So, my player wants a dragon.

[Mephisoth]

So, I have a player who is brand new to D&D, this will likely be his first game.

It seems to me the initial hook which got him interested was the idea of playing a dragon PC, not just a dragon disciple or the like, but a full-blown dragon.

See, the trouble is, the party is only level two, and are composed entirely of Evil characters. (This group aren't a bunch of CE Belkars, they're pretty reasonable people, so this doesn't worry me.)

So far, I've presented a few options, but the only one which seemed to capture his attention and follows the rules is the Dragonborn of Bahamut, but all their lore and rules are written assuming a paladin-like mentality, they are basically forced into a LG role, and in a party of NE-CE characters, this simply won't do.

Playing as a Spell-scale or Kobold didn't seem to appeal to him, nor did simply taking dragon focused classes, it seems to me it's the idea of playing as an actual dragon for RP reasons he is attached to.

As DM, I have never had any issue house-ruling things when I feel it'll help the game, and I offered to waive the LG requirement, but as it turns out, it is the original lore and background of the race that interested him, not just the mechanics, so this didn't really suit him very well.

So, I'm turning around ideas, and figured I'd ask around on the Playground to see if anyone has any homebrew, houserules, or ideas that might help me accommodate this player without shooting down his character idea.

I have access to just about any 3.5 WoTC sourcebook except the BoED and BoVD.

The party likes to optimize, as an example of their relative power, I typically throw level 3-4 encounters at them at level 1, 4-5 at level 2, and they can handle it without trouble, even without Vancian magic, so if anyone has a monster race, it being a little on the powerful side isn't a concern to me.

The other party members use no Vancian casting by my request for balance concerns, and so far it's worked out rather well, although if a perfect idea to fill the gap I find myself with comes out, I can make an exception.

Thanks much in advance, I'll be lurking on this thread all day. I can't respond from class, but I'll pop in throughout the day.

Edit: This player is not concerned about character complexity, the idea of playing a difficult character does not faze him. No need to dumb it down to be newbie-friendly in his case.

[Choco]

I would say re-fluff the Dragonborn of Bahamut for Tiamat or something.

Edit: Or if you don't mind homebrew, use this http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124492

[PinkysBrain]

Always evil/good doesn't mean what it says ... ask him to come up with a background story about how he got corrupted. Good practice, will get him into character.

[Fluffles]

I'm pretty sure that if a Dragon Born of Bahamut goes evil he loses his template.

You could just reduce the LA to +2 for a half dragon and let him go with that.

[Leon]

Explain that a Full blooded dragon isn't suited to the game that your running and that a good place to start is with a Dragon Descended PC using the Draconic Template.

If he doesn't like it well that's he issue, let him on his way and maybe call him back when the group gets to a high enough level that a Small dragon is not a problem

[Medic]

dragon magazine had a break down on dragons by level...

I cannot remember the issue number but I will find it for ya.

[Telonius]

No Vancian casting, likes Dragons ....

Would he be interested in playing a Pseudodragon? They're already statted up as having Telepathy within 60 feet. I could easily see giving them a free Wild Talent feat and letting him play as a Psionic character.

[oxinabox]

I'm pretty sure that if a Dragon Born of Bahamut goes evil he loses his template.

there is a specific subcluase written into every rules:
unless the dm says otherwise

I agree with let him play one, and have him tell in his background how he got corrupted.
or if he can't, then make it for tiamat, or IO (IIRC the original dragon)

Let him play very Lawful evil.
The sort who builds a massive army, only to go out the the front of it and challange the opposing general to one on one combat.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Isn't there a monster level progression from dragons in the Dragonomicon?

OR ateast how to play one..

I'd let him play a wurmling or somthing...
sounds to me like he would be happy with the racial hit die as well rather then class levels...

I would let him play one of those. drop some of the LA a bit as incentive to not have a class (and just keep racial hd)

[Ixcuazl]

Refluffing the dragonborn to 'Dragonthrall of Tiamat' might work, for an evil not-quite-a-dragon.

Change the code of conduct to "Respect and revere evil dragons, fight good dragons, and show no compassion to the undeserving". Switch the alignment requirement to Lawful Evil (Tiamat's alignment). That's about all it takes.

For extra dragonyness, show him the Dragonfire Adept. Fire breathing dragon-man is pretty close to what he's after.


If he's a new guy in an optimised party, though, you can likely let him get away with a slightly overpowered character: snip some of the LA off a wyrmling dragon, and let him be one, advancing dragon HD instead of levels.

He'll get pretty big if the party gets to high levels, but it gives you a subplot-sidequest hook if you need one: "Why is he growing so fast?"

[Farlion]

Maybe Dragonshaman would suit him?


Breath Fire/Acid/Cold just like real Dragon (tm)!!!

(It's all a matter of how you sell it to him )

my2cents

Farlion

[kwanzaabot]

Like other people have said, there's monster classes for dragons out there.

