DM tactics; using TPKs

[Belial_the_Leveler]

After years of DMing you find the relatively easy fights boring. Or you may have powergamers in your group and their flattening every encounter is beginning to get on your nerves. You may have a story reason for the PCs to lose for a change. You may want to make the campaign more realistic and more horror-oriented. Or you may just want to unleash all that awesome power your position as DM grants you and cry out to the firmament; "POWER! UNLIMITED POWER!!!"


So, for whatever reason you have decided your PCs should lose in the next encounter. The only thing that remains is to decide how to make the encounter not just overwhelming mechanics-wise but also memorable. You don't want all that hard work you put into it to be wasted, do you?

Doomsday Sanction.
According to the encounter chart, one out of thirteen encounters should be 4-5 levels above the party level. This is the encounter where the power difference is obvious and the PCs should run, use diplomacy or otherwise avoid a direct confrontation. That, however, is classified in the Good DM Book as "not fun". To change that classification, pick that obviously too strong monster and put it in an occasion where the PCs can't or should not run. A situation like defend the innocents, final boss fight or have the monster track down the PCs in their lair instead of the other way around.
And here comes the important part; shift around items, feats and spell choices on the monster to make it a lot harder to kill than it already is but less powerful offencively. This prolongs the fight and gives the PCs a tiny chance to come up with a winning plan. And if they don't? It will still be an epic 20-rounds-plus fight with lots of scenery damage and crowning moments of awesome as the PCs heroically sacrifice themselves to weaken the monster enough for the NPCs to finally kill it.

The name is Wayne. Bruce Wayne.
Take a good look at your players' favorite tactics. Then take a good look at your players' available tactics for the day. Then take a spellcasting monster and give it the right spells, items, feats and other options to be crazy prepared against them. Then set the monster loose upon the players.
This does not usually produce a happy team of players. But it is an awesome way to teach borderline munchkins that some things are bad for the game. And just in case they defeat the monster? Have it be summoned, conjured, simulacrumed or astrally projected by the campaign's BBEG. No real monster, no loot.
The objective behind this encounter is teaching players not to try to break the game. Some people simply insist on doing gamebreaking stuff and won't take rule 0 for an answer. Sometimes, when subjected to reverse munchkinry they mend their evil ways.

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
Players know monsters. They can face down a horde of zombies or a raging dragon and not flinch-even if they know the encounter will be tough-because, in the end, DnD is based upon heroes triumphing. And because they've read the Monster books or faced such monsters before. There are no unknown factors and repetition is the slayer of doubt.
So, take a high HD but low CR monster. Elemental, giant and non-template undead work best but you can experiment if you want. Now, begin adding templates or straight abilities (the weirder the better) to catch up with the wanted CR and shift around the form until it no longer resembles the original creature. Add ranks in disguise and illusions or darkness coupled with nondetection or similar anti-divination measures. When the PCs fight the monster, they won't know what it is from its appearance. Once you start using abilities from several different templates, they won't be able to tell what the creature is from its abilities either. Now add in the darkness and illusions and that means they can't see the creature itself.
Here's where the doubt starts. Should I use blasphemy or holy word? Cold Iron or Silver? Should I orb or energy drain? Once a few attacks fail (or appear to fail) more questions follow; what's that thing's CR? should we be fighting it? maybe we should run now?
I've had level 20 players run from a shadow will-o-wisp ghost (CR 9) because they didn't know what it was and how to fight it.

[Kylarra]

I kind of prefer rocks fall and everyone dies to DM fiats and abuse of the CR system.

Subjecting people to "reverse munchkinnery" in hopes that they'll be less munchkinny is just passive-aggressive BS, and probably will exacerbate the situation rather than helping it.


So I guess number 1 is more or less plausible. 2 I've just covered. 3 ought to strike some knowledge checks, but is more or less just abuse of the CR system. If they can't knowledge check it, then they'll just blast it. Sure it won't be optimal, but it's not like being paralyzed with indecision was doing them any good.

[Grumman]

I have a better option:

Don't.
If you're going into a game with the goal of a TPK, you have failed as a DM. Option one can only work if you make sure that the players know what they're up against and are completely free to escape (even if that means abandoning the peasants to their fate), because railroading characters to their deaths is only fun for the DM. Option two punishes the players for trusting the DM not to cheat, and encourages them to not share any exploitable information in the future. Option three is the whole reason why the Paragon Mindflayer sucks.

