Bringing up a problem

[jamminjelly]

So I'm very new to the whole DMing gig and I need a some advice:

I want to talk to a player about a problem I've been having with him. He plays a chaotic evil half-orc barbarian that I stupidly allowed before I realized that people justify being evil by being a jerk.

I think he is being detrimental to the game, as I can't write up anything without having to consider whether or not he is going to rob/attack/kill/bully it. The other character don't ever stand up to his antics so there is nobody to keep him in check. How should I tell this to him and what sort ways can we compromise?

[Myou]

Tell him in private out of character that he's disrupting the game with his bad behaviour, and ask him to stop, becaue he's spoiling your fun.

[sadi]

If he won't change after talking to out of game...Nothing says every encounter has to be exactly party level, it's expected that you run into stuff thats +1,+2, and even very rarely +3 or +4. Make a paladin of some race he'd never expect (orc or such) and wait for him to attempt to have his fun with it. A couple high level smite evils might help with an attitude adjustment. Or if you don't specifically keep him alive he dies and either makes a new character that isn't disruptive to the game or he goes elsewhere.

[Starbuck_II]

So I'm very new to the whole DMing gig and I need a some advice:

I want to talk to a player about a problem I've been having with him. He plays a chaotic evil half-orc barbarian that I stupidly allowed before I realized that people justify being evil by being a jerk.

I think he is being detrimental to the game, as I can't write up anything without having to consider whether or not he is going to rob/attack/kill/bully it. The other character don't ever stand up to his antics so there is nobody to keep him in check. How should I tell this to him and what sort ways can we compromise?

Can you explain what he has actually done in game? Like list his actions that you dislike in total (at least as much as you can remember).

[jamminjelly]

Can you explain what he has actually done in game? Like list his actions that you dislike in total (at least as much as you can remember).

Well, in our last session he was offered a free train ticket if he stopped a squabble between a guard (from the overzealous empire the party is going to) and a train passenger. After fighting the guard the barbarian tries to intimidate the passenger to try and mug him. The passenger says he has no money (hence he was arguing to get on the train) and the barbarian asks him about his business in the city they are all going to. After that the barbarian intimidates him again, saying he will kill him if he doesn't help the party.

He does other things like, try and steal from shopkeepers, attack the manager of an opponents team in a tournament, fight with town guards and wonder aloud why they are so strong (in a town based off of training adventurers no less). Just to name a few.

[jamminjelly]

If he keeps acting out in evil ways I can just make a paladin hit him with a mark of justice ritual but obviously I would want to talk to him and let him know I have a problem with his character first and foremost.

[Cicciograna]

If nothing works, remember that DM vs PC is a straightforward fight. You throw at him some adventure hook and he decides to smash it? Be that hook an 18th level Wizard: the fight should last 1-2 rounds, and he won't be able to blame it on you, since you projected the adventure with the idea that the Wizard shouldn't have been attacked...

I used to have a fellow player that acted in this way: our adventuring cycle finished when the other players attacked him and some of us (and him) died, an argue started out of game and it was hard to make peace. Settle these problems as fast as possible: they cause only troubles.

[kjones]

I feel that this is a matter best dealt with out of game, rather than in game. Simply tell him that he needs to change his behavior, or he won't be welcome in your game.

I understand that if the player is your friend, it might be hard to threaten to kick them out. But if they're a real friend, they'll recognize that their behavior is making things un-fun for you.

[bosssmiley]

So I'm very new to the whole DMing gig and I need a some advice:

I want to talk to a player about a problem I've been having with him. He plays a chaotic evil half-orc barbarian that I stupidly allowed before I realized that people justify being evil by being a jerk.

I think he is being detrimental to the game, as I can't write up anything without having to consider whether or not he is going to rob/attack/kill/bully it. The other character don't ever stand up to his antics so there is nobody to keep him in check. How should I tell this to him and what sort ways can we compromise?

Let the character take the full consequences of his player's choices.

He wants to wage war on the world? Fine. But the world has him seriously outnumbered. If he refuses to act like a civilised person, then eventually civilised people will want nothing to do with him. Word of Thug McHalfOrc's antics will get around and innkeepers, traders and temples will turn him away. The lowly will slip poison into his rations, drug his horse, heckle and throw dung at him in the street, etc. Victims of his thefts, assaults and murders will have bounties taken out on him, or send him off on wild goose chases.

If the player has the sense he was born with he'll moderate his character's behaviour. If not, no great loss. Just rinse and repeat until the lesson sinks in.

