[3.5] I want to play a monk!

[Shadowbane]

Yes, you heard me right. I want to play a monk. It's not like the group I play in (not DM, play in) is a bunch of optimizers. It's just that I'm going to be subpar, no matter how we play this.

In the end though, it's the flavor that matters. I want a character who is all about discipline, is the unarmed fighter like the monk, able to perform these amazing physical feats and run really really fast.

My DM says that he'll give me the Saint template without LA, and that will help. I want to do a full monk. (sorry, I know that is an optimizer's nightmare.) How should I build him effectively? I'm tempted to give him Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty at first level.

Anyway. Human, starting scores 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13. Help!

[Talya]

Yes, you heard me right. I want to play a monk. It's not like the group I play in (not DM, play in) is a bunch of optimizers. It's just that I'm going to be subpar, no matter how we play this.

In the end though, it's the flavor that matters. I want a character who is all about discipline, is the unarmed fighter like the monk, able to perform these amazing physical feats and run really really fast.

My DM says that he'll give me the Saint template without LA, and that will help. I want to do a full monk. (sorry, I know that is an optimizer's nightmare.) How should I build him effectively? I'm tempted to give him Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty at first level.

Anyway. Human, starting scores 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13. Help!

If they're not optimizers, VoP is probably fine. Most players never even think about flying, from what I've seen. In my level 17 party, we've got a cleric, a hospitalier, a ranger, and a rogue, and my sorceress is the only one who ever takes flight. (And that with Alter Self instead of any fly spells.) VOP is a lot of fun with a monk, even if it is "suboptimal." It's actually more than optimal if you are primarily focusing on hitting and doing damage and not worrying about all the fancy gear abilities anyway, it will get you the highest hit bonuses/damage totals and fancy built in abilities (along with most--but not all--of the abilities from equipment that most optimizers consider "essential.")

[Flickerdart]

VoP is a trap! Grappling, also a trap.

Find a Monk's Belt. Get the Superior Unarmed Strike feat. Now your fists are doing good damage. Minimize MAD: Carmendine Monk/Kung Fu Genius keys your abilities off INT, which also gives you precious skill points. Invest in a way to Flurry and move: Travel Devotion, or a bunch of teleporting items. If you want, dip some Psychic Warrior levels for Expansion and Hustle, you will be that much more effective. Take Tashalatora, that way you don't lose those levels from your Monk unarmed and AC progressions.

[Starscream]

VoP isn't bad for monks (they and druids are pretty much the only classes that can get away with it), but it still isn't as good as magic items usually. If you are playing a somewhat "magic light" campaign it can be good. And it can help reduce the horrible MADness that is one of a Monk's prime weaknesses.

Don't grapple! Monks just don't have the BAB required for a good grappling build.

[Talya]

VoP isn't bad for monks (they and druids are pretty much the only classes that can get away with it), but it still isn't as good as magic items usually. If you are playing a somewhat "magic light" campaign it can be good. And it can help reduce the horrible MADness that is one of a Monk's prime weaknesses.

Don't grapple! Monks just don't have the BAB required for a good grappling build.

Goliath monks can grapple alright, actually. Other than that, no.

[Flickerdart]

Half-Minotaur, if your DM lets you take it, would help that grapple out.

[jiriku]

The wall walker ACF from dungeonscape lets you exchange slow fall for the ability to run up walls. The decisive strike ACF from PHB2 lets you exchange flurry of blows for decisive strike, which, combined with the aforementioned monk's belt and superior unarmed strike, will give you impressive damage, and improves the save DC of your stunning fist.

[Shadowbane]

Thank you for the advice! My DM would like to note that he is willing to give me the following things to make my class less suboptimal:

BAB at level 20 is +20/+20/+20/+15/+10, and will increase in a different way so it ends up like that .

In addition, monks get DR 10/- instead of DR 10/Magic, and quivering palm is 1/day, instead of 1/week.

Things are looking better.

[AgentPaper]

Natural flight as part of VoP would be helpful, probably at around 10-12 or so.

[Keld Denar]

If you want, dip some Psychic Warrior levels for Expansion and Hustle, you will be that much more effective. Take Tashalatora, that way you don't lose those levels from your Monk unarmed and AC progressions.

