[3.5]Would you say I over did/thought this character? ps.Need to show up an optimizer

[Pika...]

So I did this character during the night, and now I am wondering if I put a bit too much effort/time into it than it needed.

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Versel Faessi

Useless fluff:

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Background Info:
Versel Faessi is a kobold cleric of Kurtulmak. He is devoted to his god, and strives to follow the footsteps of Kurtmulmak's hero deities by following their inspirational philosophy of "heroic cowards". As a devote cleric of the chief kobold deity Versel feels he is destined to found a new kobold colony, and rule as the tribe's All-Watcher as he drives them to further their race's goals and status on this world.

As a youngling Versel showed great interest in the legends told of Kurtulmak's hero deities, a passion which led him to constantly seek knowledge and even more stories from his birth tribe's clergy. Eventually the tribe's chief cleric decided to recruit the young kobold into the clergy, believing it would be simpler than continuing to send him back to his mining duties. There Versel received his initial cleric training.

Wishing to further model himself after the "heroic coward" kobold ideal, which the kobold hero deities refined to such a point that it earned them ascension from Kurtulmak, Versel sought out the tribes rouges and scouts. Between his clergy training he trained in stealth and trickery.

Nearly a year ago Versel decided he was destined for more than a simply clergy kobold. Although most tribes are ruled by an All-Watcher who is a master of sorcery, Versel believes kobold clerics are equally capable of holding the title of All-Watcher, if mot more, and that he is destined to prove said point. Because of this versel left his tribe to seek out kobolds in need of his divinely inspired leadership. To achieve this goal Versel Faessi has taken up the mantle of an adventurer, believing the kobolds most in need of him can be found within or around the lands of the self-called "civilized" races.




Alignment:
Although Versel's deity, Kurtulmak, is lawful evil, Versel has a neutral view concerning the conflict between good and evil. Versel simply has no taste for cruelty. In his birth tribe he was aware of his people's heavy use of it, especially when it concerned their racial enemies, but chose not to partake in it unless obligated to. He will go as far as to argue such "indulgences" are an unneeded and troublesome diversion to the kobold's structured society, and even worse their productivity.

Even when it comes to their race's most despised enemy, the gnome, Versel sees no need to extend their suffering more than what is needed. Yes they are to be hated, yes they are to be killed whenever an opportunity presents itself, and yes they are to be one day driven into extinction for their horrible crimes against the kobold race, but what good do acts such as torture and suffering bring to these goals? A swift fussless death achieves the same purpose, and in fact leaves significantly more time and many more able hands to snuff out more of their enemies. However, he is not above putting his clergy training to use if a gnome is intent on obtaining his ire.

This view over his race's taste for evil is in fact something Versel wishes to spread to the rest of their kind. He desires to find like minded kobolds when it comes time to found his tribe, in the hope that they will form the bulk of the clan, and with him as their All-Watcher they will prosper greatly and become a an example of productivity others will model themselves after.


While Versel may care little for the never ending conflict between evil and good, he adheres strictly to his deity's lawful aspect. He sees the order and structure provided by kobold society as the highest level of living mortal can hope to achieve. But he realizes that every great (kobold) settlement needs an equally great and divinely inspired leader to lead and manage it, and he feels he is well qualified to achieve such a role himself.

Though he does not truly acknowledge the alien rules and customs of the so called "civilized" races, he attempts to adhere to them to the best of his ability when traveling within their settlements.

Versel's lawful nature is also reflected in his resolve to honor his word. Being a kobold, and one obsessed with the "heroic coward" philosophy of Kurtulmak's hero deities no less, he sees no wrong with cowardliness and deceitful tactics. However, if he feels he has given his honest word, and that the other party has kept their side of the bargain, he will do everything within his abilities to make due on his part. This does not mean he has to be nice about it, especially if he believes he was pressured or cornered into giving his word. For these reasons Versel is extremely careful and cautions when striking a bargain, or making a promise of any kind.