[Vangor]

I don't see his actions being terribly problematic. As others have suggested, the simplest solution is to keep him in line with what keeps every villain in line; have tough local authorities, give merchants powerful protections, and create resourceful and established characters.

Of course, this should not be done to stop his performing any evil actions simply because this is not what you planned. This is how d&d tends to function with the party not doing anything hoped for. Players will react absolutely different to separate situations including questions asked, tone taken, suspicions raised, and similar. Usually, though, villains in society are not stupid enough to draw attention to themselves constantly for such mundane reasons.

Now, you do mention his wondering aloud why the guards are strong. I imagine he is simply being evil in order to assume his actions mean no consequences? Correct him outside of game, or correct him in game. For instance, a small halfling village may seem rather simple to pillage and raze; probably no adventuring types, little in the way of guards, and not much of a reason for others to visit. However, gold dragons often protect such villages, perhaps walking amongst the little folk in an alternate form. Perfectly legitimate reason for an Old Gold Dragon to descend from the sky and leave the Barbarian an ashen husk.

[Tyndmyr]

Agreed with those who suggest using consequences of his action. I've used custom reputation systems before, but it needn't be that complex. Have him later need something from someone he abused. If he threatens someone who is significantly more powerful than him, have him pay the price. If players can rob NPCs, NPCs can rob players.

You can always have him meet up with someone is who is intelligently evil, too. Perhaps in passing, as a backhanded tip on how to play evil.

[jamminjelly]

Agreed with those who suggest using consequences of his action. I've used custom reputation systems before, but it needn't be that complex. Have him later need something from someone he abused. If he threatens someone who is significantly more powerful than him, have him pay the price. If players can rob NPCs, NPCs can rob players.

You can always have him meet up with someone is who is intelligently evil, too. Perhaps in passing, as a backhanded tip on how to play evil.

I was actually thinking of having the person he just tried to mug rob him in his sleep. If he keeps abusing intimidate after that, then I can always take away his belt that lets him use his strength as his intimidate mod. That should spell it out clearly if he decides that he still doesn't heed my warnings.

[Lysander]

Using DM fiat to squash an unruly player just makes them bitter and more disruptive. I suggest just talking to him and saying "Hey, I like most of the stuff you've been doing but spending too much time on lawbreaking is taking up time we could be using on moving the plot forward and killing the BBEG. I'm going to add some situations where being a murderous brute is called for though, and that'll be the time for your orc to shine."

Which is really what you should be doing. If you allow a big scary intimidating orc in a good party have some situations that require a big scary intimidating orc. If you give him actual bad guys to rob from and intimidate then he won't turn on hapless shopkeepers.

[Temet Nosce]

Alright, first I'm going to cover the thing I think will make this issue worse. Screwing him over using DM fiat. Do not send in an arbitrarily high level fight to kill him off, or otherwise simply set out to hurt him. This is just going to infuriate the player OOC, which in the long run will cause more problems.

Second, what you could do... The consequences angle is good, so long as you stick to the rules and try to think make consequences which will actually hold up in game. Keep it to stuff which makes sense. Most NPCs are not going to be aware of petty bullying, and won't react to his past actions. However, attempts to publicly assault people may very well be met with physical force (just make sure you have reason for powerful NPCs to be there... unless he's incredibly low level or you use a setting with large quantities of mid level NPCs town guards aren't going to even touch him). Similarly speaking - if he's dumb enough to publicly rob or piss off anyone rich/powerful (which, odds are good he will if he actually robs anyone worth robbing) he's unlikely to live long enough to regret it.

Also, talk to him out of game. This isn't evil, it's petty. A good aligned character could act the way you're describing, and most NPCs are reasonably going to want to flick him like an annoying little fly. It's disruptive, bothersome, and isn't even actually related to his alignment. The best that could come out of this is probably an agreement between the two of you for some sort of life changing event IC that caused his character to act more maturely.

Oh and... Don't allow CE if this causes you problems. Someone RPing it closer to the actual description would probably give you apoplexy.

[jamminjelly]

Alright, first I'm going to cover the thing I think will make this issue worse. Screwing him over using DM fiat. Do not send in an arbitrarily high level fight to kill him off, or otherwise simply set out to hurt him. This is just going to infuriate the player OOC, which in the long run will cause more problems.

Second, what you could do... The consequences angle is good, so long as you stick to the rules and try to think make consequences which will actually hold up in game. Keep it to stuff which makes sense. Most NPCs are not going to be aware of petty bullying, and won't react to his past actions. However, attempts to publicly assault people may very well be met with physical force (just make sure you have reason for powerful NPCs to be there... unless he's incredibly low level or you use a setting with large quantities of mid level NPCs town guards aren't going to even touch him). Similarly speaking - if he's dumb enough to publicly rob or piss off anyone rich/powerful (which, odds are good he will if he actually robs anyone worth robbing) he's unlikely to live long enough to regret it.

