[3.5] Inventors Without Artificer?

[Jergmo]

If I wanted to make a character like, say, Leonardo da Vinci (level 5 Expert), what are the knowledge and craft skills that would be required? Could it be done with what's already available, or do the skills need to be tinkered with?

[AslanCross]

Put all your skills into various Craft skills. It's up to the DM to set the DC of the various inventions, I guess. That's all I can think of. You could take Wizard and then put your godly amount of skill points.

[PinkysBrain]

Any physics outside of the rules are upto the DM really, except for certain corner effects of the rules (bucket brigade rail gun) the rules do not present a complete enough physics to invent anything ... so mundane inventions are essentially completely by DM fiat. If the DM allows mundane inventions unless the character keeps them secret and for personal use, like say Iron Man, it wouldn't make him personally powerful in the world except politically. Leonardo Da Vinci is not Iron Man ... it's not really a PC, more of a NPC.

You could simply make a level 5 expert with some craft/profession/knowledge skills and say he invented stuff ... say he invented tanglefoot bags, smokesticks and siege engines.

[Jergmo]

I'm the DM in question, I just didn't want to wave my hands and say "Poof! An invention!" I want to actually stat out what the character needs, and he may end up aiding the PC's if they sponsor him, as his funding is crap.

[PinkysBrain]

You could simply give him a circumstance bonus (from birth) to profession(engineering) of +15 or so ... this would explain how he could think of something which higher level (retired) adventurers never even considered.

If he has to help the PCs but is poor then I think mixing in a bit of Iron Man with Leonardo would work out better though ... with some mechanically powerful mundane inventions hidden away to help them out with he will be a bit more interesting for the PCs.

[Jergmo]

You could simply give him a circumstance bonus (from birth) to profession(engineering) of +15 or so ... this would explain how he could think of something which higher level (retired) adventurers never even considered.

If he has to help the PCs but is poor then I think mixing in a bit of Iron Mad with Leonardo would work out better though ... with some mechanically powerful mundane inventions hidden away to help them out with he will be a bit more interesting for the PCs.

Why would he need a circumstance bonus much higher when the PC's aren't trained in the skills he is? Heck, a DC 40 check is supposed to be able to create something that revolutionizes that profession, like the folding sword technique, or Einstein's greatest works.

[PinkysBrain]

Retraining and hobbies :)

[HCL]

There is a Tinker class in the Warcraft Player's Handbook (anyone who has played the any Warcraft games since Warcraft 2 knows that goblins and gnomes use crazy technology). There is a mechanic in there for making different types of sweet stuff. I havent used it myself but someone from the WotC forums told me they ran it once and it was pretty balanced and fun.

[Ravens_cry]

Hmmm. ..what would you put as the DC for a crossbow launched, hand cranked, mini harpoon taser with a bird arrow barb, with multiple Lyndon Jars as capacitors? Statistically I want it to Stun for 1d4 rounds plus 3d6 per round cranked, to a maximum of 9d6, of electricity damage with a range of 60 feet (that's how long the wires are)? And I can't wear a backpack while wearing it and it requires both hands, wearing gloves, and requires a full action to reload with the special crossbow bolts. Without them it just acts as a light crossbow.

[Jergmo]

Hmmm. ..what would you put as the DC for a crossbow launched, hand cranked, mini harpoon taser with a bird arrow barb, with multiple Lyndon Jars as capacitors? Statistically I want it to Stun for 1d4 rounds plus 3d6 per round cranked, to a maximum of 9d6, of electricity damage with a range of 60 feet (that's how long the wires are)? And I can't wear a backpack while wearing it and it requires both hands, wearing gloves, and requires a full action to reload with the special crossbow bolts. Without them it just acts as a light crossbow.

Um...er...*Points at Steam and Sorcery*?

[woodenbandman]

There are plenty of nonartificer classes that can create inventions, but for practical nonmagical inventing, I suggest you look up the Alchemy revision that allows you to basically brew lightning bolts in a bottle. I homebrewed a class that makes a giant robot, it's over on Brilliantgameologists.com

[bosssmiley]

If I wanted to make a character like, say, Leonardo da Vinci (level 5 Expert), what are the knowledge and craft skills that would be required? Could it be done with what's already available, or do the skills need to be tinkered with?