This. Do this. Tashalatora is AWESOME! You wanna know what the true meaning of mental focus is? Psionics. Your mind is SOOOO awesome, it deflects hits (Inertial Armor), it rearranges your body (Expansion), it bends space (Psionic Dim Door), it gives you quickness your body couldn't produce (Hustle or Psionic Lion's Charge). It gives you the supreme focus to break stuff with your hands (Grip of Iron).

Monk2/PsyWarX with Tashalatora will outmonk a monk any day, at any level. Its MORE of a monk in every way, except for the fact that it only have 2 levels of monk written on the sheet. But guess what? Your character can't read that sheet. He just thinks hes a monk, like other monks are, except his focus is SOOOOOO much more complete than theirs while his physical prowass is the same.

Seriously, give it a try. Its a blast! I played a higher level 1/2 Giant Monk2/PsyWar11 lady named Clothilda, and she was a grapplin hugglin lovin machine!

[PinkysBrain]

I'm tempted to give him Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty at first level.

It will make you weaker.

Anyway Saint, so you need some exalted feats ... Sanctify Ki Strike, Holy Ki Strike, Fist of the Heavens and maybe Touch of Golden Ice? (Vow of Non Violence would make that last one more powerful, but you will be worse to have in the party than a paladin.)

[ericgrau]

Grapple-focus with a non-monk is a trap. You not only disable the monster, you also disable yourself, since you can't do much damage. Remember folks; there is no grappler and graplee, just 2 creatures involved in a grapple. Unless you take a -4 penalty, which puts you below monk BAB at most levels, and use a light weapon. Also remember that even initiating a grapple deals unarmed damage and only takes one attack (not a standard action), so often there's no reason for a monk to not do it.

Just make sure you use the monk's level 1 and level 6 feats when the opportunity arises. When it doesn't, then don't. Read the monk weapon descriptions because they're related to these. Use the kama to trip and the sai/nunchaku to disarm. Yes, sais disarm well, historically they disarmed well, WotC has a posted NPC that uses a sai to disarm as a main strategy, and an employee made a monk who was a disarming master. If you still think it's a net +0 bonus, then group it with using drowning to heal you up to 0 HP by RAW and ask the DM to give it a bonus "anyway".

If you want to perform cool physical feats, use your monk speed combined with the appropriate skills. Read up on them to see what you can do, including the general skill rules such as there are no natural 1's. Use your mobility to pick out strategic targets. Consider magic items that add even more mobility, such as bonuses to skills or more options like flying. While you're at it consider magic items and potions for other things you may want to do, besides healing potions. Mix AC from multiple sources for best value.

Stats: IMO str 18, dex 17, wis 16, con 15, int 14 and cha 13. Maybe bump con up.

Depending on how far you want to optimize I hear you can stack a bunch of size boosts and etc. to get a lot of unarmed damage, which again translates to grapple damage too. Someone else can help you more with this than me.

[Woodsman]

My friend has a monk fix that can be found here.

Never tried it, but I've heard it works well. If you don't want it, though, VoP isn't a bad choice at all.

[TheWerdna]

first off, convince your DM to let monks have a Full BAB

Get a Amultet of Natural weapon (aka the item that mkaes your fists magic weapon)

with those you should do fine


for stats

Str; 16

dex: 18

Con: 15

Int: 14

Wis: 17

Cha: 13


Get weapon finese, and raise your dex with magic items as you go (will help you get more AC while leting you hit more)

[Claudius Maximus]

What about the Unarmed Swordsage? It's more interesting than Monk, in my opinion. If you must have monk levels, I second the Tashalatora thing.

While suboptimal, you should be fine with VoP if you're not in a particularly high powered campaign.

[Flickerdart]

If we're letting homebrew in, Fax has an awesome Monk homebrew.

Also, do NOT waste feats on Weapon Finesse. You want Strength, because you want to punch people in the face. Weapon Finesse is fine and all, but when you hit you'll do piddling damage.

