Need help corrupting a Paladin (3.5)

[Jazarkrazaj]

OK, so after a few backhanded lies, planting and later removing evidence, and generally using the groups Paladin as a walking stash without her knowledge (sleight of hand +20 is fun), things have gotten to an interesting point.

My gestalted Tiefling lvl 9 Ninja/Shadowcaster has realized that he's in love with the Paladin (Gestalted Aasamir lvl 15 Paladin/Cleric, go figure). The problem stems from a recent group bumble, that lead to a chain of events that the Paladin was not witness/involved in.

As a result, my Ninja has stranded a Princess, and the groups Wizard in an Arcane Prison Dimension (After killing the groups Psycic Warrior in 1 on 1 combat), and is now working for the a 1.5 Millenia Old Evil Spellcaster (not determined yet what he is). As a result of what happened at teh Arena, why Ninja went from Chaotic Neutral to Lawful Evil for pretty much selling outhis friends and his soul.

Now, he want's the Paladin with him, and has been promised a free wish if he can corrupt the Paladin, and turn her into a Blackguard. The Demons have already given the Paladin a few 'love tokens' on behalf of my ninja to help things along.

So now, we have to figure out how to corrupt her, so the player can continue on in the now Evil Campain, without having to fall back on an older character, or making a new one.

Current group:

Male Tiefling Ninja/Shadowcaster 8//Shadowblade 2
Male Sandgiant/Werebear (Runt, with slightly diminished stats) Fighter/Barbarian 3
Female Maenad Bard/Wilder lvl 10
Female Elf/partially Vampiric (long story) Ranger/Psion 11 (I think. might be 10)

Based on these, what set of abilities/feats/spells would be best to corrupt the Paladin, without driving her mental.

The current plan is to trick her into willingly failing will saves (+17 atm >.>) and use a series of Suggestion and Psionic Sugestion spells/powers fromt he Bard to start brainwashing her, and to eventually trick her into killing a low level Paladin (or similar do-gooder) in coldblood while he's helpless, convinced that he's a brutal warlord or something.



Any ideas thoughts or suggestions?

[PhoenixRivers]

If the paladin's magically compelled, he can just atone.

If the paladin't magically DECEIVED, he cannot. The goal is to mess with the paladin's perceptions. Get him to see an evil act as a good one. Frame someone for something truly awful. Paladin kills him/her, paladin falls, no recovery.

From there, start the magical compulsion, to begin pulling him down the path of the bad.

[Grumman]

The current plan is to trick her into willingly failing will saves (+17 atm >.>) and use a series of Suggestion and Psionic Sugestion spells/powers fromt he Bard to start brainwashing her, and to eventually trick her into killing a low level Paladin (or similar do-gooder) in coldblood while he's helpless, convinced that he's a brutal warlord or something.

Question: What makes you think that she would join you if you do this? Even if it was enough to turn her evil, that just means she will have less qualms about gutting you like a fish for your betrayal.

[PhoenixRivers]

Brings me to the second point: The paladin can never know it was you that did the framing.

[Jazarkrazaj]

We're all aware of what her character will do (specifically to me) should she ever find out.

The trick is finding the right balance, and making her think it's all her idea/doing.

[Otodetu]

Rather tricky situation, as it open a can of worms; what constitutes a paladin falling?

Maybe plain boredom: **** this, i wanna have fun!

Revenge against a target protected by the law: The evil necromancer IS allowed to perform necromancy, and HAD permission from the commoners to do obscene things to their souls, he paid them after all, and they where desperate.

Enough of these situations and the character might just see that you might need to be bad to to good, breaking the rules and following your own intuition, not caring if it brands you as evil.

[Lvl45DM!]

Miko? meet Shojo :D

[crazedloon]

Well in all likely hood the evil spell caster is a lich (arent they all? ) So convince (you have high bluff right and a lot of lead right?) the Paladin that the lich's Phylactery is a small child (the younger the better) Than appeal to the paladins sense of morality that its for the greater good the killing of the one child. When the dead is done and the fact that the child is not the Phylactery the paladin should fall since it was a senseless killing of a innocent (thus and evil act shame on him for failing her sense motive).