Remember that he follows kobold law, so things such a theft, deceit, and cowardly tactics are not only allowed by kobold society, but encouraged. This is especially true when it concerns "lesser" races.




Personality Traits and Quarks:
~One of Versel's various quirks is that he has a habit of growling whenever he is upset, or irritated. The later being the more common cause. This is especially common if he is on an adventure he had grudgingly agreed to fulfill.

Sheet:

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Perhaps a bit much?

If not, how in-depth do you get with your characters/character sheets?




ps.s I know it is not an excellent build, bu does anyone have some suggestions for it?

I would like to show a certain munchkin I know it's not all about making characters who can max damage equal to the whole party's, but that a bit of creativity and strategy can be just as effective.

My goal was to improve his sneak attack damage, then use the Invisibility spell to sneak attack.

Plus with the rite of passage I just got myself +1 AC and +1 Attack?

[Boci]

Mechanical: Rogue 4/Cleric 4/Swashbuckler 4? I think Rogue 4/Swordsage 5/Swashbuckler 3 would be better. Just flank with a spiked chain to get sneak attack. Also, I'd swap your out you con and char or something. Playing a charmless rogue is easier than playing a dead one. Then you also do not have to use a spiked chain and can use a gnome quick razor instead. Take a level dip into the factotum to become trained in iaijutsu focus, then you can have a sneak attack of 6d6+extra damage when the opponent is flatfooted. Alternativly use a shortsword and shadowblade for dex to damage. Craven is good choice for a feat.
You do not have to be a cleric yo serve your diety. And if you must be a cleric, ask your DM if you can reflavour the temple raider PrC class from complete devine. You'll want some synergy between your base classes.

Fluff: I do not feel you over did the detail. Its a nice background story and your character's view on aligment is interesting. The munchkin in question, is his background story usually 2 lines long? Your character sheet seems unneccissarily colourful and detailed, but whatever.

[PinkysBrain]

If not, how in-depth do you get with your characters/character sheets?

You mean the background? Depends on the DM and the rest of the group.

The character sheet isn't nearly done yet though AFAICS.

I would like to show a certain munchkin I know it's not all about making characters who can max damage equal to the whole party's, but that a bit of creativity and strategy can be just as effective.

Seeing your character I have to ask ... do you consider say a pure rogue trying to get full attack sneak attacks most of the time a munchkin? IMO it's simply common sense, melee is dangerous business and that's the kind of damage you have to do to be there.

My goal was to improve his sneak attack damage, then use the Invisibility spell to sneak attack.

Invisibility will give you exactly one sneak attack, at level 12 this is irrelevant ... you need to get full attacks.

[Korivan]

You forgot to add your intelligence to your damage. You still have it giving you a -1, when you have a +2 to INT.

[jiriku]

So I did this character during the night, and now I am wondering if I put a bit too much effort/time into it than it needed.

[stuff]

Perhaps a bit much?

If not, how in-depth do you get with your characters/character sheets?

If you have fun with it, no amount of depth and detail for your character is too much. Whatever investment helps you have a good time is the right amount.

How in-depth I get varies a lot. In a recent game I joined, play had already started by the time I showed up. I whipped together a 3rd-level cleric on a single sheet of scratch paper in five minutes flat and started playing so I could get into the action.

Later I grew bored with that character, and in designing a new character I spent two weeks perfecting a five-class 20-level build path, emailing back and forth with the DM, posting threads here on the Giant to get help with the build, and developed a fairly complex backstory with lots of plot hooks to help the DM build adventures around my character's story. I built an Excel spreadsheet as my character sheet that automatically calculates my hit points, hit and damage modifiers, AC, saves, spell save DCs and skill bonuses, and lets me pick my daily spells and metamagic from drop-down lists instead of having to hunt through books and write spells down by hand.

Both methods are valid, as long as you're having a good time doing it.

[Paulus]

So I did this character during the night, and now I am wondering if I put a bit too much effort/time into it than it needed.