[Glimbur]

Grapple-focus with a non-monk is a trap. You not only disable the monster, you also disable yourself, since you can't do much damage. Remember folks; there is no grappler and graplee, just 2 creatures involved in a grapple. Unless you take a -4 penalty, which puts you below monk BAB at most levels, and use a light weapon. Also remember that even initiating a grapple deals unarmed damage and only takes one attack (not a standard action), so often there's no reason for a monk to not do it.

I have two different counter-arguments to this.

One: Totemists. They have natural attacks, which work just fine in grapples.

Two: Rogues. Not a rogue that grapples, but you're in a party of ~4 people. The grappling Barbarian or whatever sets up the Rogue for lots of sneak attack opportunities. And the cleric can power attack, and the wizard can actually use those fun touch spells.

More on topic, Unarmed Swordsage can do everything you want out of the monk.

[Starscream]

If we're letting homebrew in, Fax has an awesome Monk homebrew.

Agreed. This may be my single favorite homebrew of all time.

[ericgrau]

I have two different counter-arguments to this.

One: Totemists. They have natural attacks, which work just fine in grapples.

Two: Rogues. Not a rogue that grapples, but you're in a party of ~4 people. The grappling Barbarian or whatever sets up the Rogue for lots of sneak attack opportunities. And the cleric can power attack, and the wizard can actually use those fun touch spells.

More on topic, Unarmed Swordsage can do everything you want out of the monk.

Natural attacks count as light weapons, and eat the -4. The grappler is also more vulnerable to his enemies, so strategically it can go both ways. I'm not saying martial guys should never grapple - there are good opportunities - but focusing on it too much is usually a bad idea. On the flipside of good opportunities there are times when no one should try to grapple. There are also other ways to get strategic advantage without giving up 1 player's damage.

Unarmed swordsage has already been suggested, and it is of course an option. But it's best to assume it could go either way until the OP gives an answer.

[Keld Denar]

The great thing about most grapple based monk or totemist builds is that they still do do other stuff, and quite well. My Clothilda is just as happy punchinating the stuffing out of stuff, but she'd really shine if she could get her manicured hands on a nice dragon and wrestle it to the ground while fully Expanded. Being HUGE and counting as GARGANUTAN while having attacks that are considered COLLOSAL is pretty fun. But she does just as well while completely surrounded making a full attack with Flurry + Snapkick and not worrying about trying to grapple. In fact, with Scorpion's Grasp, grappling is more of an afterthought.

I guest which I had the free feats for Fling Enemy. It may not be super strong mechanically, but when you've got her grapple mod, flinging folks through the air is a riot!

My Totemist gets 8 natural attacks in a round and can do a good job shredding most folks, but when he needs to, he can grab on fine enough to harrass most foes that aren't dedicated grapplers themselves.

[Forbiddenwar]

Agreed. This may be my single favorite homebrew of all time.

I disagree. Fax's homebrew is weaker than the PHB monk, special abilities wise, which is what the OP chose the class for.

On this board, I'm always amazed how quickly posters say "No don't! play X instead" when ever someone says "I want to play a monk," instead of, you know, helping the person to optimize a monk like they ask for.
Monks are fun to play.
Who needs flight when you have dimensional door? At least that is what my epic cleric used all the time. You teleport on top of the flying creature, pin its wings back. You and he plummet, and he takes all the damage when you both hit the ground.

As for MAD (multiple Ability dependency, an acrynom I had no clue about until recently) There is intuitive attack (uses WIS instead of STR to attack)(exalted feat, get as a bonus for VOP) and another feat (name escapes me) that ADDS Dex modifier to your damage. With a +8/+6/+4/+2 to abilities from VOPing, it helps a lot. The scores you have are great for MONK, all mid to high.

[woodenbandman]

Grappling as a monk is not impossible. You will probably find yourself making some weird choices, though.

For starters, what sources are allowed? Magic of Incarnum and/or Tome of Battle help greatly, because they both give you a means of getting Constrict.

As for your race: I would personally go for Anthropomorphic Bear, but that's my answer to everything (and your capstone ability does look tempting now that your DM has given you all this junk). So go human for now.

Feats: First level, take Stunning Fist. Stunned Enemies can't fight back, and you can't qualify for it until later if you don't take it early. You could go for Improved Grapple but it's not necessary.

