Opposing group needed for high level wizards

[NotMe]

In a (D&D 3.5) campaign world I'm running there is an organisation of wizards with a number of high level (15-20) wizard members, as well as many more in the mid levels.

I am looking for an in-game plausible opponent to these to explain (other than through internal divisions, interest, or morality) why these wizards do not have more political power, and I need to find another group that is able to keep these in check, without themselves excercising unlimited power. These opponents need to:
- be mortal (preferable one or more of the normal player races)
- not be full arcane casters in their own right
- be a threat to wizards of similar level to themselves
- be able to operate quietly (so the whole region isn't overly aware of their existence)

I know that I could just handwave the whole problem away (they don't have more power because they just don't, ok?), but neither I or my players find this particularly satisfying.

Within the campaign world all teleports are limited to line of sight, there is no craft contingent and abilities to summon outsiders are severely limited. Pretty much anything non-campaign specific and published 3.5 is ok.

Anyone have any suggestions for this rival organisation? Thanks.

[Daefos]

Well, there's always the old "they're too busy researching spells/enjoying private hobbies/fighting each other to gain political power, but I guess that's not what you're going for.

Perhaps a group of assassins that specializes in bypassing magical protections and traps? Wizards are human(ish) after all, and all the high level spell slots in the world won't help you if someone slits your throat in your sleep.

[daggaz]

Why not have politics be run by a powerful guild of rogues. They use their personal influence (much better at diplomacy and face-checks than wizards) to keep a handle on the human side of the network. As well, they have some kind of magic based power, be it a potential threat to the wizards, or something that they just use to gain a significant advantage, which they protect with UMD and plenty of anti-divination spells, along side the good old "come close and we will stab you in the back from the darkness" kinda thing, as well as the fact that the wizards are in a situation where they absolutely do not know who is implicated in the guilds ring, and thus must operate completely on their own.

[Choco]

How bout an organization of high level clerics? Perhaps the local church is secretly trying to rid the world of those heretic wizards, or perhaps just a small fraction of the clergy is doing it secretly. They got the influence/charisma to probably turn entire nations against the wizards.

[Seatbelt]

You could just try good old government. Set up institutions where the wizards are theoretically checked by some other locus of political power. The wizards obey it because thats just the way its always been done despite the arcane power wielded.



Then have someone exploit it

[Fluffles]

Lesser demons/devils?

Or a Platoon of high level Sword Sages :)

[subject42]

I've run into a similar problem and I turned to history to explain the issue. When any "wizarding organization" starts out they are generally low level and there are generally a small number of them relative to the surrounding population. Provided that the local governing entity can get an early drop on the wizards, they can get leverage early on and refuse to let off the pressure.

In my campaign, the local monarch stormed the then-young Wizard College and took hostage at least one family member from each wizard and put them into stasis. He then stated that any untoward action by the wizards would result in the deaths of their loved-ones.

Time passed in the world and the monarchy became less barbaric as their governing situation became more secure. Over hundreds of years the practice evolved to where no child could be apprenticed to the wizards without a sibling being sent to the palace, where they became indentured to the guard as something not unlike a Janissary. The familial bond kept both groups under control.

It essentially made prepared arcane casters an arm of the government and guaranteed that all wizards had a well trained fighter that was interested in keeping the monsters off of them when they went afield.

[Zephyros]

The most plausible answer to that (powerwise) would be an elite force of Clerics that worship a God that hates all things arcane (give him the Pride domain for more awesomesauce, Protection for Antimagic Field and Inquisition just to be thematically appropriate ). This Witch Hunter Order compromises mainly of Clerics, though some of its members can be Crusaders, and its elite guard a mix of Ruby Knight Vindicators

Those Wizards speak of their provocative and careless colleagues that got divinely impaled from the shadows, in fear and awe.

[Valaqil]

I think Daefos' answer probably covers it in most cases.

Another answer not given yet: Perhaps there is a group of Mage-Killers somewhere who are trying to keep that group from becoming too strong? Have them be the "wetworks" team for one of the local organizations that also wants power. Any time the Wizarding group starts to become too powerful, an "accident" happens, or maybe someone is framed, and the head of the wizard's group is killed. Political in-fighting and struggles occur, the wizards have to take a while to regroup, stablize, and begin their quest for power anew.

