Becoming immune to dominate and diplomancy [3.5]

[Heliomance]

I think I found a way to become utterly immune to any attempt to make you act against your nature, up to and including diplomancy. It involves the rarely-used intelligent item rules. See, what you do is you make an intelligent item whose purpose is the same as yours, and you give it as high an ego score as you can possibly swing. Normally, his isn't a problem, as the item is perfectly happy to go along with you. However, if coerced by any means into acting against your - and by extension, its - purpose, it will immediately contest for dominance and attempt to take over your body. If it succeeds, which it should, given you pumped its ego, you will be entirely under the item's control, not the enemy caster's or diplomancer's.

[Foryn Gilnith]

The Diplomancer just takes another full-round action to Diplomance the intelligent item, then, since it can hear and it's effectively a creature... And really, diplomancy is all you have to worry about since mind-affecting immunity is so, so much cheaper to get than a sky-high Ego item.

[veti]

And that's assuming you can write down your character's "purpose" as a formal statement. And that you're happy to make that a lifelong commitment, and you don't want to vary from it. Ever.

Big commitment, that. It'd work for some character types (some paladins, possibly) - but then all it takes is some surly DM to rule that if you're only obeying because your free-will is being overruled, you're in violation of your oaths anyway...

[Ernir]

Contingent Deafness.

"Sorry, Mr. Diplo, I just can't hear you!" *Attack*

[Boci]

Contingent Deafness.

"Sorry, Mr. Diplo, I just can't hear you!" *Attack*

Then you meet an exemplar. "I just can't hear you!, but dam, the way you jump,"

[Johel]

I think I found a way to become utterly immune to any attempt to make you act against your nature, up to and including diplomancy. It involves the rarely-used intelligent item rules. See, what you do is you make an intelligent item whose purpose is the same as yours, and you give it as high an ego score as you can possibly swing. Normally, his isn't a problem, as the item is perfectly happy to go along with you. However, if coerced by any means into acting against your - and by extension, its - purpose, it will immediately contest for dominance and attempt to take over your body. If it succeeds, which it should, given you pumped its ego, you will be entirely under the item's control, not the enemy caster's or diplomancer's.

Or you find yourself a "headband of Mind blank".
Custom item, yes, but that's probably cheaper than an intelligent item that can potentially possess you if you don't do as it says.
That would be 120.000 gp for the item.
CL 15 x SL 8 x 2.000 gp / 2 (24h) = 120.000 gp

*don't know about the diplomancer, by the way.

[Kelpstrand]

Or you find yourself a "headband of Mind blank".
Custom item, yes, but that's probably cheaper than an intelligent item that can potentially possess you if you don't do as it says.
That would be 120.000 gp for the item.
CL 15 x SL 8 x 2.000 gp / 2 (24h) = 120.000 gp

The issue is that Mindblank doesn't work on diplomacy.

But there is an actual non custom item in MiC that grants Mindblank when worn.

[Volkov]

Have powerful golems set to kill anyone who makes a diplomacy check other than you.

[Foryn Gilnith]

But there is an actual non custom item in MiC that grants Mindblank when worn.

Technically, it's Psionic Mindblank. Slightly different wording. A bit confusing. And it takes up the face, not the head. But yeah.

[Eldariel]

Diplomacy specifically precludes it from being used against PCs so it's not a problem for your character; just everyone else in the world.

[d13]

Diplomacy specifically precludes it from being used against PCs so it's not a problem for your character; just everyone else in the world.

This.

Being a PC makes you immune to any Diplomancy, unless you houserule it xD

[Choco]

Diplomacy specifically precludes it from being used against PCs so it's not a problem for your character; just everyone else in the world.

Yup, exactly, but please do continue this discussion, cause as a DM it would be useful....

[Ormur]

If you're a DM you should just make up your own rules about diplomancy. No matter how convincing, charming and eloquent you are you can't expect to solve all problems by talking. If your NPC's really don't want to do something, say the BBEG deciding abandoning the last part of his foolproof plan for world domination, you could just say that nothing could possibly convince them to do it, which is quite plausible. At least make your PC's or NPC's come up with a very good alternative for the guy you're diplomancing.

[Volkov]

Increase your mental scores, it will help defend you. I think.

[Ravens_cry]

The skill Diplomacy can't be used on players.

You can change the attitudes of others (nonplayer characters) with a successful Diplomacy check

[Choco]

If you're a DM you should just make up your own rules about diplomancy. No matter how convincing, charming and eloquent you are you can't expect to solve all problems by talking. If your NPC's really don't want to do something, say the BBEG deciding abandoning the last part of his foolproof plan for world domination, you could just say that nothing could possibly convince them to do it, which is quite plausible. At least make your PC's or NPC's come up with a very good alternative for the guy you're diplomancing.

I've done that actually, practically neutered diplomacy. It isn't enough to just roll, you actually gotta present a compelling argument. I ruled that the roll represents how well you made said argument, but you still had to come up with it yourself. And of course some people could NEVER be convinced to do certain things, for instance ya can't seduce the leader of the church of Heironeous (unlike in real life, in D&D gods actually play an active role in peoples lives after all... I'm sure if you were your god's right-hand man, you would think twice...). Even then, all the diplomacy roll does is give you a modifier to how favorably your target is likely to view you...

That seemed to work fine, but I am willing to bet that the munchkins and rule nazis would probably crucify me for that.

[lsfreak]

I've done that actually, practically neutered diplomacy. It isn't enough to just roll, you actually gotta present a compelling argument.

