campaign character?

[Raenir Salazar]

A DM I'm talking with is saying that there will be a huge number of issues with "racism" ie inability for the party to walk around travel, get jobs, goto markets places etc on the same level of say akin to trying to walk around with a Drow character in the party.

I mean this seems absurd even with a hardassed DM your still HUMAN just descended from a Dragon.

[quick_comment]

Alter self, done.

[Ravens_cry]

Depends on the DM's world. If it is almost strictly human, with other races far and few between, an elf would seem tremendously odd. Especially if they are as alien as most depictions of Mialee. On the other hand, in a world where being half-something is more common than not and mind flayers walk the streets, no, not at all.
D&D is a work of joint creation, you are working together on this. Just remember that that works both ways.

[Zeful]

Sorcerers are generally feared/hated/what-have-you simply for having magic (according to the official description at least). Wings/Tail would simply magnify that for everyone who doesn't worship dragons (while beings that worship dragons would be groveling at your feet and proclaiming a desire to have your genetically abnormal babies). I mean you have wings and a tail for heaven's sake. Further these are bony, membrane-y wings, not fluffy angelic ones. Anyone without Knowledge (Arcana) and is slightly religious will see the character as a half-fiend (even if they don't have Knowledge: (Religion), it's likely the Expert/Adept/Cleric running the local church will, and he'll tell them).

In this case the "racism" associated with such a character is pretty reasonable.

[arguskos]

Well, from an in-game perspective, most basic peasant NPCs will probably think you're some kind of freak and refuse to deal with you. Merchants will be uneasy and may charge more. Bartenders might tell you to get out of their bar, cause "we don't serve freaks here". Yeah, I'd say an inhuman looking thing will face some serious stigmas.

It doesn't matter that you are mostly human, it's that you are partially reptile or whatever.

[Raenir Salazar]

But the actual priest guy with ranks in religion however will know though right away "hes just a dragon thing" and if your descended from say a Metallic dragon and the priest is good aligned...

Well, from an in-game perspective, most basic peasant NPCs will probably think you're some kind of freak and refuse to deal with you. Merchants will be uneasy and may charge more. Bartenders might tell you to get out of their bar, cause "we don't serve freaks here". Yeah, I'd say an inhuman looking thing will face some serious stigmas.

It doesn't matter that you are mostly human, it's that you are partially reptile or whatever.

This seems at worst what I'ld expect barring exceptional circumstances the DM person I'm speaking with is under the impression that even getting foodstuffs and basic gear is about the "best"/most that can be acquire from mercs.

[jiriku]

Hat of disguise: 1000gp for unlimited castings of disguise self. If you can't beat 'em, infiltrate 'em.

[Zeful]

But the actual priest guy with ranks in religion however will know though right away "hes just a dragon thing" and if your descended from say a Metallic dragon and the priest is good aligned...

That's still Knowledge: (Arcana), an untrained check can be made for the skill but only if the DC is 10 or less, so depending on how you got the wings and tail is more of a determinator of the priest knows or not.

This seems at worst what I'ld expect barring exceptional circumstances the DM person I'm speaking with is under the impression that even getting expensive foodstuffs is about the "best" that can be acquired.

That depends on the setting really, a setting were Dragons are know for Virgin Sacrifices and razing of villages they don't like. Then someone with obviously draconic features is likely to get stoned just walking near a settlement. On the other hand, if there was a big war (like World War one) and the Good Dragons spent their resources healing and providing tactical support, the people with draconic features are likely to be praised and or have people of the opposite gender throwing themselves at such a person (the latter more so during the "end" of such a war, but it's not impossible ten or even fifty years later).

[taltamir]

tuck the tail in your pants, fold your wings, and wear a heavy cloak...

[Raenir Salazar]

the point for getting wings is to eventually get basic flight you cant hide under a cloak those kind of wings :)

I mean say its either Eberron or Faerun or Greyhawk your standard popular dnd settings.

edit: I alreayd brought up Alter Self, he claims most shopkeepers will have magic detection things and throw me out if I walk in the door

[taltamir]

the point for getting wings is to eventually get basic flight you cant hide under a cloak those kind of wings :)

I mean say its either Eberron or Faerun or Greyhawk your standard popular dnd settings.

edit: I alreayd brought up Alter Self, he claims most shopkeepers will have magic detection things and throw me out if I walk in the door

my suggestions were what to do at level 1... you are a sorcerer, after a very short while you don't care what people think (because you will be too powerful)...

And as mentioned, there are a variety of easily accessible and cheap spells to make them invisible.

[gdiddy]

Your DM is telling you not to play a half dragon. It will make things complicated, and the human parts of the world you're playing in does not tolerate them.

