A world without dragons?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

In a campaign setting I'm preparing, the story goes as follows:

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1) Some hundred thousand years ago, mankind discovers magic.
2) Huge war between tech and magic nations follows. Magic wins.
3) Cue in several millenia of nuclear winter.
4) With the aid of magic, mankind survives. As the unnatural ice age comes to an end, a very, very advanced civilisation is built where magic replaces-and is better than-tech.
5) Advances in species manipulation through magic are being made. Rich people pay to become exceptionally long-lived, more beautiful, smarter and perceptive. Companies pay for stronger, more durable, socially and intellectually dependent workers. The military studies the creation of extremely powerful beings with innate destructive sorceries while scientists pursue the paths that lead to immortality. As factions within humanity and between nations become more varied, the differences lead to strife, racism and eventually all-out war.
6) Cue in several millenia of nuclear winter.
7) Many different intelligent species evolve out of the ashes of the previous world. Humans, Elves, Dwarves and Orcs become distinct races. Abominations and demons, the weapons of the second war, roam the worst places of the world. There are rumors of things that dwell in the dark, creatures that exist but do not live, unspeakable horrors that drink blood and eat flesh.
8) Humans repopulate the world faster than the other races but have little supernatural defences against the growing darkness. The undead, results of mankind's long-forgotten hunt for immortality, multiply, finding easy victims for their hunger. An alliance of all the humanoid races is formed to stop the dark tide whose members have learned how to walk in daylight and disguise themselves as human. A council of the most powerful mages in the world is formed.
9) The archwizard Adiom curses all supernatural bloodlines everywhere to be unable to conceal themselves as human. The curse takes the form of twisted ears, longer and more pointed the farther from human the humanoid in question is. The stealth advantage of the undead is nullified and the war would be over-if the curse had not also marked the humans' living allies. Mass hysteria ensues as the populace sees enemies everywhere. Attempts at elven genocide begin the third and worst of the great wars.
10) Cue in several millenia of nuclear winter.


11) Present day, beginnings of the fourth age. The geographical features of the world have changed so much as to be unrecognizable; a new world has risen from the Great Wars.
The council of archwizards lives in a shielded sanctuary-city in an unknown location, periodically seeking strong magical talent among the humans. They are the self-appointed guardians of the world yet few see them actually guarding anything beyond themselves. The Curse of Adiom is still strong, a bitter rift between the White Order and most nonhumans.
Human settlements have been appearing over the last five hundred years but humanity has not recovered enough to build major cities or nations yet.
The elves retain a few major magical enclaves that survived the Third War and the following ice age deep in the wildest parts of the surface world; the majority of their population has retreated there and most of them have taken up peaceful coexistence with Nature as their way of life.
The dwarves have weathered the ice age underground, in bunkers that eventually developed into subterranean cities. Dwarven culture is now focused on the earth and its crafts.
The orcs are now barbarian tribes occupying the harsher climate zones, living in desert and tundra environments. Tribes of orcs have lived underground, growing smaller and adapting in the darkness. They are now called goblins.
Vast disaster areas plague the planet's surface; Zones of increased volcanic activity where the earth's crust is fractured, fire and stone rises from the depths and few living beings can endure. Radioactive wastelands and poisonous swamps where foul fumes darken the air and scorch the skies and too-high mountains where the air is thin and the temperature abysmally cold. Living weapons and monsters from the past wars dwell there, what men are now calling demons, abominations and giants. The dead sleep in the darkest places and oldest ruins, the darkness that once walked and almost devoured the world now dormant and forgotten...

So, in a world without dragons and a very different take of the origins of various races, what creatures would you have replacing dragons? Looking for refreshing ideas for the strongest type of creatures in the world here.

[Tehnar]

Androids left over from the first age emerge from some hidden location?

Gibbering Mouthers could be a interesting big bad, lets say if you give them world wide telepathy and the ability to spawn monsters as in previous editions.