[Rixx]

Don't do this. Your players will hate you for it.

Not to mention that, as a DM, you have no chance of failure. And if there's no chance of failure, what you're doing can't reasonably be counted as a victory for you.

Playing in a campaign with no chance of failure is boring, but playing in a campaign with no chance of success is pointless.

[MickJay]

Would work well for one-off adventures, with new characters, provided that the players are aware it's going to (most likely) end like that. If it's supposed to be a "surprise" ending of a long-running campaign, I forsee doom, gloom and gnashing of teeth (not to mention a possibility of lynching).

[Lost Demiurge]

If you've already decided what happens in the next encounter, then why are you running a game?

Go write a story. It'll waste less of your players' valuable time.

EDIT: That said... I did run one campaign where the PC's were designed to run into a no-escape situation. But I did warn them before the campaign started, that things would get really freaking grim, and there was going to be one big incident where everything changed. So instead of ending the game, the TPK kicked off the REAL plot.

Basically, at the bottom of the first dungeon they found the necromancer who'd made the place. He revealed that it had all been a test, and that they'd passed. Then he killed the hell out of them. (They were 6th level, he was 28th.) They put up a struggle, but all died.

Then they woke up in caskets, each of them a different type of undead. They got out of their shattered tomb, and found that centuries had passed. The necromancer had made of them his undead generals, and for decades they'd ravaged the land. Finally the necromancer was defeated and obliterated, but at the cost of such power that the generals couldn't be treated likewise.

So they'd been sealed away... And over time, the protective magic had worn off, and people had forgotten. And once more they were free.

Now with the necromancer gone, they once more had free will, and limited memories of the time when they had been the horrors that ravaged the continent. Their dark powers were a shadow of what they'd once been, but they were still scary as hell.

And 7 other generals were loose, most of them far more malignant than the pc's could ever hope to be...

It was a fun game. Campaign folded before I got too far, due to other issues. Still, neat while it lasted.

[Shademan]

well try to not see this as TPK but rather "a darn tough challenge", okay? okay.

No one gets TPK'd and we all have fun

[Johel]

I like the idea of a custom monster, since it brings memories of a PbP game. I wasn't one of the players, mind you, but the DM had a "high bodycount" reputation, sadism but also wild genius... so I watched and wasn't disappointed.

Psychic rats.
The tiny little bastards could basically stun their enemies from the distance. The effect lasted no more than a few rounds but with unusual cunning, they basically used the darkness to hide, lured the warrior-type after them, stunned everybody and offed the group one after another.

And it was all just rats...
The group was level 2, by the way.

[Kelpstrand]

After years of DMing you find the relatively easy fights boring.

Then don't play easy fights. Play tougher but not TPK fights.

Or you may have powergamers in your group and their flattening every encounter is beginning to get on your nerves.

Then why not make the fights be against tougher opposition that is a challenge, but not a designed TPK? Oh right. Moderation doesn't exist. Level 1 PCs can either face Kobolds or Pun-Pun, and there is no challenge in between the two to challenge but not TPK them.

Not to mention, maybe they just powergame because they don't want to lose or even be challenged. Maybe they have fun flattening enemies and then flexxing their muscles and giving Armstrong speeches.

You may have a story reason for the PCs to lose for a change.

Because you are a terrible DM that railroads horribly and you think you are writing a single author fiction novel instead of playing a cooperative story game?

You may want to make the campaign more realistic and more horror-oriented.

Which you cleared with your players first, since they all signed up for one type of game, and you wouldn't be a self centered jerk and change it on them with no warning.

Or you may just want to unleash all that awesome power your position as DM grants you and cry out to the firmament; "POWER! UNLIMITED POWER!!!"

Do I even need to say it? Some please tell me that I don't even need to point out what's wrong with this.

Then take a good look at your players' available tactics for the day.

How on earth would you take a look at that? I mean, sure if they are all fighters or Spontaneous casters and they always do the same thing. But if your players decide to prepare different spells, or plan different tactics, how are you going to figure that out?

[Tehnar]

I don't think the OPs intent was a guide to make a TPK happen, more of a "using these things will make a fight harder, and could cause a TPK".

[tyckspoon]

I don't think the OPs intent was a guide to make a TPK happen, more of a "using these things will make a fight harder, and could cause a TPK".

Really? Did you read the thread title?