With just mundane stuff (good stat mod, Aid Another from assistants, Circumstances bonuses due to masterwork tools, etc.) you can get a modifier of +19 at 5th level. That's DC39 if you take 20 on Knowledge/Craft rolls, which is only 1 short of the hardest skill DCs in RAW. (Justin Bacon's Calibrating Your Expectations article is useful source here)

Beyond that: ask your DM what his mechanics for creating inventions in-game are.

[Teron]

You can't take 20 on Craft or Knowledge rolls, as the former has a possible penalty for failure (wasting materials) and the latter can only be rolled once per question, whereas taking 20 represents trying over and over until you get the best result you're capable of, which makes no sense in this case.

[taltamir]

craft art etc are simple enough to do... inventions are a whole different thing...
You see, inventions have to be BANNED in DnD. Otherwise players will just "invent" gunpowder, air planes, submarines, ceramic armors, etc etc.

Artificers do not "invent", they make magic items, that is not an invention... its magic.

So if you want to make an "inventor", just get a random guy, give him engineering skills and various knowledges, and say he is an inventor.

[Malacode]

You can't take 20 on Craft or Knowledge rolls, as the former has a possible penalty for failure (wasting materials) and the latter can only be rolled once per question, whereas taking 20 represents trying over and over until you get the best result you're capable of, which makes no sense in this case.

Do the game rules state anywhere that taking 20 is trying until you suceed? I think they just say that it takes X times as long as normal. For things like knowledge skills, I always visualised it as taking care and thinking the problem over, rather than just going with your first conclusion. Being able to tell whether that corpse is of a Wyvern or a Dragon is a lot easier than being able to tell which one is swooping down to attack you, after all. You simply have more time and less stress. That's just how I'd rule it in my games, so if I'm wrong by RAW< do correct me.

[Teron]

Taking 20
When you have plenty of time (generally 2 minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round action, or one standard action), you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, eventually you will get a 20 on 1d20 if you roll enough times. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.

Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes twenty times as long as making a single check would take.

Since taking 20 assumes that the character will fail many times before succeeding, if you did attempt to take 20 on a skill that carries penalties for failure, your character would automatically incur those penalties before he or she could complete the task. Common “take 20” skills include Escape Artist, Open Lock, and Search.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usi...s.htm#taking20

[Fixer]

You can't take 20 on Craft or Knowledge rolls, as the former has a possible penalty for failure (wasting materials) and the latter can only be rolled once per question, whereas taking 20 represents trying over and over until you get the best result you're capable of, which makes no sense in this case.

Partially incorrect.

You can take 20 on Craft checks as they can be retried. It simply takes 20 times as long and uses up some extra raw materials (how much depends on the DC and can be determined using math).

You cannot take 20 on Knowledge checks because failed Knowledge checks cannot be retried.

[FeAnPi]

There are plenty of nonartificer classes that can create inventions, but for practical nonmagical inventing, I suggest you look up the Alchemy revision that allows you to basically brew lightning bolts in a bottle. I homebrewed a class that makes a giant robot, it's over on Brilliantgameologists.com

And where can I find this revision, if I may ask?
Thanks.

[Telonius]

For Leonardo, specifically? I'd probably peg him as a Factotum, but Expert works too. Starting stat: Int 18. Advanced 3 age categories: Int 21. Max ranks in Craft (Alchemy), Craft (Painting), Craft (Sculpture), Decipher Script, Heal, Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering), Knowledge (Nature), Profession (Architect), and Profession (Inventor). Several languages, a few ranks in Knowledge (Nobility), Knowledge (Arcana), and Diplomacy.

Note that some of the Craft and Profession checks will require artisan's tools. An Alchemist's Lab, a royal inventor's workshop, things like that. And many of the inventions would require very high craft skills to produce, possibly beyond the skills of the local smiths and carpenters.