Also: dragon slayers. I mean, an evil dragon going from town to town, terrorizing the citizenry is sure to raise some eyebrows, so it makes sense there'd be some do-gooder knights out there who want to bring your player to justice, or at least serve as some kind of minor recurring villains.

Could be fun.

[Tyndmyr]

A very small dragon might be appropriate. Say...his character manages to aquire a pet dragon, and somehow, their minds get switched. In addition to immediate amusement, this results in a way for him to get into an actual dragon at an appropriate level.

[Mongoose87]

If you go onto Piazo's online shop, you can download a Dragon Magazine that has classes for good dragons, and one that has bad dragons. It'll cost you $5-10.

[RagnaroksChosen]

If you go onto Piazo's online shop, you can download a Dragon Magazine that has classes for good dragons, and one that has bad dragons. It'll cost you $5-10.

do you know which one that is?

[Mando Knight]

sounds to me like he would be happy with the racial hit die as well rather then class levels...

Everyone is happy with a few Dragon RHD. Monk's save progression, Barbarian's HD and BAB, Rogue's skill progression, Darkvision, Low-light vision, immunity to magical paralysis and sleep, and generally good special abilities.

The only ones that miss out on anything better are full casters, but Dragons tend to have good bonuses to mental stats, and Practiced Spellcaster is a good feat for them...

[ericgrau]

Try a half dragon or dragonborn for a new player. If he plays a real dragon he'll have to really understand the game well to take full advantage of all its abilities. Even on the youngest of dragons it's easy to forget a couple. You could reduce the LA because he's new, but ideally he'd learn all of its abilities instead and make a proper build. Like Mando said, dragon HD are uber.

[JellyPooga]

Try a half dragon or dragonborn for a new player. If he plays a real dragon he'll have to really understand the game well to take full advantage of all its abilities. You could reduce the LA because he's new, but ideally he'd learn all of its abilities instead and make a proper build. Like Mando said, dragon HD are uber.

This. New Player = Stick to the simpler stuff. Messing around with Level Adjustments and myriad abilities like natural weapon routines, flight and a breath weapon is going to be hard for a player new to the system to juggle. See if you can persuade him to play a character that has a thing for dragons; a Sorcerer/Dragonheart Mage perhaps...when he gets to high enough level, let him have a Dragon Familiar or something if he keeps on at you about playing an actual dragon (if you think he's experienced enough with the game rules).

[Kaiyanwang]

Maybe Dragonshaman would suit him?


Breath Fire/Acid/Cold just like real Dragon (tm)!!!

(It's all a matter of how you sell it to him )

IMHO this is the way. Dragonfire Adept and / or Dragonshaman. Spellscale, Draconic, Half dragon.

You could built a party of 5, each one different, with all these things.

[Paulus]

IMHO this is the way. Dragonfire Adept and / or Dragonshaman. Spellscale, Draconic, Half dragon.

You could built a party of 5, each one different, with all these things.

Honestly You don't need to be a Dragonborn to look like that. You can fudge the rules all you like. Give him the half dragon template, or the Draconic subtype (Races of the Dragon), and then describe his character as a dragon born. Give him the Dragon fire adept class (Dragon Magic), allow him to take the Draconic Heritage Feat, Dragon Tail Feat, Dragon Wings Feat. And there you go. Invocations are a bit easier to deal with then regular casting, and depending on his choices, shouldn't be to hard.

But if you are still uncomfortable with it. Let him be a Barbarian/Dragon Disciple (prc in DMG), with the Dragon Heritage Feat (Races of the Dragon, Dragon Magic) for Dragon Tail, Dragon Scales, Dragon Wings then Describe him as a dragonborn with wings and a tail. For the PRC, when it actually get's wings, just increase his fly speed and maneuverability to perfect or such. The PRC itself is pretty underpowered but very straight forward for new players and good for melee classes.

Then when he learns the system better, let him play a real dragon. Should be much easier once you're all use to it.

[Mongoose87]

Barbarians have a distinct lack of ability to cast spells spontaneously, which would get in the way of taking Dragon Disciple.

[Kaiyanwang]

Paulus.. that was what I meant. Maybe I explained the concept wrongly.

Good the the Idea of heritage feats. Another party member from the party of "dragonwannabies"

I want to make an anty-party around this concept one of these days..

[Paulus]

Barbarians have a distinct lack of ability to cast spells spontaneously, which would get in the way of taking Dragon Disciple.

Yeah but she isn't allowing casting anyway, so what's the harm? Like I said, she can fudge rules all she wants.

Paulus.. that was what I meant. Maybe I explained the concept wrongly.

Good the the Idea of heritage feats. Another party member from the party of "dragonwannabies"

I want to make an anty-party around this concept one of these days..

No no, I was agreeing with you and backing you up with sources in case she didn't know em, s'why I quoted you, not to disagree. Heh.

