Beguiler vs "Avenger"

[quiet1mi]

I am looking to play in a level 10 campaign with a few friends... I was going to play as a Grey-Elf that was a guerrilla fighter in defense of his homeland during the most recent war in my friends campaign, His guerrilla cell has disbanded and now he is a mercenary to "pay the bills"....

I was wondering, from a strict mechanics perspective, who would make a better guerrilla fighter... I am thinking the Avenger because I can assassinate sentries and be somewhat helpful in combat (other than being a buff bot), with the low level enchantment and illusion spells to grant me the opportunity to ambush unsuspecting targets.

Where a beguiler could easily infiltrate a compound and slit someone's throat in the middle of the night, sabotage equipment and "Brainwash" people with a small amount of time and little resistance.

I am not looking for who is more powerful, a level 10 beguiler or a level 6 beguiler/ level 4 avenger I am merely asking from a strict mechanics perspective who fulfills my fluff the best.

[Myshlaevsky]

Have you thought about Spellthief? I think a straight Beguiler is probably considerably stronger than one multiclassed into Avenger.

I don't really understand what you mean about mechanics fitting the fluff - it seems like you're going to be creating your own background fluff anyway, so why does it matter what the exact fluff concerning the character is?

[Kylarra]

I'd say just go with the straight beguiler, or maybe pick up a single level in a PrC (like Mindbender) to move your learnings around.

[icefractal]

Straight Beguiler seems like your best best. As for assassinating sentries, Deep Slumber + CdG works quite nicely. Plus you have the right spells to make your escape if you get in over your head - useful for a guerilla.

Also, as Beguilers have Use Magic Device, you can supplement your limited range of spells with scrolls or wands. Minor Creation (for poison) could be devastating for sabotage, and for that matter, killing sentries.

[quiet1mi]

What I mean is what would be a more believable Guerrilla warrior for an elven army? A beguiler, a master of Illusion and enchantment (great Infiltrator) or a beguiler/Avenger (great assassin)...

With a Beguiler, my combat potential is reduced to Whelm, Buffing the party with Haste and Great Hope, or avoiding combat all together with Illusions, Ghost sound, invisibility, and silence. The damage potential for my character would be limited to the 5d6 provided by the whelm spell, 1d10 from a heavy crossbow, and Save or Suck spells (provided that they do not save)

With an Avenger, my combat potential is greatly increased with Sneak Attack (Now allowing Ambush Feats), Death Attack (Great for a Single Sniper or taking out a sentry, because of the high Intelligence makes for a high Save DC) and the ability to use poison without a risk to myself (I know that poisons are not cost effective but are great for fluff, and for spending excess gold), An extra Attack (+6/+1 BAB), I may have less Illusion and Enchantment Abilities but with Practiced Spell caster and a little ingenuity I can use lesser spells to secure the ambush... I know that a full beguiler could also secure the ambush but would have less to do during combat...

The fluff I have been talking about is... My character is an EX-Soldier that was part of an infamous unit of guerilla fighters that threw the conventional Geneva Convention out the window, the war that he fought in was decades ago yet is still bitter about about his side's loss. Now he is a contract mercenary, living off of adventures and their need for someone of his skill set.

I wanted to know if a full Beguiler or a Beguiler/Avenger Mix would better fit my established background story.

I am not sure about the feats I would take or how I would distribute skills but I do know I would like to throw some points in disable device, Craft (Trapmaking), Use Rope, and perhaps Craft (Alchemy) (not sure if it would be alchemy) for his knowledge of poisons... As for Feats I know for a fact one of the feats that I would take would be Darkstalker from the Lord's of Madness as, when combined with "Magic Aura" (it can take away auras as well as add them), it will allow me to sneak past guards put in place to detect invisible or otherwise magical infiltrators...

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Guerrillas do a lot more than just killing people, so I guess the question is what kind of guerrilla you are going for.

I mean, some spy, some sabotage, some assassinate, and some kill people in combat...

[Seatbelt]

You dont need to do damage to win with a beguiler. Focus on getting your save DCs up there a little and Color Spray, Blindness, and other save or loose spells will win the day. I have an 8th level gnome beguiler build that has yet to actually kill anything. (starting from level 1) He routinely shuts down encounters so his friends/lackies can finish the job.