Spoiler

Show

Versel Faessi

Useless fluff:

Spoiler

Show

Background Info:
Versel Faessi is a kobold cleric of Kurtulmak. He is devoted to his god, and strives to follow the footsteps of Kurtmulmak's hero deities by following their inspirational philosophy of "heroic cowards". As a devote cleric of the chief kobold deity Versel feels he is destined to found a new kobold colony, and rule as the tribe's All-Watcher as he drives them to further their race's goals and status on this world.

As a youngling Versel showed great interest in the legends told of Kurtulmak's hero deities, a passion which led him to constantly seek knowledge and even more stories from his birth tribe's clergy. Eventually the tribe's chief cleric decided to recruit the young kobold into the clergy, believing it would be simpler than continuing to send him back to his mining duties. There Versel received his initial cleric training.

Wishing to further model himself after the "heroic coward" kobold ideal, which the kobold hero deities refined to such a point that it earned them ascension from Kurtulmak, Versel sought out the tribes rouges and scouts. Between his clergy training he trained in stealth and trickery.

Nearly a year ago Versel decided he was destined for more than a simply clergy kobold. Although most tribes are ruled by an All-Watcher who is a master of sorcery, Versel believes kobold clerics are equally capable of holding the title of All-Watcher, if mot more, and that he is destined to prove said point. Because of this versel left his tribe to seek out kobolds in need of his divinely inspired leadership. To achieve this goal Versel Faessi has taken up the mantle of an adventurer, believing the kobolds most in need of him can be found within or around the lands of the self-called "civilized" races.




Alignment:
Although Versel's deity, Kurtulmak, is lawful evil, Versel has a neutral view concerning the conflict between good and evil. Versel simply has no taste for cruelty. In his birth tribe he was aware of his people's heavy use of it, especially when it concerned their racial enemies, but chose not to partake in it unless obligated to. He will go as far as to argue such "indulgences" are an unneeded and troublesome diversion to the kobold's structured society, and even worse their productivity.

Even when it comes to their race's most despised enemy, the gnome, Versel sees no need to extend their suffering more than what is needed. Yes they are to be hated, yes they are to be killed whenever an opportunity presents itself, and yes they are to be one day driven into extinction for their horrible crimes against the kobold race, but what good do acts such as torture and suffering bring to these goals? A swift fussless death achieves the same purpose, and in fact leaves significantly more time and many more able hands to snuff out more of their enemies. However, he is not above putting his clergy training to use if a gnome is intent on obtaining his ire.

This view over his race's taste for evil is in fact something Versel wishes to spread to the rest of their kind. He desires to find like minded kobolds when it comes time to found his tribe, in the hope that they will form the bulk of the clan, and with him as their All-Watcher they will prosper greatly and become a an example of productivity others will model themselves after.


While Versel may care little for the never ending conflict between evil and good, he adheres strictly to his deity's lawful aspect. He sees the order and structure provided by kobold society as the highest level of living mortal can hope to achieve. But he realizes that every great (kobold) settlement needs an equally great and divinely inspired leader to lead and manage it, and he feels he is well qualified to achieve such a role himself.

Though he does not truly acknowledge the alien rules and customs of the so called "civilized" races, he attempts to adhere to them to the best of his ability when traveling within their settlements.

Versel's lawful nature is also reflected in his resolve to honor his word. Being a kobold, and one obsessed with the "heroic coward" philosophy of Kurtulmak's hero deities no less, he sees no wrong with cowardliness and deceitful tactics. However, if he feels he has given his honest word, and that the other party has kept their side of the bargain, he will do everything within his abilities to make due on his part. This does not mean he has to be nice about it, especially if he believes he was pressured or cornered into giving his word. For these reasons Versel is extremely careful and cautions when striking a bargain, or making a promise of any kind.

Remember that he follows kobold law, so things such a theft, deceit, and cowardly tactics are not only allowed by kobold society, but encouraged. This is especially true when it concerns "lesser" races.




