New cantrip for Duskblades, Sorcerers, & Wizards

[Revan Ordo]

The players of the wizard and the duskblade in my campaign got together and came up with this idea for a new cantrip. I don't see anything unbalancing about it, in fact I would almost say it was a little weak, but I wanted other opinions.

Ignite
Evocation
Level: Duskblade 0, Sorcerer/wizard 0
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One creature or object.
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex partial (see description)
Spell Resistance: Yes

Your outstretched finger glows bright red like an ember allowing you to set creatures or objects alight.

Make a melee touch attack that deals 1 point of fire damage and causes the creature or object to ignite. A creature or a held object touched is allowed a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid catching fire. If the creature or object catches fire, it is subject to the rules for catching fire in the DMG (Not sure exactly what page number).

[Averagedog]

sounds powerful but hilarious. on average, it does more damage than any other cantrip I've seen. I would reason that the save to not catch on fire is a little high, especially for first and second level. if we follow the casting guidelines, then the DC of the fire should be 14 at most.

[zagan]

Averagedog is right the catching on fire thing is powerfull for a cantrip that's 1d6 damage per round and a full-round action to extinguich. If you want to keep it make it a DC 5 or make that part work only on unatended object.

[Revan Ordo]

The DC 15 comes from the rules for catching on fire in the DMG. Although it is a bit high for a cantrip, I suppose it would be more balanced to let it work off the spell save DC of the caster.

They based the spell off of the Sonic Snap spell in the Spell Compendium that deals 1 point of sonic damage and then deafens on a failed save for 1 round.

Maybe I should limit the catching on fire to a set duration of 1 rd or maybe 1 rd / level (max 3). Let me know what you think.

[Averagedog]

set duration with saves every round sounds good. but I would reason that if it was used on something pretty flammable like a tree log, it just continues to burn after the spell ends.

[zagan]

Hum, I just look up sonic snap and you'r right.
That could work make the DC work like other spell 10+spell+int mod and the duration 1 round, if it last longueur you make the creature wast a turn for a cantrip that's a lot of effect.

[Revan Ordo]

Okay,

How about this:

Ignite
Evocation
Level: Duskblade 0, Sorcerer/wizard 0
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One creature or object.
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex partial (see description)
Spell Resistance: Yes

Your outstretched finger glows bright red like an ember allowing you to set creatures or objects alight.

Make a melee touch attack that deals 1 point of fire damage and causes the creature or object to ignite. A creature or a held object touched is allowed a Reflex save (DC = spell save (10 + spellcasting modifier)) to avoid catching fire. If the creature or object catches fire, it is subject to the rules for catching fire in the DMG. Creatures and objects will continue to burn for 1 rd / level (maximum 3) until the fire is extinguished. Readily flammable objects (cloth, paper, wood, etc.) will continue to burn until consumed or extinguished.

[zagan]

Yes, I think it's alright.
Let's us know how it work in game, I'll like to know how it turn out.

[Revan Ordo]

Zagan,

Will Do.

[Godskook]

'Standard' damage for cantrips is 1d3, and this does up to 3d6+1 with a save to reduce it to 1. For a sorcerer/wizard, it seems like it'd be a more reasonable first level spell, rather than a cantrip. On a duskblade, not as sure, since I don't know what they get for cantrips that'd be different from the standard casters.

[Mongoose87]

One thing to keep in mind is how suicidal a squishy 1st level wizard would have to be to wade into battle.

[Revan Ordo]

Actually, they get to make the Reflex save each round to put out the flames as per the rules for catching on fire in the DMG. Maybe I should fix the wording.

Catching on Fire (From SRD)

Characters at risk of catching fire are allowed a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid this fate. If a character’s clothes or hair catch fire, he takes 1d6 points of damage immediately. In each subsequent round, the burning character must make another Reflex saving throw. Failure means he takes another 1d6 points of damage that round. Success means that the fire has gone out. (That is, once he succeeds on his saving throw, he’s no longer on fire.)