Your level 1 feats with flaws are Improved Grapple, Scorpion's Grasp Multigrab, and any other feat. Level 3 take Martial Study(or Shape Soulmeld: Kraken Mantle), Level 9 take Martial Stance (Crushing Weight of the Mountain), or Open Lesser Chakra (arms). 6th level, increase your strength and take Improved Multigrab. Then at level 12 take Rending Constriction.

So what should happen is you become able to hit people, start a grapple as a free action, maintain it with 1 hand at no penalty, and then break their neck with a rake attack. You could combine this with Decisive strike for double damage on all your constrict attacks when they inevitably try to break out.

A good race for monks is Duergar. Their Expansion ability is very good, and with a single feat they can use it 3 times per day. or just go Tashalatora, if your DM allows it.

[Shadowbane]

tome of battle is allowed, Magic of Incarnum is not. All the completes are allowed, BoED, Miniature's Handbook.

[gdiddy]

Play a Lawful Good Saint Deepspawn Illithid monk with VoP.

It makes grappling worth it.

Your mission? Show the world that monks mean business.

Tiny minor downside is the +8 LA. But a Mind Flaying Monk is an effective monk.

[Claudius Maximus]

A big problem with grappling is the fact that you can't grapple creatures two or more size categories larger than you. If you intend to grapple monsters, get a means to increase your size. Tashalatora does it best, but a friendly caster with enlarge person is also nice, as is an item that lets you cast enlarge person on yourself.

[Jace Glaekon]

Sacred Fist is neat. I've got a Skarn (MoI) Monk 10/Cleric 1/Sacred Fist 9 with Cleric-zilla based buffs. Only took 2 size mod (Righteous Might and Sledge Strike(Book of Feats)) due to preferences of + modifiers instead of more dice.

[Keld Denar]

On this board, I'm always amazed how quickly posters say "No don't! play X instead" when ever someone says "I want to play a monk," instead of, you know, helping the person to optimize a monk like they ask for.

Because most people who come here saying "I wanna play a monk" really mean "I wanna play an unarmed, unarmored guy who beats stuff up". The best solution for that generally involves very little in the way of actual monk levels. Not everyone realizies this off the bat, so the education starts. Things like various monk fixes, unarmed swordsage, and tashalatora are brought up. If one of them catches the OPs eye, GREAT, if not, the OP should take initiative to focus the thread.

Advice on the internet is free. Ignoring advice that doesn't apply to you is also free.

[Starbuck_II]

Who needs flight when you have dimensional door? At least that is what my epic cleric used all the time. You teleport on top of the flying creature, pin its wings back. You and he plummet, and he takes all the damage when you both hit the ground.

Only if you ignore the rules. DD stops all actions afterward. Teleport works though, but Dimension Door doesn't allow actions.

[deuxhero]

See if you can trade flurry for skirmish or such, because flurry+improved speed is one of the key show offs of how synergyless the Monk is (faster move speed and an ability that you can't use after moving).

[Shadowbane]

So, I'll be playing this character from Level 6 into level 30. Long campaign, the best kind!

His name is Zane, and he didn't come from a monastery. I'm playing this similar to Exalted, actually, since he IS Exalted. He was always a disciplined young man, and was so devout he took a sacred vow of poverty. He worked with a paladin named Belisarius Graeme and a diviner named Aladar Moonshadow for some time, hunting down a group of elves known as the Maern'Rretynn that had slaughtered the Elven House of Os'Taesia.

They were, however, eventually ambushed and during the ambush, Zane's real monk powers and appeared and the rest is predictable.

So, starting at level six...

Zane, 6th level human saint monk. Lawful good.

Stats:
Str: 16
Dex: 18
con: 17
Int: 14
Wis: 20
Cha: 17

Feats:
Improved Trip
Combat Reflexes
Improved Initiative
Improved Unarmed Strike
Stunning Fist
Sacred Vow
Scared Vow of Poverty
Sanctify Ki Strike
Holy Ki Strike (Bonus feat)
Sanctify Natural Attack (Bonus feat)
Touch of Golden Ice (Bonus feat)

...Seems ok so far!