I would ask him to be a winged Kobold instead (Uses your first feat to buy the gliding wings - Races of the Dragon). Hardly as threatening to the local populace. They'll probably just think some wizards spell-warped lizard dog escaped.

[Kylarra]

If he doesn't want you walking around as a half-dragon, no amount of spells are going to save you. Just change it.

[gdiddy]

Just out of curiosity, why do you want to play a Half-Dragon?

[taltamir]

Your DM is telling you not to play a half dragon. It will make things complicated, and the human parts of the world you're playing in does not tolerate them.

I would ask him to be a winged Kobold instead (Uses your first feat to buy the gliding wings - Races of the Dragon). Hardly as threatening to the local populace. They'll probably just think some wizards spell-warped lizard dog escaped.

if the DM is saying not to play it is one issue. If the DM wants to know if other people think it is as big a problem as he thinks it would be, than that is another issue.

[Kylarra]

if the DM is saying not to play it is one issue. If the DM wants to know if other people think it is as big a problem as he thinks it would be, than that is another issue.

The DM isn't asking us. The player is asking us if we think it'd be a problem. There is only one answer. There is as much of a problem as the DM wants there to be, and clearly this DM doesn't want a half-dragon and is being less than subtle about saying it without outright saying it.

[Quietus]

Depends on the DM's world. If it is almost strictly human, with other races far and few between, an elf would seem tremendously odd. Especially if they are as alien as most depictions of Mialee. On the other hand, in a world where being half-something is more common than not and mind flayers walk the streets, no, not at all.
D&D is a work of joint creation, you are working together on this. Just remember that that works both ways.

This. I've had worlds in the past where being something so off-the-wall would be perfectly fine... hell, in places like Sigil, it's almost expected.

In my current main world, however... Vethedar was, in relatively recent history, ruled tyrannically by dragons. It's been a couple centuries, but it's still a sore spot.. dragons are not looked kindly upon. Worse, there are some children being born to fully Human families that are taking on draconic traits at puberty, growing very light scales rather than body hair. These individuals are shunned and hated simply because they have what amount to rough patches of skin. With feats, they could gain other traits - horns, claws, tails, and I'd allow the draconic wing feats from Races of the Dragon - but the further one goes along those lines, the more likely they are to be lynched on sight in the major cities.

[Fizban]

Just pointing out, he said wings and a tail, nothing about half-dragon (which doesn't get a tail). I imagine he's thinking Silverbrow Human (silver dragon descended human) and then spending his first level feat and bonus feat on Dragon Wings and Dragon Tail.

And like everyone else has said, there's only as much problem as the DM decides there is. If he doesn't want monstrous looking characters then you're going to have issues playing a monstrous looking character. Just because your sheet says human doesn't mean the NPCs know or care if you're human- you look different.

Now, silverbrow humans get a bonus on disguise checks, and with a really big cloak it shouldn't be to hard at all to hide those in town until you've got the magical bling to do it effortlessly. Or you could take Disguise Self at first level: it can't change your "body type", which I would assume means it won't obscure your wings and tail, but you could make the wings look angelic or illusion your clothing into the aforementioned big cloak.

[Kylarra]

If flight's your concern, just grit your teeth and bear it until level 6 and then take overland flight.

[Sinfire Titan]

the point for getting wings is to eventually get basic flight you cant hide under a cloak those kind of wings :)

I mean say its either Eberron or Faerun or Greyhawk your standard popular dnd settings.

edit: I alreayd brought up Alter Self, he claims most shopkeepers will have magic detection things and throw me out if I walk in the door

1: That last part is BS, as adventurers have magical effects active on their body almost 24/7. Spellcasters doubly so.

2: The DM probably doesn't want you to play a Half-Dragon. Or at the very least,a Half-Dragon Sorcerer. Try Dragonborn (Races of the Dragon). It's better concept-wise for a number of reasons, and the social stigma is negated when dealing with people who have ranks in Knowledge (Religion) because of your origins. Also, +2 Con.

[taltamir]

To OP... If your DM sounds averse to the idea I wouldn't press it. It can really end badly to all involved. He might have an unrealistically harsh idea of how "racism" works in game and that can really derail a game. And cause IRL conflict between characters and DM.

As a nice twist, you can maybe play a dragon descendant who does NOT have visible traits... but, say, has a younger sister who suddenly develops dragon like traits some time into your adventuring career or something interesting like that... again it requires a lot of maturity from DM and playing companions and yourself. And a willingness to actually "deal" with this particular issue on a regular basis.

[The Neoclassic]

1: That last part is BS, as adventurers have magical effects active on their body almost 24/7. Spellcasters doubly so.

