Evil In Love: RPing As A DM

[Leliel]

Anyway, for a "all-lycanthrope", ie the PCs are lycanthropes game I keep on planning to run someday, my BBEG's two main minions, his daughter Edena, and his apprentice Jacob, are madly in love with each other-although Edena is in denial about this, and Jacob, having had no real human experiences growing up, is more than a little immature about his affection.

Now, these two (and their boss, but he's not at stake here) are both anti-villains with a healthy dose of tragedy to their stories (Edena wants approval from a father who subconsciously wants to avoid her as much as possible due to survivor's guilt, Jacob is slowly transforming into a fae and losing what little connection to humanity he has left), but they're still villains, even if they have sympathetic and heroic qualities.

So, the question:

How would you portray two people with evil alignments and fundamentally selfish (if understandable) motivations who feel true love for each other?

[Starbuck_II]

...Jacob is slowly transforming into a fae...

Explain this fragment first.

[Dienekes]

People can be selfish about a great many things, enough to be considered evil and still be unselfish to one they hold dear.

Meaning, play them as true lovers, but there affection does not taper away from their essential evilness. Besides, villains have feelings too.

[Leliel]

Explain this fragment first.

Well, see, he's basically a voodoo sorcerer. Cheesy, perhaps, but it's a necessary forward:

See, he was raised from birth to be an emissary from the Loa, but his home feared him and his master for their powers, and eventually, they killed his mentor. In order to get back, he cut a deal with the Petro (aggressive, more malevolent) Loa to gain control over and upgrade his powers.

The price though, was that he would one day become a Petro Loa himself. While he was a complete misanthrope at the time and didn't really care, his burgeoning love for Edena has caused him to begin wondering if leaving humans behind completely is such a wonderful thing.

That said, he doesn't regret the deal, only the results.

[Ravens_cry]

Ever seen the Monarch and Dr. Girlfriend? There's evil in love. Not an example I would use specifically for this situation, but an example nonetheless.
Hmm, I would make Jacob rather petulant and probably needy. Every minute without Edena is another minute closer to when his power unfolds and he can no longer be with her in the same way.
Just a thought, my experience with love is rather. . .one sided.

[Seatbelt]

There was an example in one of the newer splat books. Maybe the DMG but I can't remember. Two BBEGs working together because they had been friends for a long, long time. No other reason. Just friendship. This in no way helps you solve the "How to roleplay them" question. But at least its a reminder that sometimes justification can be glossed over because people, even Big Bad Evil Guys, are irrational from time to time. :)

[Akal Saris]

Dr. Horrible and Magneto are 2 examples of evil characters in love (Magneto with his children). Basically, it doesn't seem to stop them from being selfish or ignoring their loved ones' wishes when it goes against their own.

[jiriku]

Evil in love is selfish. Very selfish. It's being in love with someone because you love how they make you feel, and you thrive on the attention and approval they give you, and not really giving a damn about your lover's emotional needs, self-esteem, hobbies, interests, or goals.

Evil in love will demand your time even when you're trying to finish that big project before the deadline. Evil will expect you to cook dinner even when you feel sick. Evil will abuse you physically and emotionally when angry, and even though it may show up with flowers tomorrow and say it's sorry, the abuse will always happen again. Evil in love will lie to you and manipulate you in order to get what it wants. It will demand money from you even when you're struggling financially, and will steal from you if you won't give. Evil in love is quick to take offense and never forgives past wrongs. Evil is jealous and petty and disloyal. And it may be very very insecure and fearful in a relationship, because deep down, Evil fears that you could easily find a much better partner.

The defining characteristic of Evil in love is that evil people make terrible romantic partners. They TRY. They really do TRY. They can really love deeply and sincerely. But they're just too caught up in their own wants and needs to think about yours very often, and behaviors like compassion, respect, thoughtfulness, and self-sacrifice are just not part of their behavior spectrum.

[Pie Guy]

Evil in love is selfish. Very selfish. It's being in love with someone because you love how they make you feel, and you thrive on the attention and approval they give you, and not really giving a damn about your lover's emotional needs, self-esteem, hobbies, interests, or goals.

Evil in love will demand your time even when you're trying to finish that big project before the deadline. Evil will expect you to cook dinner even when you feel sick. Evil will abuse you physically and emotionally when angry, and even though it may show up with flowers tomorrow and say it's sorry, the abuse will always happen again. Evil in love will lie to you and manipulate you in order to get what it wants. It will demand money from you even when you're struggling financially, and will steal from you if you won't give. Evil in love is quick to take offense and never forgives past wrongs. Evil is jealous and petty and disloyal. And it may be very very insecure and fearful in a relationship, because deep down, Evil fears that you could easily find a much better partner.