Do you hand your rogue a lock and a pick and make him pick it? How about making the fighter actually jump up those 10 feet? Chuck the halfling in a river? Hand the dwarf a gem and make him identify it?

If no, then you shouldn't punish a character for not being eloquent in life when his character can clearly do better than he.

[SoD]

You shouldn't punish a character for not being eloquent in life when his character can clearly do better than he.

But they should make the effort. It's this little thing called roleplaying. In, y'know, a roleplaying game. Funny how things like that work, innit?

[Thurbane]

If your'e evil, and can take a hit to WIS, two feats render you immune to mind effects. Deformity (Madness) in exemplars of evil: has Willing Deformity as a prereq, and inflicts a -4 penalty to WIS.

[lsfreak]

But they should make the effort. It's this little thing called roleplaying. In, y'know, a roleplaying game. Funny how things like that work, innit?

Sorry, I suppose I didn't read close enough nor made what I meant clear enough.

Roleplaying is encouraged. But you should not punish a character because the player happens to not be able to do something the character can. A good argument by the player may warrant circumstance bonuses, but never penalties (unless the player purposely makes a horrible argument).

This does not mean that it can't go wrong, for example when the king most definitely wants X but would never do Y. Whether the player roleplays out the argument or simply says that his character argues that the king should get X by doing Y, it will fail either way. But if the king really wants X and the player just happens to suck at speaking, but gives a very general idea of what he's doing to convince the king ("it'll keep the peasants from uprising and the nobles are too busy to care"), there should be no penalty.

[Siosilvar]

Just be a PC (diplomacy auto-fail) and grab a continuous Protection From Evil for approximately 1 * 1 * 2000 * 2 = 4000 GP.

Although most DMs will probably charge you for the Deflection and save bonuses,

Deflection: 2 * 2 * 2000 = 8000 GP, possibly modified because it applies only to Evil creatures.

Save bonus: 2 * 2 * 1000 = 4000 GP, possibly modified because it applies only to Evil creatures.

[hr]

For about 10000 GP, you can gain complete immunity to "any attempt to possess the warded creature or to exercise mental control over the creature" and contact by non-good summoned creatures.

[LurkerInPlayground]

I've heard a good explanation that Diplomancy is not as powerful as thought.

For example, you can make the evil warlord your friend. That means he likes you and thinks you make a cracking good drinking fellow.

But there's only so much he'll do for a friend. He isn't going to stop his plans for world conquest or stop sacrificing the virgins to his evil god.

[Eldariel]

Yup, exactly, but please do continue this discussion, cause as a DM it would be useful....

Well, y'know, there are the letters "PC" in "NPC" too...

I've heard a good explanation that Diplomancy is not as powerful as thought.

For example, you can make the evil warlord your friend. That means he likes you and thinks you make a cracking good drinking fellow.

But there's only so much he'll do for a friend. He isn't going to stop his plans for world conquest or stop sacrificing the virgins to his evil god.

The principal issue is that it allows you to sidestep any encounter. Any. Yes, even an evil god is going to bow down to a Diplomacy-check by the rules. And that's before going into the Epic Uses which are easy enough to reach pre-epic.

[Olo Demonsbane]

I've heard a good explanation that Diplomancy is not as powerful as thought.

For example, you can make the evil warlord your friend. That means he likes you and thinks you make a cracking good drinking fellow.

But there's only so much he'll do for a friend. He isn't going to stop his plans for world conquest or stop sacrificing the virgins to his evil god.

The thing is, then you make him fanatic. Its not that hard to do, really.

Now he worships YOU as a god.

[Ravens_cry]

The principal issue is that it allows you to sidestep any encounter. Any. Yes, even an evil god is going to bow down to a Diplomacy-check by the rules.

Ignoring the ridiculousness of such a situation, there is still mindless creatures for whom all those pretty words are so much vibrations in the air. So saying 'any', even by munchkin RAW, is patently false.

[Hawriel]

Diplomacy only works so far. If you demand somthing totaly obsurd or against the other persons nature then it will fail. NPC are not slaves to your skill.

An effort must be made by the player to at least explane the terms or intended goal of the character. The player does not have to be Ben Franklin in his explenation. Although if they say somting stupid or totaly unreasonable it should be factored in.

I always thought that diplomacy should be an apposed roll agaisnt the NPCs diplomacy skill.

[Ravens_cry]

But that would mean against the 90 percent of creatures or NPC's who don't have the Diplomacy skill, who have no reason to have it, are even more push overs.

[Hawriel]

I dont use class skills in my games. The only skills I think are uncommon enough to have class restrictions are arcane knowledge, spellcraft and lockpicking. There is no reason why fighters or commoners could not be a good diplomate. Monsters who are intelligents get NPC or class levels, depending on who they are. If they are intelligent beings with a social structure, then they will have individuals who can negotiate.

[LurkerInPlayground]

The thing is, then you make him fanatic. Its not that hard to do, really.

Now he worships YOU as a god.

Fair enough.

The argument presented here came in a thread that involved an opinion that Rich's fix is excessive.

By which token: remove the fanatic category. Although I suppose that's little comfort due to anybody who wants to point out the rule is broken as-written.

But then again, it's equally absurd to want to create an intelligent item for the express purpose of loop-holing around Diplomacy.

Still, the notion of creating a magical tool to remain "incorruptible" by magic makes for an interesting story hook.

[Sophismata]

Treat the fanatic attitude as a mind-affecting enchantment effect for purposes of immunity

The next highest attitude is "helpful", and I'd rule that a helpful villain might still kill you, he'll just be nicer about it.