A setting where giants are the top dog could also be interesting.

[Saph]

Strongest all-round creature type after dragons would probably be outsiders - demons, devils, and celestials. With no dragons around you'd expect them to dominate, as they've got most of what dragons have (intelligence, strength, toughness, magic, flight, no real weaknesses).

If those are out then we're starting to run thin on high-power monsters. Illithids are powerful enough, but traditionally they keep to themselves. Vampires are typically few in number and need a large prey population.

Maybe nightshades and giants. Giants are tough enough to take on most things, given class levels, and nightshades would rule the night hours with all of the more powerful creatures that typically keep them in check removed.

[Comet]

Giants sound good. They fill the same classic big monster in a cave- slot as dragons.

[PhoenixRivers]

Strongest all-round creature type after dragons would probably be outsiders - demons, devils, and celestials. With no dragons around you'd expect them to dominate, as they've got most of what dragons have (intelligence, strength, toughness, magic, flight, no real weaknesses).

If those are out then we're starting to run thin on high-power monsters. Illithids are powerful enough, but traditionally they keep to themselves. Vampires are typically few in number and need a large prey population.

Maybe nightshades and giants. Giants are tough enough to take on most things, given class levels, and nightshades would rule the night hours with all of the more powerful creatures that typically keep them in check removed.

Other possibilities are throwbacks from times gone by. I mean, it seems like magic ain't what it used to be. So, holed up in areas long forgotten, exist monstrous technological engines, their bodies comprised of rare and valuable metals.

In other words? Hit up some high powered golems in there.

[deuxhero]

And it was so interesting until "And now the races fit the standard stereotypical role everyone gives them" *sigh*.

[Berserk Monk]

There'd have to be organized world governments, and cars, and planes, and cell phones, and the internet, and the Statue of Liberty off in the background? Wait a minute...

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it's earth? No! You bastards! You Blew it up! You really did it! Damn you! Damn you to hell!

[Lvl45DM!]

Bah s/hes got a good idea and a creative way of getting them there dont knock it

Abberrations seem to be the way to go with this, id use beholders and mind flayers and their eldritch abomination big bads as dragon supplements

[deuxhero]

Bah s/hes got a good idea and a creative way of getting them there dont knock it

I didn't. I disliked the presence of the sterotypical dwarf craftsmen, Orc barbarians and Tree huger elfs after the good backstory. It makes the world ultimately mundane.

[Amphetryon]

Strongest all-round creature type after dragons would probably be outsiders - demons, devils, and celestials. With no dragons around you'd expect them to dominate, as they've got most of what dragons have (intelligence, strength, toughness, magic, flight, no real weaknesses).

If those are out then we're starting to run thin on high-power monsters. Illithids are powerful enough, but traditionally they keep to themselves. Vampires are typically few in number and need a large prey population.

Maybe nightshades and giants. Giants are tough enough to take on most things, given class levels, and nightshades would rule the night hours with all of the more powerful creatures that typically keep them in check removed.

This. Lords of Madness is a solid resource for filling a dragon-free world with high-level challenges if you simply retool your world's fluff so that all the aberrations have some reason(s) bot to be reclusive. This is doubly true if you're not running a campaign without Psionics.

[chiasaur11]

There'd have to be organized world governments, and cars, and planes, and cell phones, and the internet, and the Statue of Liberty off in the background? Wait a minute...

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it's earth? No! You bastards! You Blew it up! You really did it! Damn you! Damn you to hell!

So, Apes are the new big menace?

(For the record, I vote giant robots. SCIENCE! is better than magic any day of the week.)

[Cieyrin]

I third the vote for giants or maybe titans!