The defining characteristic of Evil in love is that evil people make terrible romantic partners. They TRY. They really do TRY. They can really love deeply and sincerely. But they're just too caught up in their own wants and needs to think about yours very often, and behaviors like compassion, respect, thoughtfulness, and self-sacrifice are just not part of their behavior spectrum.

So all evil people are sociopathic wife-beaters? That doesn't seem quite right.

You know, people can just like each other for no good reason.

[Human Paragon 3]

Every male Jacob meets is a possible threat to his relationship with Edana. He loves Edana, but he doesn't trust her. Her more mature take on the situation makes him furious and extremely jealous. If you look at her, he wants to thrash you. If you talk to her, he wants to kill you.

Edana loves Jacob but she loves seeing him angry even more. She purposely spurns him and fuels his jealousy because his petulant reactions amuse her. Her favorite activity is working him up into a fervor until he tears some unsuspecting and totally innocent man limb from limb, then they retire to her abode for raucous sex... if he's lucky.

For reference, watch this video from Paris, Je t'aime, starring Steve Buschemi and directed by the Coen brothers.

[Leliel]

Every male Jacob meets is a possible threat to his relationship with Edana. He loves Edana, but he doesn't trust her. Her more mature take on the situation makes him furious and extremely jealous. If you look at her, he wants to thrash you. If you talk to her, he wants to kill you.

Edana loves Jacob but she loves seeing him angry even more. She purposely spurns him and fuels his jealousy because his petulant reactions amuse her. Her favorite activity is working him up into a fervor until he tears some unsuspecting and totally innocent man limb from limb, then they retire to her abode for raucous sex... if he's lucky.

For reference, watch this video from Paris, Je t'aime, starring Steve Buschemi and directed by the Coen brothers.

Personally, good call. I'll have to recycle that for another pair of baddies.

However, I do want these two to be pitiable as well as threatening, and while I imagine Jacob acting like that, I always thought Edena as being far too distant and socially-averse for that kind of emotional manipulation.

See, one of the things I want the PCs to realize is that these two are damaged goods. Edena is a self-loathing schizoid who views her very existence as a mistake (she has good reason to think so, admittedly, being a clone of the fetus that her mother was pregnant with when she was murdered), and Jacob is a paranoiac who is incredibly clingy and desperate for attention.

Needless to say, the interaction between them seems a bit more like psychological study of dysfunctional relationships. Edena isn't just in denial about how much she is attracted to him, she attempts to pretend he doesn't exist, acting even colder and and aloof than she usually is when she's around him to make him go away and stop making her feel like a schoolgirl. Jacob, for his part, is codependent, and all that implies. Needless to say, if the don't start to realize how much they're hurting themselves and each other, someone is going to have a nervous breakdown-and given these two are baddies, someone else is going to have a bone breakdown.

[Solaris]

Spike, from the Buffyverse. Perhaps not the 'trying to be good' part, but Spike pretty much defines Evil Love.

[Thrawn183]

They could have a perfectly healthy relationship and just be total bastards to everyone else.

[jiriku]

So all evil people are sociopathic wife-beaters? That doesn't seem quite right.

You know, people can just like each other for no good reason.

The list was intended to be exhaustive. For garden-variety evil, you can just pick two or three traits from the list at random and discard the rest. For Just-One-Calorie Diet Coke Evil Lite, pick only one trait, and also add tax evasion, speeding 5mph over the limit, and pulling the tags off of mattresses.

People can and do just like each other for no good reason, but someone who's habitually abusive and manipulative to everyone around him (like, say, your typical homicidal BBEG) tends to carry those same habits into his personal relationship. Even relationships with people he likes. And I'm assuming the NPCs put forward by the OP are swimming in the deep end of the Evil pool and not just twiddling their toes in the shallow end, since the BBEG saw fit to choose them as his minions.

[Leliel]

People can and do just like each other for no good reason, but someone who's habitually abusive and manipulative to everyone around him (like, say, your typical homicidal BBEG) tends to carry those same habits into his personal relationship. Even relationships with people he likes. And I'm assuming the NPCs put forward by the OP are swimming in the deep end of the Evil pool and not just twiddling their toes in the shallow end, since the BBEG saw fit to choose them as his minions.

Didn't you read the part where I explicitly stated that both these two and their boss are anti-villains with a strong dose of tragedy, and then, word for word, "but they're still villains, even if they have sympathetic and heroic qualities"?

I'll leave the complete monsters somewhere on the opposing side (what, can't a D&D campaign have two different villainous factions fighting it out?)

[AslanCross]

This is IMO a very good portrayal of an evil character in love (or in lust)---from a Disney movie, strangely enough.