[Telonius]

The real trick is going to be getting the Paladin to love you more than she loves her Code. Some quick tips on that ...

- Start small. Get her to start doing little things for you. People tend to attribute things in the most "sensible" light after the fact. Why did I lend him 5gp? Because I like him.
- Be the victim. Paladins have a great sense of justice. If you can engineer a situation where you're being treated in a way that you can spin as unfair, they'll come to your aid. Extra bonus points if it's the local police or authority figure doing the unfair treatment. If they already like you, they'll give you the benefit of the doubt when it happens.
- Plant the seed of doubt. After Paladin comes to your aid, talk with her. Be absolutely sure not to directly challenge her beliefs about law and good in the abstract. Make it specifically about the local "corrupt" official. (Of course they're only treating you unfairly because you wanted them to).
- Let that seed grow. Let her paladin order know (anonymously, of course) that she sided with you over the authority figure. She's now had a bit of her beliefs questioned, and her own personal authority figure is suspicious of her. Be sure to tell her that you believe in her, no matter what the Order says. This will do two things: reinforce her idea that you really do love her, and put you on a higher level of trust than her own Order.

You can probably take it from there. Happy corrupting!

[Roukon]

Well in all likely hood the evil spell caster is a lich (arent they all? ) So convince (you have high bluff right and a lot of lead right?) the Paladin that the lich's Phylactery is a small child (the younger the better) Than appeal to the paladins sense of morality that its for the greater good the killing of the one child. When the dead is done and the fact that the child is not the Phylactery the paladin should fall since it was a senseless killing of a innocent (thus and evil act shame on him for failing her sense motive).

That is evil. I love it. I think this would work best. This way they are willingly doing the act and can only say "I didn't know" where anyone can respond that they could have found out.

Roukon

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Eh, that still makes for blame to be placed on the OP. I'd tack on that the OP should act as though they had to bust their hump to get this info, and by taking down the child while the OP is off distracting the lich the pally does a good deed that also profits the OP in a believable manner. When the information turns out to be false after the kid is whacked, it can be played off as a setup to both make the pally fall and show that the OP is untrustworthy.

[Keshay]

A quick boggle. Are you in the process of deceiving the player as well as the character in regards to the alignemnt shift?

[Lapak]

The real trick is going to be getting the Paladin to love you more than she loves her Code. Some quick tips on that ...

This is the most useful post, in my opinion, and the right angle to take in general rather than a one-off 'Ha ha! You have been tricked into falling, now we corrupt you while you're upset!' scheme.

That said, the drama-lover in me can't help but think that the most epic resolution to this would be having you succeed in corrupting the Paladin, only to have the (fallen, depowered) Paladin realize at the last moment that the world is more important than her love, and sacrifice herself to destroy the spellcaster right at the moment of triumph - leaving you alone, bitter, and bereft as you roll into the evil campaign. Not the goal you're going for, though.

[Fishy]

What? No way is doing something while deceived a fall-worthy offense. And even if it is, the moment she loses her powers she gets a big obvious clue that she's done a bad thing.

Your ninja loves this paladin, right? Get her to love you back. No bard magic, no charm potions, no massive Bluff scores, just do it the old fashioned way. You guys adventure together, you've saved each others lives, you've built up a bond of trust, and you understand each other in a way that no one else will. (Or, go for the flowers-and-candy routine, or something.)

It's going to be a lopsided relationship, of course. Your little ninja wants to give his entire life to her, and she can't fully reciprocate, because she's sworn her oaths of service and a good chunk of her life belongs to her god. Feel free to bring this up in as subtle a manner as you can manage.

When the day comes that she chooses to be with you when her sacred duty demands she be somewhere else, that's Fallsville.

And when she's dealing with her loss, you're right there to make her see how wonderful it is that you can be together forever. And what good is a God who doesn't want you to be happy?

From there, pushing her to Lawful Evil is... uphill, certainly. But can be done.

[HenryHankovitch]

What? No way is doing something while deceived a fall-worthy offense. And even if it is, the moment she loses her powers she gets a big obvious clue that she's done a bad thing.