Also, Yes, I too am saddened by the sheer number of dragon wannabes... yet Playing a true Dragon seems sooooo impossible in game. I've been wanting to play a dragon forever, but all the complicated rules and blah blah blah, you have to be an expert to even attempt it. Serious lack of "user friendly" if you ask me.

[Kaiyanwang]

Yeah but she isn't allowing casting anyway, so what's the harm? Like I said, she can fudge rules all she wants.




No no, I was agreeing with you and backing you up with sources in case she didn't know em, s'why I quoted you, not to disagree. Heh.

Also, Yes, I too am saddened by the sheer number of dragon wannabes... yet Playing a true Dragon seems sooooo impossible in game. I've been wanting to play a dragon forever, but all the complicated rules and blah blah blah, you have to be an expert to even attempt it. Serious lack of "user friendly" if you ask me.

Is difficult for beginners. I really believe that 5 people knowledgeable of the system could try to enjoy a real different game.

Say, 5 metallic, one for kind. A.. Council of Wyrms

Said this, just think about this:

A bunch of noobs (jokingly) want to play dragons. Excellent - let them play a party of Dragon Wannabies.

The campaing end. They are now skilled players. Now they can play the 5 wyrms above. Maybe the DM can set the campaign in the same world, just years before, and you will roleplay the Dragons until the birth of the former party.

Do you like it? ENJOY SUB-SYSTEMS, MAN!

[Paulus]

Is difficult for beginners. I really believe that 5 people knowledgeable of the system could try to enjoy a real different game.

Say, 5 metallic, one for kind. A.. Council of Wyrms

Said this, just think about this:

A bunch of noobs (jokingly) want to play dragons. Excellent - let them play a party of Dragon Wannabies.

The campaing end. They are now skilled players. Now they can play the 5 wyrms above. Maybe the DM can set the campaign in the same world, just years before, and you will roleplay the Dragons until the birth of the former party.

Do you like it? ENJOY SUB-SYSTEMS, MAN!

I'd make it so that their Dragon-Wannabe character got to the highest level possible and Bahamut said "Hey you guys, you're pretty cool!" and gave him the godly thumbs up and made them all true dragons. So they reset back to level 1, ALL true dragons. But then I'm a sucker for continuous play and long term compagnangeangees, ness. nes. campainge. campinggames.. campagamianiene. ... ... Long running games with the same group of characters.

[Kaiyanwang]

I'd make it so that their Dragon-Wannabe character got to the highest level possible and Bahamut said "Hey you guys, you're pretty cool!" and gave him the godly thumbs up and made them all true dragons. So they reset back to level 1, ALL true dragons. But then I'm a sucker for continuous play and long term compagnangeangees, ness. nes. campainge. campinggames.. campagamianiene. ... ... Long running games with the same group of characters.

Me too! And the exact spelling is "campagne a lungo termine". In my language, I mean. In english, dunno.

[sonofzeal]

Can't he.... y'know, wait until he's a little more used to the system? A lot of players want to jump straight into exotic PCs, without understanding things like LA or RHD or balance concerns or whatnot. The level's too low anyway. A reflavoured "Dragonborn of Tiamat" is probably your best bet... but I'd still much rather say no at this point and keep it in mind for future reference.

[Paulus]

Me too! And the exact spelling is "campagne a lungo termine". In my language, I mean. In english, dunno.

I know, but it's spelled Kam-pag-knee said kam-pain. Which gives me no end of trouble... so much for "Spell it like it sounds" Damn you elementree school!

[tcrudisi]

Here's a thought: Talk to the other players and see if they are okay with him playing a real dragon. No class levels - just hit dice. You said they are optimizers, right? Well, they've got a new guy on their hands. Yeah, he's technically more powerful than them, but they are optimizers and might consider it a challenge to keep up. He, on the other hand, is actually playing a dragon which is what he wants. Since he's new to the game, he will forget most of his abilities and therefore not be playing up to the dragons real potential. Instead of him feeling like he's in the backseat, he'll probably end up being about equal in power with the other players.

Just have him pick a color and keep the CR equal to the players level. Yeah, it's powerful, but he's a new guy and doesn't everyone want more players?

[Darrin]

do you know which one that is?

Dragon #332 had the Chromatic dragons as 20-level PC classes. Dragon #320 had the Metallic dragons.

As I recall... Red looked pretty decent, and possibly Green or Black... but White was too weak. The problem with the dragon PC races is they start out somewhat balanced, but do not scale up very well at all. You have to wait until mid or high levels before any of your spellcasting or SLAs kick in. It was infinitely more effective to take 1 or 2 dragon levels and then multiclass into Sorcerer or some other base class.

The Metallic dragons were a little more interesting because Gold and Silver dragons had an alternate form ability that allowed them to take humanoid forms, so with a few skill ranks in disguise/perform/profession, they could pretend to be something else. I've been itching to surprise my players with one of these for a while, but haven't quite stumbled into the right excuse yet.