Also, talk to him out of game. This isn't evil, it's petty. A good aligned character could act the way you're describing, and most NPCs are reasonably going to want to flick him like an annoying little fly. It's disruptive, bothersome, and isn't even actually related to his alignment. The best that could come out of this is probably an agreement between the two of you for some sort of life changing event IC that caused his character to act more maturely.

Oh and... Don't allow CE if this causes you problems. Someone RPing it closer to the actual description would probably give you apoplexy.

Thanks. I know I wont get him to change his evil ways and become good aligned but if I can get him to be more like Belkar, evil but smart about it, I would be happy. Getting him to see the consequences for his actions would be a good idea too.

[Mando Knight]

but if I can get him to be more like Belkar,

Belkar's a bad baseline: he's just as much a jerk as your player is. He's only useful before he started faking character development because there was something or someone strong enough to keep him in check nearby. Even after he decided to "help" people, he's still nasty about it.

[Tyndmyr]

Belkar is an evil character that mostly works with the party, though. And takes pains to get away with his evilness. This makes him a much, much better character than the stock chaotic stupid char.

Sure, he may occasionally still throw a wrench in the works, but if he's like belkar, it's in an amusing, clever way. Exactly the way players should be causing havoc, if they choose to. =)

[EndlessWrath]

Evil alignment.. I've only seen a few PC's work in a party (good campaign) with it. The reason people don't play evil campaigns, is the party usually backstabs each other by the end of the game. True story

Evil characters usually only do well if 1 of 2 things occur.
1) the party doesn't know the character is evil. Which usually means the player has to "act good" in public as to not draw attention to self.
2) Is evil, but is either restricted in actions or is useful enough that the party will tolerate as long as he doesn't break to many laws.

Evil players are a big headache for dms. They're designed to break the rules and 9/10 won't follow the story ark at all less it has some benefit for them.

That being said, bring it up with him. tell him exactly what you meant. Have him either atone for his ways and at least become CN or move toward rerolling a neutral - good character. i mean, good doesnt mean you can't steal or kill people. its all about how and why and who. if the player doesnt agree be firm with him. your not allowing evil characters anymore. if he doesn't like it, he can run his own games. Your the DM, the game cannot run without you. You don't like how he runs his characters, thats understandable.

if you don't want to do that...be reasonable. If he commits evil acts, people will find out. are there police? did he kill a guard? what happens with the other guards? etc. don't single him out...but if continues running orc barbarian evil cheese...let him face realistic consequences. arrested by 20 town guard? oops, he spends years in jail! or is the society an eye for an eye thing? Maybe they put him to death? he can try to break out..or reroll...or change his attitude..or leave. better now then later

[Curmudgeon]

Evil characters can be perfectly functional in a mixed party, as long as nobody else goes out of their way to cause trouble. (I'm thinking zealous Paladins here.) There are lots of ways to play Evil, but Stupid Evil is my least favorite. Stupid Evil has poor survivability. A crafty Evil character won't attack party members, because do-gooders are the perfect accessories to the Evil character's self-interest. You can easily manipulate do-gooders to help you out for nothing more than to try to "do good deeds" (and since there are a zillion bleeding heart causes, you can find an appropriate motivator), while you're in it for the loot.

Dragon snatched up some poor orphans for a snack? Oh, those poor orphans! We must help them! So you get a support team to help you kill the dragon. Then the do-gooders look around for orphans to free, while you cherry-pick the best of the dragon hoard. Why would you want to cause trouble for those nice folks? They're good doggies your friends.

[Sliver]

I don't see the problem really.. He is acting evil, but as of your examples, its toward the world. As long as he doesn't ruin the party's fun, his actions should have IC consequences, and realistic ones. Not an ancient dragon attacking him for intimidating a random shopkeeper.
CE is all about getting what you want, when you want it, its written right on the can.. and it sounds to me like the player is doing that without ruining the other players fun..
Sounds to me (from the examples you gave) like a good player actually, playing a CE like a brute, even having confirmed it with you. You didn't check what it is about and went straight here to ask how to deal with that...

First thing, just tell him you have problems with how he plays and doesn't want evil characters that mess with your world. Then tell him that you can work an in-game reason for a change if he wants, and allow him to re-construct a bit (you don't take intimidate if you plan on petting and homeless and being all nice and fluffy.. orc)

[sambo.]