The description for the Atonement spell (which you use to restore powers and class abilities to someone who has lost thim, namely paladins/clerics/druids) says that a quest/restitution to the offended deity is required UNLESS the character was deceived into losing their powers.

So not only does that imply that you can lose your powers due to an action that you did not know was evil at the time (though I would say that it's a "you should have done your homework" thing), but that falling in general is not necessarily a BAAWWW WHY HAS THOU FORSAKEN ME NOW I MUST DRESS ALL IN SPIKY BLACK ARMOR AND SACRIFICE KITTENS EMO FOR THE EMO GOD thing. Assuming the character is willing to repent, it's more of a "dumbass, be more careful" slap on the wrist from his god.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Is a god that will slap you on the wrist for not being omniscient really deity worth following though? Methinks that a nudge towards Grey Guard is where it's at.

[Fishy]

Assuming the character is willing to repent, it's more of a "dumbass, be more careful" slap on the wrist from his god.

I am now imagining Pelor as the grumpy police chief from every buddy-cop movie ever.

"You're a loose cannon, Mack! That was way over the line!", "If I see you pull one more stunt like that, you're off the case!", "Hand over your badge and gun!", and, of course, "I don't like his methods... but damn it, he gets results!"

[crazedloon]

Ok to sum up what seems to be the general idea...

1. It is easy to make a paladin fall it is harder to make them want to stay fallen
2. You need to make the paladin care about you more than her oath and love for her god/ideals

With the above in mind here is a more complete plan

1.The biggest hurdle is that at will detect evil.... you need to hide the fact that you are evil to make this all work otherwise a good paladin player (with a smart dm backing them) will get circumstance bonuses against pretty much anything you or any of your evil party members try to do.
2.Once you have hidden your alignment make her fall (I like my idea cus it kills children.... )
3. With the paladin fallen you no longer need to sneak around because she can not see that you are evil so offer her help in atoning for her sins by going on a long convoluted quest or pilgrimage with her.
4. Make her fall in love with you on said quest
5. Twist her ideals and show her that what she thought she needed and loved her (i.e. her god/ideals) have abandoned her but you have not and that being good is overrated thus making her not want to atone (and maybe get revenge for a wasted life)
6....
7. Profit?

[Yukitsu]

I did this sort of thing by consistently showing that the morally grey worked better than the truly moral at the same goals, and gloated about it. In the end however, I chose to rise to neutrality/good, as evil didn't pay as much as love and happiness. My character also knew that rising to good wouldn't truly hurt me, even if I did change from it. I knew the inverse would bring pain and sorrow to the person I cared about.

[PersonofJid]

Well in all likely hood the evil spell caster is a lich (arent they all? ) So convince (you have high bluff right and a lot of lead right?) the Paladin that the lich's Phylactery is a small child (the younger the better) Than appeal to the paladins sense of morality that its for the greater good the killing of the one child. When the dead is done and the fact that the child is not the Phylactery the paladin should fall since it was a senseless killing of a innocent (thus and evil act shame on him for failing her sense motive).

You know I have a friend who did just that.

You could always have some fun with the Helm of Opposite Alignment.

[Gamgee]

Question: What makes you think that she would join you if you do this? Even if it was enough to turn her evil, that just means she will have less qualms about gutting you like a fish for your betrayal.

Yea... you know the Jedi and Anakin? That's what happens when a Paladin falls... bad stuff.

@OP
Because once a Paladin becomes evil there is nothing they won't do. Hence why your most likely going to get gutted if your ever caught.

This is also why I play Neutral Good, all the goodness, but without the stupidity. ;)

[Nero24200]

Tricking him into evil acts won't do much unless the paladin is aware the evil acts could potentially be the result.

You can hardly call it an evil act to slay demons...only to find out afterwards that they were really innocent commoners with every powerful illusion magic on them.

Generally, trying to make a paladin fall isn't easy, or even fun in most cases unless you go about it the right way. Even if tricking the paladin into performing an untentional evil act is enough to make him/her fall, the player won't always be happy with the result if thats the case.