(I know Mage Killer is from Magic of Faerun, but there may be other classes that work as well. Even just a prepared Assassin could do it.)

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I am looking for an in-game plausible opponent to these to explain (other than through internal divisions, interest, or morality) why these wizards do not have more political power

What does the man who can found his own private plane of existance care about the political squabblings of lesser men?

[jiriku]

Political and financial support from the government. The government subsidies their wizardly research and funds the construction of their constructs and towers and such. It also smooths over any fear or hysteria from the populace over the occasional magical accidents or disasters that might cause people to break out the torches and pitchforks.

Without the support of the government, the wizardly guild would be dramatically inconvenienced. It's far more convenient for them to play by the rules and enjoy the carrot provided by the government.

Anyhow, if they were to oppose the government and overthrow it, they'd have to become politicians themselves and run the country. As you can see from our own politics, that's a full-time job. Doesn't leave time for magical study. The wizards gain far more from living within the rules of the local power center than they would gain from trying to become the local power center.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Political and financial support from the government. The government subsidies their wizardly research and funds the construction of their constructs and towers and such. It also smooths over any fear or hysteria from the populace over the occasional magical accidents or disasters that might cause people to break out the torches and pitchforks.

Wizards can make gold through infinite loops (or other less exploitive means) and if the plebians decided to break out the torches and pitchforks, they'd find themselves on the recieivng end of a well placed Cloudkill.

[Omegonthesane]

What does the man who can found his own private plane of existance care about the political squabblings of lesser men?

Because no amount of power prevents him from being a man. With a family, and friends. Who may not want to follow him outside of reality forever.
Also, because the DM can't actually make a fun adventure without giving him a time limit. What good is escaping this reality if the Fire King is going to destroy every reality in 24 hours and you have no Epic spells that are fit for the task of slaying him from afar?

Wizards can make gold through infinite loops (or other less exploitive means) and if the plebians decided to break out the torches and pitchforks, they'd find themselves on the recieivng end of a well placed Cloudkill.

Full time job. That's what you leave to your apprentices while you spend your day contemplating Pun-Pun and DMM cheese and your weekends giving in to your mortal urges.

[deuxhero]

How about other wizards who have a MAD (nuclear war, not monks) that prevents them from acting.

[Telonius]

In a (D&D 3.5) campaign world I'm running there is an organisation of wizards with a number of high level (15-20) wizard members, as well as many more in the mid levels.

I am looking for an in-game plausible opponent to these to explain (other than through internal divisions, interest, or morality) why these wizards do not have more political power, and I need to find another group that is able to keep these in check, without themselves excercising unlimited power. These opponents need to:
- be mortal (preferable one or more of the normal player races)
- not be full arcane casters in their own right
- be a threat to wizards of similar level to themselves
- be able to operate quietly (so the whole region isn't overly aware of their existence)

I know that I could just handwave the whole problem away (they don't have more power because they just don't, ok?), but neither I or my players find this particularly satisfying.

Within the campaign world all teleports are limited to line of sight, there is no craft contingent and abilities to summon outsiders are severely limited. Pretty much anything non-campaign specific and published 3.5 is ok.

Anyone have any suggestions for this rival organisation? Thanks.

This sounds like a job for Rogues or Bards.

A collection of (insert relevant powers here) realized that the wizards were getting far too powerful, and could seize control if they worked together. So, they started to infiltrate the organization. Sometimes, they seduced their way into the wizards' good graces. (Not too hard for a bard in any case, and really, what wizard puts ranks into Sense Motive?) Other times, they paid off the wizard in gold or promised power. Still others, they gained knowledge of some dark secret that the wizard does not want known and blackmailed the wizard into compliance. In any case, they've finessed their way into the counsels of all of the Wizards, and are constantly working to sow suspicion among their ranks. As a result, none of the highest-level wizards will share any of their best spells with each other.

To help avoid Divination problems, each contact of the Wizard gets some sort of a bonus for achievements the wizard does accomplish. So all members of the organization actually do want their wizard to succeed and will try to prevent any harm from coming to the wizard. Since they're not technically a threat to an individual wizard, and actually wish their wizard well, this foils all but the most carefully-worded of divinations. If another wizard divines a threat from a rival wizard's contact, this further enhances his sense of paranoia - his rivals' friends really are trying to bring him down!