[Belial_the_Leveler]

I like the aberrations suggestion, especially the illithids and aboleths. They tie into the campaign backstory nicely; as an alternative way to immortality, some arcane scientists decided to change their bodies into a type of creature that doesn't naturally age, is even smarter and has weird mental powers. Eventually they grew away from the concerns of humanity, seeing acquisition of knowledge as the ultimate goal, no matter the consequences (up to and including eating the brains of others)


As for the mundane ending to the backstory, I haven't really worked that far-hence the cheapskate stereotypical races.
What I'd really like to do though was give the elves and dwarves some magitech that really fits their flavor instead of the flying elemental ships and trains of Eberron;

Elves:
Spells and devices powered by solar energy from solar sail gliders and ships (solar panels) to crystal towers that store sunlight and strike enemies with searing light (lasers) to potions that promote and control plant growth (agricultural aides) and magically engineered plants that produce organically grown crystal tools and weapons (genetic engineering). Area magics that control the climate and environment to some extent and are responsible for elven enclaves surviving the ice age (weather control). Magically enhanced animals that are stronger, faster, lighter than normal and immune to diseases (again, genetic engineering)

Dwarves:
Magics and devices that harness the heat of the earth (geothermal power plants) to power huge foundries that can produce advanced earth (ceramic factories) weapons and building materials, runic containers of various sizes that can store heat energy and unleash it on command (explosives) and weapons based on them (grenades, cannons, flamethrowers)

[jiriku]

Balrog balrog balrog! BALROG! Err, I mean, balor.

[Choco]

I would say, make your own creatures! If you are going for a unique homebrew world, this is about the best you can do. Or work off of what is already there and modify it.

If you are looking for something with similar flavor to dragons (solitary, uber-powerful, reclusive) then you can re-fluff and power-boost Hydras, or even the Tarrasque. Or you can use Beholders with class levels maybe. Come to think of it this would work well with any gargantuan + creature.

[Myshlaevsky]

I like the aberrations suggestion, especially the illithids and aboleths. They tie into the campaign backstory nicely; as an alternative way to immortality, some arcane scientists decided to change their bodies into a type of creature that doesn't naturally age, is even smarter and has weird mental powers. Eventually they grew away from the concerns of humanity, seeing acquisition of knowledge as the ultimate goal, no matter the consequences (up to and including eating the brains of others)


As for the mundane ending to the backstory, I haven't really worked that far-hence the cheapskate stereotypical races.
What I'd really like to do though was give the elves and dwarves some magitech that really fits their flavor instead of the flying elemental ships and trains of Eberron;

Elves:
Spells and devices powered by solar energy from solar sail gliders and ships (solar panels) to crystal towers that store sunlight and strike enemies with searing light (lasers) to potions that promote and control plant growth (agricultural aides) and magically engineered plants that produce organically grown crystal tools and weapons (genetic engineering). Area magics that control the climate and environment to some extent and are responsible for elven enclaves surviving the ice age (weather control). Magically enhanced animals that are stronger, faster, lighter than normal and immune to diseases (again, genetic engineering)

Dwarves:
Magics and devices that harness the heat of the earth (geothermal power plants) to power huge foundries that can produce advanced earth (ceramic factories) weapons and building materials, runic containers of various sizes that can store heat energy and unleash it on command (explosives) and weapons based on them (grenades, cannons, flamethrowers)

How do you explain the morphological differences of the Dwarves? If I've read your description right the Orcs are your Morlock-workers and the Dwarves are survivors who took refuge underground. The dwarven racial adaptations aren't what is typically seen as coming from living in a bunker. Were these the miners even back in the golden age? Their strength and size would make them well suited to working hard labour in small spaces. If they were a worker caste wouldn't they have common ground ideologically with the Orcs?

Also, I feel you should go nuclear for at least one Dwarven citadel. Look up currently planned nuclear technologies - they are pretty cool and dramatic in theory.

Beholders would make a nice antagonist, but in your world I feel they cannot be other than created weapons of war. Possibly a beholder is a battle-symbiote for an aberration-inclined scientist, but the enormous spellpower contained therein inevitably drove the user into arrogance and xenophobia?

[Zen Master]

So, in a world without dragons and a very different take of the origins of various races, what creatures would you have replacing dragons? Looking for refreshing ideas for the strongest type of creatures in the world here.