[golentan]

The list was intended to be exhaustive. For garden-variety evil, you can just pick two or three traits from the list at random and discard the rest. For Just-One-Calorie Diet Coke Evil Lite, pick only one trait, and also add tax evasion, speeding 5mph over the limit, and pulling the tags off of mattresses.

People can and do just like each other for no good reason, but someone who's habitually abusive and manipulative to everyone around him (like, say, your typical homicidal BBEG) tends to carry those same habits into his personal relationship. Even relationships with people he likes. And I'm assuming the NPCs put forward by the OP are swimming in the deep end of the Evil pool and not just twiddling their toes in the shallow end, since the BBEG saw fit to choose them as his minions.

I don't know, that fits with what the OP put as the characters in question, but isn't necessarily true. In fact, many times in my experience, people gauge shock actions based on what they would least like to have happen to them. Someone who uses family as a hostage probably loves deeply and chooses the tactic because of its shock value.

Are there people who are violent or selfish in all aspects of their life? Of course. But they're a minority. Torturers are selected from non-sadists because the people who don't care don't have as much effect. I've seen people do hideous things I probably shouldn't describe here. A common thread is that when they get home, they kick off their shoes, give everyone a big hug, and then help cook dinner and help on their children's homework.

Evil isn't always obvious. Not even the kind of evil that acknowledges what it does is wrong, that honestly desires death and destruction. How many BBEGs have wanted to die themselves as part of the plan compared to wanting to rule? What's the difference between winding up ruling on the dark throne and the same with a happy family who you can blow off some steam with afterwards? I know in my power fantasies, I always have someone with me. It's just that the more blatant you are, the more likely you are to push away people who don't want a river of blood to cleanse the land. (I like to think of that number as a majority. Please?) With shared goals, little shot at the top spot, and honest reciprocation (like it seemed in the original post before the clarifications) there's no reason it can't be healthy internally.
[/rant]

[ondonaflash]

I like some of the other posts. There are a lot of ways to play, they can be maliciously in love, but again, just because they are evil doesn't mean they have to be spiteful to one another.

They could take solace and comfort in one another, or in some situations, try to conceal their sins from one another and show them a kind facade. They may want the other to think highly of them, so they act differently.

He thinks to himself "She is special" so he treats her like she's special, with a tender gentleness that he hides from everyone else. This is especially poignant if they're damaged, because he lets her see the proverbial scars underneath the mask, which he wears in front of everyone else.

[Turkish Delight]

Love and selfish motivations aren't mutually exclusive....well, depending on how we define 'love' and how far we take 'selfish.' If you're deeply, deeply committed to a single person such that you would sacrifice your own happiness or even life for their sake, you're obviously not completely selfish...but if you also don't give a crap about anyone else and freely rape, torture, murder and eat anyone else but that person when the whim takes you, you're still pretty evil.

It's moral myopia, basically, which can still be repulsively evil. One mustn't be trapped in the concept that 'evil' means 'always monstrous all the time'. In the real world especially, such evil is usually the exception rather than the rule, the simplest to deal with and the least interesting.

In short: if I were in your position, I wouldn't view their relationship through the prism of the fact that they are 'evil.' I would view it through the prism of their own individual personalities, considering both their merits and their flaws and constructing the relationship accordingly.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Personally, good call. I'll have to recycle that for another pair of baddies.

However, I do want these two to be pitiable as well as threatening, and while I imagine Jacob acting like that, I always thought Edena as being far too distant and socially-averse for that kind of emotional manipulation.

See, one of the things I want the PCs to realize is that these two are damaged goods. Edena is a self-loathing schizoid who views her very existence as a mistake (she has good reason to think so, admittedly, being a clone of the fetus that her mother was pregnant with when she was murdered), and Jacob is a paranoiac who is incredibly clingy and desperate for attention.

Needless to say, the interaction between them seems a bit more like psychological study of dysfunctional relationships. Edena isn't just in denial about how much she is attracted to him, she attempts to pretend he doesn't exist, acting even colder and and aloof than she usually is when she's around him to make him go away and stop making her feel like a schoolgirl. Jacob, for his part, is codependent, and all that implies. Needless to say, if the don't start to realize how much they're hurting themselves and each other, someone is going to have a nervous breakdown-and given these two are baddies, someone else is going to have a bone breakdown.

Edena thinks that she's not good enough for Jacob, and doesn't want to force herself upon him?

[Totally Guy]

I quite liked the evil relationship in that old Gargoyles cartoon between David Xanatos and Fox.

They considered evil schemes to be a game. There was one episode where Xanatos was playing a game of chess using a team villain's pieces and Fox was playing with the gargoyles set. In reality they were both setting up schemes for one team to thwart the other, whilst not being directly in the conflict.

