So why exactly do clerics turn undead?

[Eldan]

Well, the title says it. What is it with clerics and undead, specifically? I don't really see the connection in the fluff. Vampires, where it would made sense, already have their own rules for holy symbols and possession by ghosts has always had rules in several books. But why can a cleric destroy skeletons, zombies and nightshades? Why can't a cleric of the resident lawful good god turn away demons like the priest in every second horror movie? I never really thought about it, it was just a thing clerics did, but now I'm wondering...
Any ideas?

[Jayabalard]

As I recall, in AD&D 1e clerics could turn Demons and Devils. It's that whole Holy man forcing the unholy to flee thing.

[Jothki]

It doesn't make much sense fluffwise. Why is channeling Positive energy towards a very particular purpose completely disconnected from every other spell a Cleric can have? Turn Undead would make perfect sense as a normal spell.

[Ravens_cry]

I believe there is a feat you can take that allows you to turn a type of outside. Evil would probably work best as it works on Demons AND Devils.
As for why the minor undead? All undead come under a basic catch all category, they are powered by negative energy. The positive energy good and some neutral clerics emanate to heal positive energy life disrupts negative energy life forms like undead.
It's about different elan vitals. At least that's how I see it.

[Dragonmuncher]

It comes down to the positive/negative energy thing. The same quality that lets them convert spells into Cure/Harm spells allows them to damage/control the undead.

As for turning devils and the like, I feel like there has to be a domain that allows you to do that. The elements have it, after all. I thought it would be Law, but that's a different power...

[hamlet]

It doesn't make much sense fluffwise. Why is channeling Positive energy towards a very particular purpose completely disconnected from every other spell a Cleric can have? Turn Undead would make perfect sense as a normal spell.

It probably has just a bit to do with the fact that, originally, turning undead had nothing to do with "channeling positive energy." It was, instead, probably created to reflect the "get thee behind me" aspect of Peter from the Bible.

[AllisterH]

Heh...Interesting D&D lore there.

As I remember it on enworld when Gygax was alive, it was because some guy who was playing in Dave Arneson's campaign somehow had a vampire lord, Count Fang I believe and with all its powers was running roughshod over the campaign.

So, they (Arnseon & Gygax) had to come up with a way to keep undead in check as someboy pointed out that even if it wasn't controlled by a player, what prevented other undead from running rampant (especially the level draining undead that cause the newly drained to rise as ghouls themselves?)_

Thus, the undead turning ability of the cleric was because there was a mechanical need to deal with undead that were stronger than normal monsters of their level.

In the AD&D colouring book, there's an encounter where Rob Kuntz party encounter a lich and the undead turning ability s described as a "prayer of abjuration versus the undead"

[nightwyrm]

Legacy effect.

It was in the first D&D to model the power of holy man driving away undead/unclean things/demons etc. (exorcisms and all that..). Later editions just kept it as something that clerics (and paladins) are able to do and modifies it a bit as editions rolled along.

edit: ninja'd a bunch of times.

[Foryn Gilnith]

But why can a cleric destroy skeletons, zombies and nightshades? Why can't a cleric of the resident lawful good god turn away demons like the priest in every second horror movie?

These don't really answer directly the question of why not fiends are exempt from turning.

[Ravens_cry]

Because fiends, incarnation of Evil or not, are closer to positive energy living things then undead are. And if you want to build your character so they CAN, the options are available.

[Foryn Gilnith]

It probably has just a bit to do with the fact that, originally, turning undead had nothing to do with "channeling positive energy."

And nightwyrm's post suggests that fiends were initially turnable by holy-men (I didn't play the editions before 3e, I wouldn't know).

When did it become undead-exclusive? Why did it become undead-exclusive?

[bosssmiley]

Q: Why can clerics turn undead/banish demons?
A: Because Abraham Van Helsing and The Exorcist.

All the Pos/Neg energy stuff is ex post facto backfilling.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Well, the title says it. What is it with clerics and undead, specifically? ?

Undead are powered by negative energy. Turn undead channels positive energy. Positive energy repels negative energy.

[Zaydos]

In 2e there was a line on the Turn Undead table for "Special Undead" which noted it included some demons and fiends. I think, though, demons and such were supposed to have much more spiritual power and thus be harder if not impossible to turn (especially since how it was phrased it left it up to the DM). So yeah Turn Undead is a legacy effect, and they weren't given Turn Demons because you wouldn't run into the various problems they have as much. Undead are quickly multiplying minions, demons are bosses; you can turn minions but not bosses. There are several variants that grant turn outsider instead of turn undead, but generally without giving outsiders significant Turn Resistance its a more powerful option.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Undead are quickly multiplying minions, demons are bosses; you can turn minions but not bosses.

Well, that's an interesting thought. Clarifies things.

[nightwyrm]

And nightwyrm's post suggests that fiends were initially turnable by holy-men (I didn't play the editions before 3e, I wouldn't know).

I think it was in 1st ed or maybe 0ed that demons were turnable. Heck, I remember evil clerics were able to turn paladins back then. No clue why they changed it. Maybe it was an attempt to balance/buff demons?

[hamlet]

And nightwyrm's post suggests that fiends were initially turnable by holy-men (I didn't play the editions before 3e, I wouldn't know).

When did it become undead-exclusive? Why did it become undead-exclusive?

They could turn demons/devils/etc. in early editions (all the way up until 2nd edition. It was 3.0 that nixed that as I recall.