Personality Traits and Quarks:
~One of Versel's various quirks is that he has a habit of growling whenever he is upset, or irritated. The later being the more common cause. This is especially common if he is on an adventure he had grudgingly agreed to fulfill.

Sheet:

Spoiler

Show

Perhaps a bit much?

If not, how in-depth do you get with your characters/character sheets?




ps.s I know it is not an excellent build, bu does anyone have some suggestions for it?

I would like to show a certain munchkin I know it's not all about making characters who can max damage equal to the whole party's, but that a bit of creativity and strategy can be just as effective.

My goal was to improve his sneak attack damage, then use the Invisibility spell to sneak attack.

Plus with the rite of passage I just got myself +1 AC and +1 Attack?

AC seems a tad low for his level, by optimization standards. And attack wise... well actually you can solve both problems at once. Since you have Weapon Finesse already, I'd look into Boosting your Dex. After all you don't Have Gloves of Dexterity yet, so I'd look into a way to finagle them. You certainly have enough followers, but abuse of the Leadership feat isn't what you were going for I'd say, not if you're trying to show up another Optimizer.

I'd even venture to rid yourself of the headband of intellect, get Gloves of Dexterity, which will boost your AC and Hit, and Damage equally. Switch your Cha score with Con like suggested, If you're going invisible and sneak attacking, an army of other characters won't do you much good anyway. Seems you may be stretching yourself a bit much. Cleric abilities, Rogueabilities, Leadership abilities. ...I'd say focus on two instead of three. But I'm getting a conflicting message here.

I would like to show a certain munchkin I know it's not all about making characters who can max damage equal to the whole party's, but that a bit of creativity and strategy can be just as effective.
Yet
My goal was to improve his sneak attack damage, then use the Invisibility spell to sneak attack.

So which are you going for exactly? If you want creativity and strategy most go Wizard, or a fighter/warblade mix that trips, disarms, bullrushes etc. A rogue doesn't have much strategy in battle if his only focus is sneak attack and invisibility. If you want battle field control, you could go tanglefoot bag, caltrops, smoke, thunderstones, that sort of thing. As for rogue, sneaking in and delivering that all powerful blow doesn't mesh as well as through flanking. Which would mean you are aiming for damage output, as opposed to strategy. So It's a tad confusing.

[Pika...]

Invisibility will give you exactly one sneak attack, at level 12 this is irrelevant ... you need to get full attacks.

Well I was thinking something on the lines of:

Round #1: Invisibility + Move Silently at half-speef to a "good" position.
Round #2: Fullattack as Sneak Attack (including the fire damage and Craven feat damage)+Insightful Attack. Then 5ft step back.
Round #3: Go back to Step #1.

You forgot to add your intelligence to your damage. You still have it giving you a -1, when you have a +2 to INT.

Oh, my bad. I thought I just kept track of that mentally.

In the nd my -2 Str Mod and my +2 Insightful Attack balance each other out I believe.

[Kylarra]

I would like to show a certain munchkin I know it's not all about making characters who can max damage equal to the whole party's, but that a bit of creativity and strategy can be just as effective.

Eh, then you just have situational damage whereas the munchkin can be doing theirs all day. I'm not sure that this is good at proving a point.

[jiriku]

The drawback to this strategy is that after making your first attack, you will become visible. Your subsequent attacks in your full attack routine will not count as sneak attacks.

You can overcome this with greater invisibility or blinking, but those are more difficult to acquire.

What are the four levels of cleric for?

[Myrmex]

Why not Rogue1/Wizard2/Rainbow Servant 3/Unseen Seer1/Arcane Trickster 5?

Adapt Rainbow Servant to Kurtlwhatever, and swap out the domain to trickery or something. Make sure you use text trumps table.

The only problem with the above build is the lack of skills, and small HD. You'll have casting as good as a wizard, but not be nearly as proficient with skills. You'll have 5d6 sneak attack, which is only 1d6 less than a full rogue. You can make up for your squishiness with spells, like greater mirror image, improved invisibility and ruin delver's fortune.