[Curmudgeon]

You could go with a group that just kills off characters that use magic too readily. A Rogue/Cloistered Cleric/Eye of Lolth could do it with the right feats. Give them Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, Pierce Magical Protection, and Darkstalker. The thing about the Eye of Lolth is that their Hide in Plain Sight works just like the Assassin/Shadowdancer HiPS, but it's Extraordinary rather than Supernatural. Go in there and UMD a scroll of Antimagic Field, then Hide right in the Wizard's face as you sneak attack them to death in a single round.

While characters trained like this would be ideal to oppose mages, they're too specialized to be good general-purpose assassins.

[Fan]

You could go with a group that just kills off characters that use magic too readily. A Rogue/Cloistered Cleric/Eye of Lolth could do it with the right feats. Give them Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, Pierce Magical Protection, and Darkstalker. The thing about the Eye of Lolth is that their Hide in Plain Sight works just like the Assassin/Shadowdancer HiPS, but it's Extraordinary rather than Supernatural. Go in there and UMD a scroll of Antimagic Field, then Hide right in the Wizard's face as you sneak attack them to death in a single round.

While characters trained like this would be ideal to oppose mages, they're too specialized to be good general-purpose assassins.

Contingent Wall of Force's, and a Prismatic Sphere would love to laugh at your pathetic attempts to slay the higher being known as "Wizarden."

[Keld Denar]

Eh, just make them use a larger than normal amount of resources. My high level wizard (level 13) lately has been encountering a lot of outsiders with the ability to go Ethereal at will (standard action to shift out), a limited form of Epic Deflect Arrows (1/rd), and constant mobile Lesser Globe of Invulnerabilities. This defeats a lot of the common tactics he uses, like Ray of Enfeeblement/Exhaustion, Enervation, Viscid Glob, Solid Fog, EBT, and a host of other BC and debuffing spells. While some of his spells are lowered in power because of this (things like Fogs only cause 1 round of inconvenience, rather than 2-3), hes still contributing. Just burning through resources at an accelerated rate due to the fact that most of his BC and debuff effects are less effective.

So yea. Just make some stuff up. Give some certain bad guys a 1/day Wings of Cover to completely negate the first attack on them per round. This requires the use of Quickened spells or coordinated attacks between 2+ casters. Give them a 1/day Freedom of Movement that lasts for 1-2 rounds, so that any BC has to be cast twice to work. Give a certain group of bad guys a persisted Ray Deflection as a racial ability. Maybe give another group of guys a 1/encounter Iron Heart Surge so they can shrug off a given debuff. That kind of random stuff. You are the DM, make stuff up.

You aren't completely negating any individual mage, just making life a bit more difficult for the group...ie a challenge, which is what you were looking for.

[Curmudgeon]

Contingent Wall of Force's, and a Prismatic Sphere would love to laugh at your pathetic attempts to slay the higher being known as "Wizarden."

The laughter is quite misplaced. Contingency is a spell that is not on the list of exclusions for Antimagic Field.

Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field (see the individual spell descriptions).

The Antimagic Field suppresses the Contingency entirely, so those other spells that would still work don't matter, as they never get triggered.

[Keld Denar]

Could you even set your contingency to "about to be affected by and antimatic field"? I guess it depends on how omnicient you have contingencies be.

I guess a similar question about be, can Detect Magic even detect an AMF? Its a spell, yea, but it suppresses magic. So...would another spell detect suppresed magic? If Detect Magic can locate an AMF, then contingency should be able to to. Otherwise, AMF would block all contingencies other than maybe "person within 15' of me".

[Eldariel]

Could you even set your contingency to "about to be affected by and antimatic field"? I guess it depends on how omnicient you have contingencies be.

"When 5' from an AMF" is much safer, less ambiguous wording with the same effect given Anticipate Teleport.

[woodenbandman]

Priests of Vecna. They'd probably be just as secretive if not moreso, and pretty vicious with the scry-and-screw.

Beguilers, Psions, Archivists, Artificers, or Druids would also work.