[Leliel]

Edena thinks that she's not good enough for Jacob, and doesn't want to force herself upon him?

To an extent.

She really doesn't want to be close to anyone, least of all Jacob. Her logic goes that if she distances herself from everyone else, it won't hurt when they inevitably leave or forget her.

She is, as TV Tropes would say, a Dark Magical Girl with an aversion to social situations that only compounds her problems.

[horseboy]

Sounds like you're looking more for "evil" rather than "Evil". For "evil" in "love" I'd go with Big Chris from Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels. He loves his son, and everything he does is so he can see to it that he has a better life. He just doesn't have much in the way of marketable skills, so he beats people up who owe Hatchet Harry money.
For "evil in "Love" that's a lot harder. "Love" requires a selflessness that even "Good" can have problems with sometimes. They tend to undergo Spikeification like Spike or Vegeta. I could imagine them quickly becoming highly codependent.
What are there critter forms? How affections are expressed would also be colored by their animalistic natures.

[Leliel]

What are there critter forms? How affections are expressed would also be colored by their animalistic natures.

Edena's mother was a werewolf, so she's a werewolf-which is odd, because her dad and immediate superior is a werefox due to not being a lycanthrope when he and she...you know, but willfully infected himself later.

As for Jacob, he isn't a lycanthrope, but by entering a meditative state, he can temporarily yield to the growing Loa influence in his body, partially transforming into his future Petro form. He doesn't need to meditate, but his unrestrained emotions would fuel his ultimate metamorphosis, giving him great power for about an hour before Baron Samedi shows up to escort him to the spirit world to fulfill his duties.

I find it creates an interesting dichotomy, with the lycanthrope being the calm one of the pair.

[Rixx]

Obligatory: Switching the angle of your body and the pitch of your voice and talking to yourself romantically.

[Bosh]

Honey Bunny: I love you, Pumpkin.
Pumpkin: I love you, Honey Bunny.
Pumpkin: All right, everybody be cool, this is a robbery!
Honey Bunny: Any of you ****ing pricks move, and I'll execute every mother****ing last one of ya!

[Froogleyboy]

That is the first time I've LOL'd in a looong time. Can I sig that?

[Zaydos]

Sounds like you're looking more for "evil" rather than "Evil". For "evil" in "love" I'd go with Big Chris from Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels. He loves his son, and everything he does is so he can see to it that he has a better life. He just doesn't have much in the way of marketable skills, so he beats people up who owe Hatchet Harry money.
For "evil in "Love" that's a lot harder. "Love" requires a selflessness that even "Good" can have problems with sometimes. They tend to undergo Spikeification like Spike or Vegeta. I could imagine them quickly becoming highly codependent.
What are there critter forms? How affections are expressed would also be colored by their animalistic natures.

I'd have to agree with you on "evil" in "love". I do agree they'd probably become very co-dependent, but not necessarily soften like Spike or Vegeta did. In both presentations it is "evil" in "Love" with "Good" when it's "evil" in "Love" with "evil" things might be rather different. An example I'd point out is Ashram ("evil" general bit of an anti-hero) and Pirotess (dark elf/drow princess) from the anime Record of Lodoss War; she loved him and worked for him because of it and in the anime they are written out together when they may very well die because IIRC because one tried to save the other even if it meant dying trying.

[horseboy]

I'd have to agree with you on "evil" in "love". I do agree they'd probably become very co-dependent, but not necessarily soften like Spike or Vegeta did. In both presentations it is "evil" in "Love" with "Good" when it's "evil" in "Love" with "evil" things might be rather different. An example I'd point out is Ashram ("evil" general bit of an anti-hero) and Pirotess (dark elf/drow princess) from the anime Record of Lodoss War; she loved him and worked for him because of it and in the anime they are written out together when they may very well die because IIRC because one tried to save the other even if it meant dying trying.

Well, I wouldn't call Bulma "Good" but at least "good". "Evil" in "Love" with "Evil" gives you the Mayflowers from Hudson Hawk. The question pretty much depends on just how "evil" the two are to create the "Evil feed back loop." With her apparently having an Omega personality her "evilness" could be easily influenced and easily Spiked especially with him becoming increasingly disinterested in good and evil.

[FatR]

So all evil people are sociopathic wife-beaters? That doesn't seem quite right.

You know, people can just like each other for no good reason.

Liking another =/= treating another with any degree of decency. After all, you can like your pet, your property or your food, without putting their needs on the same level as your own. An evil person in love (even if said person makes any distinction between love and lust and is interested in its target's mind, as opposed to merely its body) will invariably strive to take control of its target's life, to establish one-sided dependence, to dominate and and to possess. And yes, all evil people are sociopaths (although they might refrain from physical abuse for some reason or another). That's what being evil means, after all.