I know this totally subverts you just wanting to make a character and have fun, but, um, maybe this way you can be more effective?

[Pika...]

If you have fun with it, no amount of depth and detail for your character is too much. Whatever investment helps you have a good time is the right amount.

How in-depth I get varies a lot. In a recent game I joined, play had already started by the time I showed up. I whipped together a 3rd-level cleric on a single sheet of scratch paper in five minutes flat and started playing so I could get into the action.

Later I grew bored with that character, and in designing a new character I spent two weeks perfecting a five-class 20-level build path, emailing back and forth with the DM, posting threads here on the Giant to get help with the build, and developed a fairly complex backstory with lots of plot hooks to help the DM build adventures around my character's story. I built an Excel spreadsheet as my character sheet that automatically calculates my hit points, hit and damage modifiers, AC, saves, spell save DCs and skill bonuses, and lets me pick my daily spells and metamagic from drop-down lists instead of having to hunt through books and write spells down by hand.

Both methods are valid, as long as you're having a good time doing it.

Hmm. I guess you are probably right.

Even though all the work I put into my chracters may never see the light of day (which it rarely ever does), at least I enjoy it.


Oh, and when I am bored (no girlfriend, so yeaah) I can kill time doing things like this (Warning! Professional artist close your eyes.):

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[Starbuck_II]

I couldn't find feats on the sheet. I saw Leadership effects since you list followers, but not feats.

Where is it?

[Pika...]

The drawback to this strategy is that after making your first attack, you will become visible. Your subsequent attacks in your full attack routine will not count as sneak attacks.

You can overcome this with greater invisibility or blinking, but those are more difficult to acquire.

What are the four levels of cleric for?

Nope. It's been awhile, but the rules say for that round I have taken away his Dex (Surprised him I believe). I got to reread it to quote it. But basically I am hitting him with a full-attack which is a full-round action.

And the four levels of cleric are for the invisibility spell (along with the spontaneous domain feat), and for all my other spell slots to heal myself. Plus, the group is currently an eight-man group (before I even join) without a Cleric.

Let's just say I plan on making at least my money back on that wand.

[Pika...]

I couldn't find feats on the sheet. I saw Leadership effects since you list followers, but not feats.

Where is it?

Second page, bottom right. Yeah, even after a few years I still get confused by where they placed it.

[Amphetryon]

Rogue 3/Cleric 6/Swash 3 is strictly better than Rogue 4/Cleric 4/Swash 4; Rogue 2/Cleric 7/Swash 3 is better still. Rogue 4 gives no practical advantage when compared to increased caster level.

[Myrmex]

Check out the Enveloping Pit in MIC if you stick with cleric casting.

[Pika...]

AC seems a tad low for his level, by optimization standards. And attack wise... well actually you can solve both problems at once. Since you have Weapon Finesse already, I'd look into Boosting your Dex. After all you don't Have Gloves of Dexterity yet, so I'd look into a way to finagle them. You certainly have enough followers, but abuse of the Leadership feat isn't what you were going for I'd say, not if you're trying to show up another Optimizer.

1. OK, gotta fick AC. Thanks!

2. I don't have gloves of Dex?!

3. LoL. No, I am a big fan of the leadership feat, and I am quite sure I can abuse the hell out of it (but I don't).

Made a killing in a business a few characters back, and got myself noble status with his own merchant and crafting business. And his cohort is/was an artificer.

I'd even venture to rid yourself of the headband of intellect, get Gloves of Dexterity, which will boost your AC and Hit, and Damage equally. Switch your Cha score with Con like suggested, If you're going invisible and sneak attacking, an army of other characters won't do you much good anyway. Seems you may be stretching yourself a bit much. Cleric abilities, Rogueabilities, Leadership abilities. ...I'd say focus on two instead of three. But I'm getting a conflicting message here.