[Eldariel]

Priests of Vecna. They'd probably be just as secretive if not moreso, and pretty vicious with the scry-and-screw.

Beguilers, Psions, Archivists, Artificers, or Druids would also work.

I always go for Droods. Civilization - Nature balance is really easy to hit, especially with some Dark Sunian elements.

[Curmudgeon]

Could you even set your contingency to "about to be affected by and antimatic field"? I guess it depends on how omnicient you have contingencies be.

That leads to a big discussion on whether Contingency, since it isn't a Divination spell, can detect things that aren't apparent to the person who casts it. I've always worked with DMs that assumed Contingency only worked on observable triggers, and I've carried that forward when DMing myself.

[taltamir]

local government employ crack teams of balanced parties...
A wizard who tries to usurp power (and it happens quite often) will find his lab door bashed down by a party made out of:
1. a wizard
2. a warrior
3. a cleric
4. a rogue

All equipped with stuff designed to slay wizards.
or something of that sort..

people organize based on many things... their job is usually not one of those. You don't need a "paladin order" or a "warrior guild" to oppose wizards...

[OutlawJT]

One thought for your 'wetworks' guy. Runescarred Berzerker. Basically, a Barbarian that can use a handful of spells via carving them into his skin. Chief among them at that level? Anti-magic field. Train him in stealth and you have a beefy powerhouse hitter who can sneak up on a wizard, negate his magic, and then splatter him into mist. This is from the Forgotten Realms setting but I think it can easily be adapted to any setting.

[dspeyer]

Give me a child up to the age of seven and he is mine for life.

The government (or established church) runs the schools. Attendance is mandatory. The schools are good, but also subtly indoctrinate with loyalty to the established order. Any student who shows signs of rejecting the indoctrination is deemed "morally unfit to study magic", and no one will teach him. On the rare occasions that an adult wizard rejects the system, he is called "evil" and immediately taken down by the rest of the magical community.

Note that this is only stable if the government is *mostly* good.

[KellKheraptis]

Give me a child up to the age of seven and he is mine for life.

The government (or established church) runs the schools. Attendance is mandatory. The schools are good, but also subtly indoctrinate with loyalty to the established order. Any student who shows signs of rejecting the indoctrination is deemed "morally unfit to study magic", and no one will teach him. On the rare occasions that an adult wizard rejects the system, he is called "evil" and immediately taken down by the rest of the magical community.

Note that this is only stable if the government is *mostly* lawful.

Mind control is never a good act. Period. Paragraph. And it is only tentatively neutral, under the auspice of self-preservation. I would rate it as Lawful Neutral with even the slightest hint of full control being full blown diabolically Lawful Evil. But emphasis mine, it is NOT a good act.

And adding to topic, look at the Harpers, and maybe the PrC Unseen Seer. I could see a paramilitary group such as the Harpers employing Uneen Seers as a special strike team, given that a good deal of their power works just fine in an AMF, and they can still keep their spells with one feat applied. The only sad part is a full caster can do it better :P

[Vangor]

7 Cleric/10 Ghost-Faced Killer, though I mean this as more of an archetype than explicitly using the exact build. I designed this to demonstrate a necessity of lengthy protections, being observant, etc., for a party of seven who were of equivalent ECL. My result was an Assay Resistance DMM Maximize Shivering Touch Ethereal-Walker who could instakill multiple people with a low Will save after/while rendering others helpless.

The reason the Wizard cabal lacks such expansive power is because such enemies exist waiting for moments to strike. While assassins and similar are always abound, the methods of em tend to feel slightly more mundane. Ambushers competent in straight combat with magical protections who might overcome magical protections are simply not what anyone wants.

[Yahzi]

I am looking for an in-game plausible opponent to these to explain (other than through internal divisions, interest, or morality) why these wizards do not have more political power, and I need to find another group that is able to keep these in check, without themselves excercising unlimited power.

As I suggested in the Yahziworld thread - Mind-flayers! The reason they don't have unlimited power is they turn on each other, too.

- not be full arcane casters in their own right

Oh, well... what you've asked for is simply impossible. The only way anything can hide from 15th level wizard magic is MindBlank. Which requires magic.