The best way to make them fall (without causing all-sorts of problems) is to make them think that good is a load of *censored for your protection*. If the paladin is in love with your PC, this could be potentially easy, especially if your character is evil. Find another paladin (one of the same order would work best) and antagonise them no-end (and don't bother hiding that evil aura around them). Then, when the paladin comes to hunt you down, make sure your friend is there to witness it.

She'll be forced to choose between aiding good and her order or striking down the person she loves. On the plus side, this is pretty much a garantueed fall, since she'll either have to side with evil over good, or kill someone she loves, which should be enough to steadily push her over the edge and question good anyway. The downside is that if it's the second option you may require some ressurection magic.

[Yukitsu]

An aside to the above, played this dillema once. Killed the other, then himself in that case.

[ErrantX]

You could always try... oh, I dunno, torture? No, seriously.

Wrack that paladin with so much pain that she's willing to believe anything you tell her, get her to forsake her god(s) under this pain, as her aura of courage doesn't help for beans with torture. She may not be scared of the branding iron, but it sure does hurt like the Nine Hells. Explain to her that all she needs to is swear allegiance to whatever dark deity of choice you have, grant her reprieve with each evil act she accomplishes to relieve the pain. Stockholm Syndrome is fun and tasty.

If you do it right, she may actually think you did her a favor in the end.

-X

[Yukitsu]

Technically, people get stockholm when you're nice to the prisoner not when you torture them. Stress is needed, fear and isolation are needed, but basically you only really get it from the nice ones with stories you can relate to.

[Boci]

Technically, people get stockholm when you're nice to the prisoner not when you torture them. Stress is needed, fear and isolation are needed, but basically you only really get it from the nice ones with stories you can relate to.

I'm interested: what is more effective way to gain someones loyalty? Saving them from their abuser, or being their abuser and gradually becoming nicer?

[Yukitsu]

IIRC, the example I heard about had some faceless mook who'd sympathize with the captive, who was polite, apologetic, snuck him food, and told his side of the story, why they were doing what they were doing, family photos etc. You know, just a normal kind of buddy. I don't think the cases I've read involved the actual interogator as the one they associated with. Basically, just the only nice, normal person in an otherwise messed up situation can cause an aweful lot of dissonance in a person's thought process.

[Boci]

IIRC, the example I heard about had some faceless mook who'd sympathize with the captive, who was polite, apologetic, snuck him food, and told his side of the story, why they were doing what they were doing, family photos etc. You know, just a normal kind of buddy. I don't think the cases I've read involved the actual interogator as the one they associated with. Basically, just the only nice, normal person in an otherwise messed up situation can cause an aweful lot of dissonance in a person's thought process.

My understanding was that stockholm sydrome was a survival instinct: get on the good side of the alpha male/female.

[Yukitsu]

I recall PTSD being more common in instances of subservience to the real scary people, though I am away from book. I can't recall any particular cases where they associated with their torturer when those extreme means are used (though I do know there are cases where they refused to go against them), though I didn't read as many cases of stockholm syndrome as other disorders. Probably because it's a rare condition.

[T.G. Oskar]

I feel that the best way to work this out has to imply a little bit of metagaming. You don't want to make your fellow player change characters, but I feel you've neglected to say whether your friend is willing to accept this change or not. The best way to handle this is with your partner's cooperation, since it requires a pretty hefty balance between roleplaying and intention. If the player is willing to cooperate, it'll work better than just doing it and expecting him to be a team player.

I'd also consider the repercussions of working that out. It's both a big downer and a perfectly reasonable objective to lure you to make the act, only to betray you at the end. This shouldn't affect your current situation (if it did, it would be metagaming), but it's something your character should consider eventually, and quite probably see as normal. You are, after all, attempting to deceive the paladin (and the object of your affection) into falling; it only makes sense that it may eventually happen to your character as well.

Now, falling onto topic: if the player is willing to cooperate with you and willing to allow his character to be corrupted, you and your fellow player can suggest a method of how to make an effective fall. I am particularly surprised you are considering the path of "self before duty", since it is one of the most effective methods. Luring a fall with magic isn't particularly effective, since it will only prompt the paladin to be less trustful of you afterwards (whether he accepts the fall and corrupts or whether he refuses to remain and redeems himself).