Well, the DM (I used to play in this campaign way back from when it started at level 1 up to like 11, now it's at 15), said he wants to finish it off into epic, so I want Versel's leadership as high as possible to achieve his goals.

But yeah, I am stretching myself far. I realize it now, but I kind of like it. If I can pull it off, and actually be useful to the party while working on his goals I'd feel I improved as a player. The munchkin I mentioned earlier (in my opinion) is incapable of succeeding, and/or even playing, anything besides the same exact renamed wizard each game/group. And the funny thing is his renamed character is always a glass canon, and always is among the first to die...

[Pika...]

Rogue 3/Cleric 6/Swash 3 is strictly better than Rogue 4/Cleric 4/Swash 4; Rogue 2/Cleric 7/Swash 3 is better still. Rogue 4 gives no practical advantage when compared to increased caster level.

I wanted to go Rogue 3/Sawshbucker/3 cleric 6, but I realized the multiclassing penalties would not have allowed me to start as a level 12 character, and the DM was firm on starting no higher or lower than 12th level.

[Pika...]

Check out the Enveloping Pit in MIC if you stick with cleric casting.

I can not seem to find it.

Do you happen to ahve a page number, or the specific section?

[lsfreak]

Invisibility does not work that way, nor does surprise, unless you DM rules differently. You get sneak attack on the first attack and nothing more, because after that attack you are fully visible and you enemy is aware of you. Unless, of course, you catch them completely flat-footed, as in they haven't yet acted in combat.

[Pika...]

Invisibility does not work that way, nor does surprise, unless you DM rules differently. You get sneak attack on the first attack and nothing more, because after that attack you are fully visible and you enemy is aware of you. Unless, of course, you catch them completely flat-footed, as in they haven't yet acted in combat.

Not quite I believe:

The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Invisibility.htm

Full Attack

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/act...htm#fullAttack

A full-attack is a single action, albeit a ful-round one.

[lsfreak]

Say you have a 10/10/5/5 routine.

Your first attack at +10 hits. You have now attacked a creature. Invisibility breaks.

[Foryn Gilnith]

If it's even slightly ambiguous, you'll be sure your munchkin comrade will whine about it.

Also, a full attack incorporates one action, but as the wording "additional attacks" implies, it has more than one attack. Invisibility ends not on an action, but on an attack.

[Pika...]

If it's even slightly ambiguous, you'll be sure your munchkin comrade will whine about it.

Oh yes, he will whine. Boy will he whine.

Also, a full attack incorporates one action, but as the wording "additional attacks" implies, it has more than one attack. Invisibility ends not on an action, but on an attack.

True, but it is still called a "Full Attack".

I've let players do it in my games, and I have not had an issue with other DMs before. But of course, it all boils down to DM ruling (like everything in D&D!), which after the DM has heard me out I do not argue with (unlike the munchkin I mentioned...).

[Pika...]

Say you have a 10/10/5/5 routine.

Your first attack at +10 hits. You have now attacked a creature. Invisibility breaks.

Wait, where is that fourth 5 coming from? O.o

[Foryn Gilnith]

Two-Weapon Fighting, presumably the place the second 10 comes from.

[Gnaeus]

The fix is to drop the cleric and include assassin or sorcerer. Rog5/Swash6/Ass1, or Rog3/Swash4/Sorc1 or 5. Get a weapon with a wand chamber in it, and a wand of greater invisibility.

[Pika...]

Two-Weapon Fighting, presumably the place the second 10 comes from.

Eh? Sorry, am a bit confused.

I thought with natural weapons you do not get extra attacks.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Eh? Sorry, am a bit confused.

I thought with natural weapons you do not get extra attacks.

Oh, he was referring specifically to your kobold when he said "you". I thought it was just a generic fellow with TWF/ITWF, +4 dex modifier, and +6 BAB.

[jiriku]

Also, tell the munchkin that your kobold sometimes goes by the nickname "Pun-Pun". This will make him nervous.