[Yar]

Sometimes TPK is part of the story. In the adventure called Adams wrath for the old ravenloft game the characters are KILLED the very first encounter than made into flesh golems. Damn creepy and TPK-Rific.

[valadil]

I don't like the doomsday idea, unless it was central to the plot and everyone knew it. I could see players enjoying it in two ways. If they know what they're getting into and are choosing to martyr themselves that could work. The other idea is if it's a one shot prelude and then they play their real characters after the heroes have done the dirty work.

I use different tactics for different groups. One of my groups wants to be challenged. One group wants to beat up monsters. If I'm DMing for the second group, I'm probably going to let them keep reusing good tactics.

I usually make up my own enemies. I like have the MM handy and all, but I'd always rather give my PCs a plot enemy than a wandering monster. If I stat an NPC, players aren't likely to guess what I came up with.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Doomsday Sanction
A good idea, yet poorly executed. Don't intend for the PCs to die, and always give them a chance. At the very least, give them the option of running away, or of somehow circumventing the encounter. It will given the PCs an oppressive despair to be beaten, even if they did manage to convey almost the civilians out of the monster's path, as the PCs will know that its rampage hasn't been stopped, or that they could nothing but flee before it. That's the stuff of horror, and can be great for the plot and the PCs developement as characters (and also introduce great new villians). Planned as a TPK or even a likely TPK it's a bad idea, but planned as an encounter that brute force can't necessarily overcome it might be a crowning point of a campaign arc.

The Name's Wayne. Bruce Wayne.
A truly terrible idea. Powergaming and munchkinry are best addressed out of game, as addressing the problems in game leads to anger and resentment. Don't ever do this unless you want the rest of your games to be filled with tension and a DM vs. Player mentality.

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
A favorite of mine...but again, only when not used with the intent to kill the players. Confuse them? Yes. Disturb them? Yes. Scare them? Yes. But kill them? Only as much as any other encounter might. It's good to keep them on their toes, but bad to punish them for the need to keep them on their toes. Make the encounter strange and unique, as that will make it memorable and gripping, but don't make it unnecessarily deadly, as that's basically planning a TPK, something that, in a group with much-loved character, shouldn't happen. Even a pure horror game requires that the heroes have some chance of pulling through alive, although the cost may be great.

In short, there's never an excuse for a planned or attempted TPK, even in the name of an interesting encounter. Always give the PC's a way out, even if it's hard to see at first. They are, after all, the heroes, and it's really only in horror stories that the heroes stand little to no hope of ever triumphing. Take pride in your players victories against your challenges, rather than in their defeat at your hands. It makes their eventual triumph sweeter for both them and you.

[Oslecamo]

To be honest, if I ever felt the need the need to make the PCs auto-lose a fight, I would just pick a random monster and then give it abilities on the fly. Also keep the rolls secret and claim it keeps making it's saves and add special immunities of thin air as needed.

But I never did this, and wouldn't do unless the players decided something really stupid like jumping right into an evil god's plane out of their will before epic levels and I hadn't the epic handbook at hand. And then it would be something like flaming balors fall, you take 100d100 damage, no save. Still alive? Well, here comes another wave...


The purpose of the monster rules is to give the players a chance to win.

[Grumman]

Sometimes TPK is part of the story. In the adventure called Adams wrath for the old ravenloft game the characters are KILLED the very first encounter than made into flesh golems. Damn creepy and TPK-Rific.

If I wanted to play a game as a flesh golem, I'd join a game where the DM asks me to play a flesh golem. I'd rather not waste my time developing a character just so the DM can kill them and mutilate their corpse in the first session.

[Fluffles]

If you are going to make it a TPK, make it so damn funny the can't hate you for it. Like Leeroy Jenkins. I'm actually kinda of going for a TPK in a game I'm playing in now, where I'm secretly CE, while I'm pretending to be LG xD I'm among a group of CNs and one CG What's even funnier is that I'm playing him like Richard, acting chaotic evil, and nobody calls me out on alignment issues. But then again, I'm not blindly murdering people, yet :Biggrin:

Back on topic: It's better to set them up for a TPK, like having a Lich trap them in a room or something, with no hope of escape, and then just before he kills them all have something stop the lich. Like an Angel stepping in to kill the Lich. But then let them watch as the Lich kills the angel. Then they get used like Mr. Stiffly did. Acid tank + Acid breathing Shark + Ray of Frost. And pretty much keep them there until they can escape. Win/win scenario. They get to go through the horror of them being sent to the point of death so that they learn they they can't win every fight, and you get to go through the enjoyment of finding cruel and highly inventive ways for their characters to nearly die.