Well, some may have some sort of magical detection for seeing invisibility and such. However, your average sword seller can't afford this, and like Sinfire points out, shopkeepers would be foolish to throw out anyone who has any magical aura about them.

2: The DM probably doesn't want you to play a Half-Dragon. Or at the very least,a Half-Dragon Sorcerer. Try Dragonborn (Races of the Dragon). It's better concept-wise for a number of reasons, and the social stigma is negated when dealing with people who have ranks in Knowledge (Religion) because of your origins. Also, +2 Con.

Or just play a human with some hint of draconic heritage, but nothing too obvious. Some DMs just don't like half-dragons (or other sorts of half-whatevers or exotic races), and while I realize some players are in love with them, sometimes one just has to deal and pick something more mundane.

[Gnaeus]

Well, some may have some sort of magical detection for seeing invisibility and such. However, your average sword seller can't afford this, and like Sinfire points out, shopkeepers would be foolish to throw out anyone who has any magical aura about them.

Hey Fred Fighter! You carry all my stuff anyway. Go into that shop and tell them you want to buy a wand of glitterdust and a bag of cobwebs please. Nevermind. You might screw that up. Let me just write down this shopping list. Hand it to the storekeeper.

[Kylarra]

Hey Fred Fighter! You carry all my stuff anyway. Go into that shop and tell them you want to buy a wand of glitterdust and a bag of cobwebs please. Nevermind. You might screw that up. Let me just write down this shopping list. Hand it to the storekeeper.

Well, most people do leave the shopping to the party face anyway... just it's generally the sorcerer with their naturally high CHA, too bad it's not working for them since he's also naturally repulsive with his dragonparts.

[Deliverance]

I mean this seems absurd even with a hardassed DM your still HUMAN just descended from a Dragon.

Considering the treatment that the majority of human societies of all ages have given to humans who were only mildly physically deformed (to speak nothing of major deformations like a hunchback), having a quite ordinary human society in your role playing game treat a deformed mutant with a tail and wings as an utter abomination is most assuredly not a far stretch.

And one using alter self to pass amongst humans unknown to them could quite reasonably be considered, should he ever be discovered, a deformed mutant infiltrator, who deserves likely to be treated like the wolves are or, best case, merely be ostracized from human society.

Also known as "it depends on the setting".

You may have a setting where everybody embraces diversity and the lamb and the lion happily cohabit and share their iron rations. You may have a setting where it is commonplace to accept everybody or anything sentient as people. You may have a setting where being partly an inhuman monster to the eyes of all who see does not predispose humans against you. Assuming that it is absurd for this not to be the case seems to be making major unwarranted assumptions about your campaign world and the nature of human beings.

If in doubt, assume that prejudice against the visibly different exists - it is usually a safe bet.

[Raenir Salazar]

Actually you misunderstand, he said he wouldn't mind me hypothetically play a human sorceror witht hose feats he would even give them for free (the feats) but hes saying it would be on the lines of nearly unplayable as if walking around with a drow.

[The Neoclassic]

Actually you misunderstand, he said he wouldn't mind me hypothetically play a human sorceror witht hose feats he would even give them for free (the feats) but hes saying it would be on the lines of nearly unplayable.

Did I fail at reading somewhere? This went from "My DM doesn't want me to play a character with wings and a tail because the NPCs will hate him" to something about feat selection? Where did I get lost?

[Raenir Salazar]

I never said he was refusing but it seems yes its based on the setting.

I keep forgetting that you've only ever played in or read about high-magic worlds. (A world in which common people know the difference between good and evil dragons and routinely use Alter Self to disguise their racial identities can, I suspect, be fairly called "high-magic.") And, yes, I certainly agree that a setting like Forgotten Realms or Eberron or even Dragonlance is far less likely to pose this sort of problem to freak monster PCs than a good setting. Wink

In the vast majority of games I run, a human with a tail and wings wandering into a shop is likely to be the first human with a tail and wings that shopkeeper has ever seen.

[Kylarra]

Delicious snark is delicious, I love the "my campaign is better than published settings" aspect. That aside, I'd just not bother if he's against it (yes I know he hasn't specifically said it, but all the signs are there).

[The Neoclassic]

I never said he was refusing but it seems yes its based on the setting.

... Who said refusing? And why was feat selection brought up and then ignored again? I'm sorry, but I REALLY do not understand what's going on here. I'll just leave it at "If your DM would prefer you not play a sorcerer with wings and a tail, and will give you a hard time about it, then it's probably best not to do it. None of us, and probably not you, will be able to change your DM's mind."

Confusing responses are confusing.