[Riffington]

The question should actually be a little easier to answer than presented: is your character an April Fools joke?

[Kaiyanwang]

The question should actually be a little easier to answer than presented: is your character an April Fools joke?

See, joke or not, I use it in my campaign and works nicely..

Think about it in these terms: the Avenger equals to the DM that says:

My dear players, I just invented a new PrC for my setting. Is like the assassin, but you must follow a superior authority and you screw evil spells...

I don't think this is a revolution.

[Killer Angel]

I am looking to play in a level 10 campaign with a few friends... I was going to play as a Grey-Elf that was a guerrilla fighter in defense of his homeland during the most recent war

I was wondering, from a strict mechanics perspective, who would make a better guerrilla fighter... I am thinking the Avenger because I can assassinate sentries and be somewhat helpful in combat (other than being a buff bot), with the low level enchantment and illusion spells to grant me the opportunity to ambush unsuspecting targets.

Where a beguiler could easily infiltrate a compound and slit someone's throat in the middle of the night, sabotage equipment and "Brainwash" people with a small amount of time and little resistance.

For classic guerrilla (hit and run, sabotage, vanish before enemy reacts), beguiler is slightly better.
But you were defending your homeland. Avenger has a name that suits better.

[KellKheraptis]

Hmm...you want an elven assassin? See if your DM will approve the Pathfinder version of Arcane Archer. The PF Eldritch Knight would be nice too, but isn't vital. Go Wizard 8/Arcane Archer 6/Eldritch Knight 6, and be sure to snag the usual gish abilities. Why does this rock, especially for an assassin? Ever seen a high level target in an AMF get hit by a Spell Matrix with 3 sanctum orb of X? No save/No SR/Works going into an AMF, and you won't miss with the Dex of an elf as an archer. You end up with 16 BAB/17 CL, 9th level spells, and are deadly at all ranges. Since you're an elf, you qualify for both Elf Dilettante and Areni Focus, allowing you to snag Hide and Move Silent, plus giving you access to every skill in the game. One spell later and you've got at least a +18+stat to the skill, and that's overkill by far. Wanna ramp it up a notch or two? In lieu of getting PF stuff, look up Build #8 of the Dragoon Handbook (currently on 339, but might be here too, Endarire's I believe). You assassinate by controlling the battlefield and then when the moment is right, leaping out of the sky and impaling your target with a polearm for dragonsplatting damage. Like, if you had a rod of greater quicken, you could one-shot the tarrasque as a matter of routine. Not to mention, polearm elves just scream royal guard, so it can even fit the fluff of now being a mercenary if you retired/got kicked out/killed the king because he was a weakling/etc.

[Kurald Galain]

With a Beguiler, my combat potential is reduced to Whelm, Buffing the party with Haste and Great Hope

(1) beguilers are highly effective in combat, and (2) if the lack of damage output bothers you, take a reserve feat, or take a level in spellthief and go Arcane Trickster or Unseen Seer.

[icefractal]

Beguilers can certainly kill people, if they want to. Deep Slumber/Hold Person + CdG; it's the ultimate sneak attack. Now often your teammates will be the ones actually delivering said CdG, but that doesn't mean you don't have damage potential - eliminating someone from combat essentially has a damage potential of their total hp.

If you're into poison, see UMD + Minor Creation - cost problems solved.

[Myrmex]

Don't forget that you can use charm & dominate to "convince" enemies to kill each other.

Confusion is a great effect, as is the spell that makes all the ghost warriors. It's not listed in the spell, but if you look around on line, they all get touch attacks for 1d8 damage. I once did over 100 damage in a fight with that spell, since our opponent was a raging barbarian 3 armed monster.

The feat Versatile Spellcaster means you can get early access to high level spells, too.

If you are really looking for damage, use shadow evocation & a killer gnome build.

[Leewei]

Using a Beguiler for direct damage subdual effects is a bad idea. Beguilers are all about clever tactics. Fighting an archer? Ready an action to cast legion of sentinels when the bow-wielding sap tries to plink someone. At 6th level, you'll probably end up inflicting 8d8+8 damage from the ensuing AoO.

A few levels later, you get winners such as confusion and incite riot. Cast these back-to-back and your enemies will shred each other for you. Rainbow pattern followed by a long walk off a short pier -- or maybe a long cliff is another great tactic.