Let the character take the full consequences of his player's choices.

He wants to wage war on the world? Fine. But the world has him seriously outnumbered. If he refuses to act like a civilised person, then eventually civilised people will want nothing to do with him. Word of Thug McHalfOrc's antics will get around and innkeepers, traders and temples will turn him away. The lowly will slip poison into his rations, drug his horse, heckle and throw dung at him in the street, etc. Victims of his thefts, assaults and murders will have bounties taken out on him, or send him off on wild goose chases.

If the player has the sense he was born with he'll moderate his character's behaviour. If not, no great loss. Just rinse and repeat until the lesson sinks in.

^
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that is very good advice.

any DM vs PC fight is a very one sided affair. "oh noez, that "commoner" you attempted to bully is actually a lvl19 Kensai who has just decapitated you because you have no ranks in Iaijutsu Focus.

i generally don't allow Chaotic Evil characters in my campaigns for this very reason: people act like jerks and justify it by saying "but i am playing my alignment". from memory, i only allowed it once and that was because the player was very experienced and realised that just because he's CE, doesn't mean he has to behead everyone who jostles him in a market place.

how do the other players feel about it?

[shadow_archmagi]

This isn't something to solve ingame; ultimately, you have two options.

1. Make him change his ways to fit with the group better
2. Change the entire group to fit with his ways! Evil campaigns can be fun too

[oxinabox]

Take out BoED.
Vow of powerty, vow, of peace, vow of nonviolence.
Vow of ...
Monk y/ Bard x (perfom speach) (y<<x)
pile the bonuses on Diplomamncy and Sense motive.

Just as a random npc.
Barb swings, monk steps to the left.
calmy with arms folded.: "Calm down, be at peace"

player trys to rob monk: "I have no possessions, all that i had i have given away, it helps the soul to be at rest."


When the Barb rages, use Calm emotions.
"No need to get angery, we can talk this out."

[Choco]

If the guy is actually just playing his character, as I am sure he's claiming, then you can in fact handle this in game. Just do what has been suggested so far, and deal with him the same way DM's must deal with chaotic stupid characters: consequences.

From my experience, players will continue to do <x> action as long as they keep getting rewarded for it. If they keep getting what they want by doing that, then why should they stop? This character clearly needs to be reminded that he aint the top dog on the planet, and thus can't go around doing whatever he wants. Have some good NPC adventuring party walking by next time he's assaulting someone, and if the fight don't kill him I'm sure it would at least drive the point home. Possibly some jail time as well?

[Godskook]

Belkar's a bad baseline: he's just as much a jerk as your player is. He's only useful before he started faking character development because there was something or someone strong enough to keep him in check nearby. Even after he decided to "help" people, he's still nasty about it.

Personally, I consider Belkar to be one of the most functional members of the party, beating out Roy and V rather easily.

[valadil]

This is a social problem, not a mechanical one. Tell him you're a new DM and you can't yet handle a character so disruptive. You thought you could, but it's not working out and his character is detrimental to the game. Ask him to roll a friendlier character or leave the group.

If you beat him down with paladins he'll see that as a challenge. A geas or mark of justice is asking for loopholes to be found. Don't play that game.

[Jastermereel]

You could throw him a role-play challenge and throw a Belt of Opposite Alignment his way. It's a bit underhanded and wouldn't really solve the problem with the player in the long run, but it might buy you a break for a little while.

[holywhippet]

Make the rest of the group get involved. If he is doing all these things then they will be guilty by association. Have merchants refuse to serve them, innkeepers kick them out etc. If it starts to inconvinience them they will tolerate his crap a lot less.

[Mando Knight]

If this gets way out of hand, have them meet up with an old man with a few canaries.



...No, that's definitely not a Lawful Good god-dragon and his seven ancient wyrms.

[oxinabox]

. Tell him you're a new DM and you can't yet handle a character so disruptive. You thought you could, but it's not working out and his character is detrimental to the game.

That's a great point, "It's me, not you".
admitting (even if it's a lie) that you're just not good enough,
to deal with it, looks good, and will keep his respect.
My Bad, i shouldn't have told you you could do that, i didn't think you would do so well.

I was dming a group, and they wanted to play evil. they couldn't really pull it off they were naturally too good, and came out acting neutral. (they'ld never played before)
I invited a new player (and experianced rper (and a optimised) to join and half encouraged him to play chaotic evil (something i knew he RP'ed really well).
He played something very blood thristy, I don't want money, i fight for the pleasure of killing.
My Bad