The only proviso was that turning a demon or devil was very difficult for whatever reason.

EDIT:

So yeah Turn Undead is a legacy effect, and they weren't given Turn Demons because you wouldn't run into the various problems they have as much. Undead are quickly multiplying minions, demons are bosses; you can turn minions but not bosses.

It's worth noting that the power creep in demons/devils/dragons/giants was exponential (exremental according to a GM friend of mine) between 1st edition and 3.x. In 1st edition (and really in 0e as well) demons and devils were mostly mid-range foes, albeit dangerous ones that could very quickly turn the tide if one wasn't carefull. In 2nd edition, they became high level threats via the addition of more powers, immunities, hit dice, and so on, and one was safer talking one's way out of trouble than going toe-to-toe with one. By 3.x, they had become ridiculously over powered. The same can be said of giants and dragons. As far as I can tell, though, Angels (i.e., good outsiders) were always obscenely powerful.

[Sinfire Titan]

It doesn't make much sense fluffwise. Why is channeling Positive energy towards a very particular purpose completely disconnected from every other spell a Cleric can have? Turn Undead would make perfect sense as a normal spell.

TES did this. Turn Undead is a (not very powerful) spell in every one of the games.

Why can't a cleric of the resident lawful good god turn away demons like the priest in every second horror movie?

Because Outsiders are not made up of Negative Energy. Turn Undead channels Positive Energy, thus canceling the energy out. Undead fear this effect on an innate level, hence the fleeing part. If the source of the effect is too strong, the undead gets dusted.

[Jayabalard]

I think it was in 1st ed or maybe 0ed that demons were turnable. Heck, I remember evil clerics were able to turn paladins back then. No clue why they changed it. Maybe it was an attempt to balance/buff demons?

It was in the tables for AD&D (both 1e and 2e), though it was left fairly vague.

[LibraryOgre]

And no one yet has mentioned evil clerics turning Paladins...

[hamlet]

And no one yet has mentioned evil clerics turning Paladins...

Have done that to players more than once, though typically they cry foul.

Sissies.

[Hashmir]

Something just occurred to me. If good clerics channel positive energy to turn undead (by disrupting their negative energy)...

...then shouldn't evil clerics be able to turn anything that is not undead? By the same logic, shouldn't good clerics be able to rebuke the living?

[DrGonzo]

And no one yet has mentioned evil clerics turning Paladins...

nightwyrm did

I think it's beause the positive/negative energy opposing eachother. Demons and devils are made of eeeevil, which isn't the opposite of positive, so you can't turn them.

That's my two cp.

- DrGonzo

[AllisterH]

The 2e (black cover) Turning undead rules make no mention about FIENDS being turnable.

There's a line about Specal which refer to unique undead, undead of the NEP, certain Greater and Lesser Powers and undead from the outer planes. No mention of fiends there...

Not sure why it was dropped from the switchover from 1e to 2e but if I would hazard a guess, it was to make fiends tougher....

(and yeah, the 2e book still mentions evil undead being able to turn paladins...Yet funny enough, paladins turned as a cleric their level -2 so you would think priests could turn one another but nope...)

[hamlet]

The 2e (black cover) Turning undead rules make no mention about FIENDS being turnable.

There's a line about Specal which refer to unique undead, undead of the NEP, certain Greater and Lesser Powers and undead from the outer planes. No mention of fiends there...

Not sure why it was dropped from the switchover from 1e to 2e but if I would hazard a guess, it was to make fiends tougher....

(and yeah, the 2e book still mentions evil undead being able to turn paladins...Yet funny enough, paladins turned as a cleric their level -2 so you would think priests could turn one another but nope...)

Fiends were specifically mentioned in the first printing of 2ed PHB on the turning table, so it probably got accidentally or intentionally left out during the revision process by WOTC, and as I recall, that's about the time the backfill of "channeling positive energy" started coming in, so yeah.

[Sinfire Titan]

nightwyrm did

I think it's beause the positive/negative energy opposing eachother. Demons and devils are made of eeeevil, which isn't the opposite of positive, so you can't turn them.

That's my two cp.

- DrGonzo

You can sicken them quite easily with puppies, but they'll just start kicking.

[DrGonzo]

You can sicken them quite easily with puppies, but they'll just start kicking.

Yeah, demon + puppy = vital parts of your body all over the place.

I pass

[Thajocoth]

Because a cleric's rotation matrix is compatible with undead vectors.

[Reaper_Monkey]

Something just occurred to me. If good clerics channel positive energy to turn undead (by disrupting their negative energy)...

...then shouldn't evil clerics be able to turn anything that is not undead? By the same logic, shouldn't good clerics be able to rebuke the living?

Tis a good question, I think it lies in the fact that you don't actually produce a burst of positive energy whilst turning undead, which is why you don't heal allies whilst turning. However, as I have no idea why this is the case (as it should be) then I can't answer the real why, but effectively your not producing a negative energy burst so you don't injure your regularly living folks.

[Starbuck_II]

Tis a good question, I think it lies in the fact that you don't actually produce a burst of positive energy whilst turning undead, which is why you don't heal allies whilst turning. However, as I have no idea why this is the case (as it should be) then I can't answer the real why, but effectively your not producing a negative energy burst so you don't injure your regularly living folks.

Positive Energy does not automatically heal a living creature.
Unless Disrupt Undead (positive energy ray aka the Wizard cantrip) heals living even though it doesn't say it does. Making 1st lv Wiz better healers than 1st lv Clerics.