No world I GM in ever has dragons. I've never felt the need to replace them with anything :)

[deuxhero]

As for the mundane ending to the backstory, I haven't really worked that far-hence the cheapskate stereotypical races.
What I'd really like to do though was give the elves and dwarves some magitech that really fits their flavor instead of the flying elemental ships and trains of Eberron;

Better idea:Get rid of the Tolkien plagiarizing "we love saying we are smarter than you but we grows mentally at a 10th the pace of a human" and their ilk entirely!

[hamlet]

I didn't. I disliked the presence of the sterotypical dwarf craftsmen, Orc barbarians and Tree huger elfs after the good backstory. It makes the world ultimately mundane.

I think it's a pretty good idea, though it should be taken a bit further. The dwarves didn't just survive by hunkering down in bunkers, they eventually grew so dependent upon their underground dwellings that they began to worship the earth/stone even if only a little bit. Orcs, left on the surface and in the wastes, grew to fanaticize survivalism. They're into the Spartan Way to an almost comedic and horrific extent. To them, anything that is not the self (i.e., that particular Orc or tribe of orcs) is nothing more than a resource to be used or an enemy/danger to be destroyed.

Don't just say "and all the racial groups fell into their standard slots per PHB," explain how they got there and how it affects their thinking.

[arguskos]

Better idea:Get rid of the Tolkien plagiarizing "we love saying we are smarter than you but we grows mentally at a 10th the pace of a human" and their ilk entirely!

Meh, dwarves and elves can be interesting, if done well. My personal setting has some unique twists on them, for example. Dwarves are hyper-paranoid backstabbing greedy bastards who'd as soon shank you than give you the time of day. Elves are technocrats, more interested in high philosophy and the making of incomprehensible mechanical widgets that don't actually DO anything than in being polite. Gnomes are dead in their graves, thank god.

My thoughts about dragons are that they are good for some worlds, and not for others. My setting doesn't incorporate them in any real way. Instead, they're aloof masters that simply hide in their nation and don't interact with lesser mortals save through slave races and bred servants. They are completely unplayable, as is anything vaguely relating to draconic whatever.

[deuxhero]

Meh, dwarves and elves can be interesting, if done well. My personal setting has some unique twists on them, for example. Dwarves are hyper-paranoid backstabbing greedy bastards who'd as soon shank you than give you the time of day. Elves are technocrats, more interested in high philosophy and the making of incomprehensible mechanical widgets that don't actually DO anything than in being polite. Gnomes are dead in their graves, thank god.

Yes, the perfect way to solve shallow races, given them new sterotypes they follow to the letter...

[CockroachTeaParty]

Well, if there's no dragons, there better be a crapload of dungeons!
HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA!!

...
*dies*

[arguskos]

Yes, the perfect way to solve shallow races, given them new sterotypes they follow to the letter...

So, the basic 5-second overview gives you a total insight into the race? Yeah, that's a great way to judge something. /sarcasm

That synopsis is just that: A SYNOPSIS. It wasn't a total overhaul or explanation, and I'm not done with the race rebuilds anyways. Please, don't judge people's ideas based on a very basic view of something.

[Crafty Cultist]

refluff a titan and it would make a good giant robot

[SartheKobold]

Sounds pretty Fallout... <Raises eyebrow>

How about the planet it'self? Take Elder/Primal Elementals and buff the crap out of them via advancement, templates, or even class levels...

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Repeatedly blasted and poisoned by the arcane energies utilized throughout the wars, the forces of nature were dashed under it's corrupting force. That corruption held for years and years, infecting the planet and the environment, festering to the point that it had to be purged. Like an animal vomiting spoiled food, the planet cast off large portions of blighted nature.