Everybody is happy :D

Or you could just put them in a labyrinth, and let them find their own way out.

[Godskook]

To me, not intentionally killing the PCs(one or many) is the other half of the gentleman's agreement a DM has with his players. They don't break his campaign into tiny pieces, utilizing loopholes he doesn't find, and he doesn't have time to really stop. Once the DM starts intentionally killing PCs*, Pun-Pun, chain-gated solars, shadow mages, and every munchkin trick in the book becomes fair PC game.

*The exception to this is when you've more or less warned your players about it, or it is part of the genre your campaign is set in.

[Stycotl]

some of these dm tactics that belial mentions are useful in order to create a *harder* encounter, as others have said. but i too see no point in playing the game if you are going to railroad them into early deaths. if you hate your group that much, get a new group.

[Xenogears]

Psychic rats.
The tiny little bastards could basically stun their enemies from the distance. The effect lasted no more than a few rounds but with unusual cunning, they basically used the darkness to hide, lured the warrior-type after them, stunned everybody and offed the group one after another.

And it was all just rats...
The group was level 2, by the way.

Those are cranium rats from the fiend folio. Not saying the dm didn't just happen to invent a monster that is also in a book just pointing out that they are basically identical to cranium rats who (depending upon size of the swarm) range in CR from a kinda OP 2 i think to much higher.

[Tehnar]

Really? Did you read the thread title?

Yes, really, I read the title. And then I read his post.

At worst what he advocates is the the PC's lose the encounter. Now that might happen because of a TPK, or the PC's running away or being captured or whatever. Aside from the title (which I think was intended to shock), there are is no explicit advice to cause TPKs, only advice to make encounters harder.

Advice I find very solid. Players should lose encounters, even going so far that a DM plans a encounter where the players lose (as fitting the story of course). If the players never lose, then what is the point of winning?

[Night Monkey]

If players have munchy urges that you don't want them indulging in proper games, then a good idea might be the high-powered tournament. I am planning one where all the players make 20th level gestalt characters, with whatever cheese they like, and they get put against a series of hard battles until they finally all perish. Good fun, gives players some catharsis for their munchiness, gives the DM some catharsis for eeeevilness and even though the players will lose in the end there's the challenge of how many of the mental encounters the players can beat.

[Myrmex]

lol @ player entitlement.

[JonestheSpy]

If you are going to make it a TPK, make it so damn funny the can't hate you for it.

The Computer has decided you all have to die now. Disobeying the Computer is Treason. We know what happens to traitors, don't we...?

[Kelpstrand]

lol @ player entitlement.

lol @ people who think they are more important than their players.

[Yora]

Aiming for TPK can be interesting in certain, very special circumstances. But even then, I wouldn't enforce it.

As I see it, there are two situations that would be reasonable to am for TPK as a gm:
- The players know about the odds in advance and have their characters decide that they will try anyway, even though they will almost certainly not survive it. That includes for example getting into an enemy base and causing massive destruction but knowing that you won't get out again, or accepting that to win the final confrontation,they have to undergo a procedure that will boost them for that final battle, but will claim their lives shortly after. In either way, they have to have the choice to accept certain death, or avoid the final confrontation and accept the results of not having stopped the BBEG.
- The players decide that their characters want to make lots of trouble and have to realize that their antics will not go unopposed and unpinished. If they don't want to accept negotiations or agree to cease their action, and instead say "bring it on", I think it's acceptable that they will be overwhelmed by almost endless forces eventually.

In either way, it has to be because the players have their characters walk into certain death. Making everything they do futile is not the least fun, except in a survival horror game.

[Myrmex]

I try to make every encounter a TPK. The games much more fun for me. I just tell the players not to be dumb and use the internet.

[Kelpstrand]

I try to make every encounter a TPK. The games much more fun for me. I just tell the players not to be dumb and use the internet.

So how do your level 1 parties survive Pun Pun showing up an instant killing them?

[Myrmex]

So how do your level 1 parties survive Pun Pun showing up an instant killing them?

Normally they don't.
But when they do, it usually involves time travel.

[chiasaur11]

I try to make every encounter a TPK. The games much more fun for me. I just tell the players not to be dumb and use the internet.

Then why not just say "Rocks fall, everyone dies" at the beginning of every session?

Saves time for all parties concerned.