A character on fire may automatically extinguish the flames by jumping into enough water to douse himself. If no body of water is at hand, rolling on the ground or smothering the fire with cloaks or the like permits the character another save with a +4 bonus.

Those unlucky enough to have their clothes or equipment catch fire must make DC 15 Reflex saves for each item. Flammable items that fail take the same amount of damage as the character.

The difference with this spell is that the save is based off of the spellcaster's spell save DC for a 0th level spell (i.e. 10 + 0 + spellcasting modifier) instead of the flat 15.

So, it would be:
Round 1: melee touch attack that deals 1 point of fire damage, foe gets to roll a Reflex save, if fail 1d6 fire damage.
Round 2: foe gets another Reflex save to put out the fire, if fail 1d6 fire damage.
Round 3: foe gets another Reflex save to put out the fire, if fail 1d6 fire damage.
Round 4: The spell's duration ends.

Plus at any time during those rounds, the foe could douse himself with water to instantly put out the flames without needing a Reflex save at all or roll around on the ground and gain a +4 modifier to the Reflex save to put out the flames.

Keep in mind that this spell is based off of Sonic Snap from the Spell Compendium that deals 1 point of sonic damage and causes a foe to be deafened for 1 round. I would be more than willing to limit the duration of the being caught on fire to 1 round, but I'm not sure that is necessary.

Another thing to keep in mind is that this spell does require a melee touch attack to hit, not a ranged touch attack like most damaging cantrips. Mongoose 87 is quite right about a sorcerer/wizard needing to be almost suicidal or very desperate to wade into battle wielding this spell.

This spell was designed to fulfill two roles: 1) Utility (Being able to set things on fire) 2) Damaging Cantrip (Provide another damage dealing cantrip that does fire damage to add to the duskblade, sorcerer, and wizard lists)

[Baron Corm]

I would make it so that the spell only lights objects on fire, not creatures. That would be balanced for a cantrip, and accomplish everything your players want. If they really want to light people on fire... that calls for a higher level spell.

[onthetown]

I agree with Baron Corm. When you get to the point where you're setting your enemies on fire (not counting the trees for dwarves, of course ), it's not a cantrip.

[Triaxx]

As a spell it's useful. As a cantrip it's over powered. It should be split up. Perhaps Ignite as the creature affecting version, and Ignition as the version you'd use to start a camp fire, or light a torch.

[DracoDei]

Mitigating factors:

• Melee touch attack
• Saving throws
• Damage spread out over several rounds.

That actually sounds like it might be balanced to me. To be on the safe side I might add a special clause (if it isn't already part of the way the rules work) that they get a chance to try to extinguish the flames BEFORE the first time they take damage. Also say that only cloth and fur (NOT leather equipment or armor or hide armor) count as flamible enough to catch fire.

[Revan Ordo]

I've heard each of your arguments and your reasoning makes sense. After reviewing all the opinions, I'm inclined to make the following changes:

Ignite
Conjuration [Fire]
Level: Duskblade 0, Sorcerer/wizard 0
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One creature or object.
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex partial (see description)
Spell Resistance: No

Your outstretched finger glows bright red and radiates heat like an ember, enabling you to set objects alight.

Make a melee touch attack that deals 1d3 points of fire damage and causes flammable objects (i.e. cloth, fur, oil, paper, wood, etc.) to ignite. A held object touched is allowed a Reflex save (DC = spell save (10 + spellcasting modifier)) to avoid catching fire. If the object catches fire, it is subject to the rules for catching fire in the DMG.

[Averagedog]

I like :D. imagine if you light an Archer's bow on fire.

[onthetown]

I like :D. imagine if you light an Archer's bow on fire.

Poor archer.

[hamishspence]

Reminds me of the spell Hermione uses to ignite Snape's robes in Harry Potter & the Philosopher's Stone.

So, not way above what you might expect a low level wizard to do.

[Revan Ordo]

Thanks folks for all of the ideas and support in helping me finalize this cantrip. My players are happy with the results and also want me to give you their thanks.