Fissilemental
Colossal Elemental [Earth][Nuclear]
HD: 30d8+420 (555hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40ft
Armor Class: 10
BAB/GRP: +22/+32
Attack: Slam +32M(4d8+10 plus 3d6 Radiation)
Full Attack: 2 Slams +32M (4d8+10 plus 3d6 Radiation)
Space/Reach: 50x50/25ft
SA: Radiation Aura, Earth Mastery, Push, Mutate, Corrupt Elemental
SQ: Earth Glide, Rad Level 3
Saves: F+28 /R+10 /W+12
Abilities: Str-30, Dex-16, Con-38, Int-10, Wis-21, Cha-11
Skills: Listen+38 ,Spot+38
Feats: 11 Feats

Environment: Any Underground/Nuclear
Organization: Solitary or Reactor (4 Fissilementals)
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always Neutral Evil

Corrupt Elemental (Ex): Any Earth Elemental destroyed within 30ft of an active Fissilemental will reassemble as a Fissilemental of it's size, gaining the [Radiation] subtype, a Radiation Aura and a Rad Level based on it's size.

Earth Glide (Ex): As Earth Elemental

Earth Mastery (Ex): As Earth Elemental

Mutate (Ex): Creatures taking Radiation damage more than 3/4 maximum hp must make a Fortitude Save (DC 10+1/2 HD+Con Modifier) or develop a mutation from the Radiation Mutation table. (Too lazy: Make one up...)

Push (Ex): As Earth Elemental

Radiation Aura (Ex): A Fissilemental radiates intense radiation from it's body. Unshielded creatures within 30ft of a Fissilemental must make a Fortitude Save (DC 10+1/2HD+Con Modifier) or take 1 Con Damage/Rad Level. A Fissilemental's natural attacks deal +1d6 Radiation Damage/Rad Level.

Half-assed and thrown together, unbalanced and probabbly lethal, but it's an example... Throw in spells that resist/utilize radiation, make up a mutation table, serve chilled...

[Godskook]

I like this setting. One suggestion for an Ancient race of story keepers is Warforged. Fluff as something similar to the little guys in the movie '9'.

[Jothki]

The nastiest creatures would probably be ones that were created as weapons near the ends of the previous ages. The nastier surface-dwellers from a previous age would probably have been driven extinct in the peak of the next age, though stronger creatures could have survived lurking in deep caves or underground ruins.

For the first age, you'd probably have some sort of constructs, either purely robotic or using some sort of magitechnology. For the second age, abberations and demons and like, along with any particularly nasty undead that didn't surface during the third age. For the third age, leftover undead from the war and whatever creations were made during the two wars.

You say that the war during the third age was the nastiest, but you don't say what actually made it nasty. The first war involved escalating magic and technology until everything blew up, the second involved escalating magical genetic engineering until everything blew up, but all you stated for the third war was a big nasty war. That'd be enough to beat civilization back to the stone age, but wouldn't cause a nuclear winter on its own. Given how effective a single caster's curse was at that point, was that level of magic being used for war at fault?

[SinsI]

I'd take this world a little different:
"Elves" are those that enhance themselves through biotechnology;
"Dwarfs" are cyborgs;
"Orcs" are free-roaming tribesman that freely mutate and rely on survival of the fittest;
"humans" are the products of eugenics program that tries to keep the rate of mutations as low as possible.

[deuxhero]

So, the basic 5-second overview gives you a total insight into the race? Yeah, that's a great way to judge something. /sarcasm

That synopsis is just that: A SYNOPSIS. It wasn't a total overhaul or explanation, and I'm not done with the race rebuilds anyways. Please, don't judge people's ideas based on a very basic view of something.

I am complaining/saying that if an overview of the entire race's (implied) personality exists, then the race shares a personalty (except for the drizit can'trecallhowtospellnameswitha'apostro'fees guys, who share a second). If the race shares a personality they are shallow, because they all follow the same paragraph for how they act (do all humans, even thouse of a single nation, follow the same paragraph for how they act socially if the paragraph isn't speaking boardly?).

[Narco]

{Scrubbed}