Questions about Ninja Stars!

[AtwasAwamps]

Hey folks,

So I am trying to figure something out. I would like to make a character based on hurling shurikens around with abandon (either monk/ninja into master thrower or fighter/ninja into master thrower…monk for flurry of blows/fighter for extra feats and stuff and stronger sudden strike (less levels taken in fighter for benefit than in monk) and both would be fun for me to flavor storywise which is important to me).

My question is: Shurikens are considered ammo. Though cheap to enchant, that means if they hit, they are probably destroyed. How does this work with the “returning” enhancement? Would my returning Shurikens usually be destroyed, rendering the whole thing pointless? Or does this enhancement make my shurikens capable of coming back without a problem?

Thanks ahead of time for the help! I know this character isn’t optimized, but it might be fun to mess around with and I enjoy concepts more than anything else.

[Starbuck_II]

My question is: Shurikens are considered ammo. Though cheap to enchant, that means if they hit, they are probably destroyed. How does this work with the “returning” enhancement? Would my returning Shurikens usually be destroyed, rendering the whole thing pointless? Or does this enhancement make my shurikens capable of coming back without a problem?

Thanks ahead of time for the help! I know this character isn’t optimized, but it might be fun to mess around with and I enjoy concepts more than anything else.

You can't put on returning. Otherwise, it would returned the ruined shuriken.

[PinkysBrain]

Destroyed magic items lose their properties ... so returning won't do much good.

Shuriken throwers don't work very well without some help from the DM for some custom magic items (gloves which add enhancement bonuses to shurikens for instance).

[AtwasAwamps]

Destroyed magic items lose their properties ... so returning won't do much good.

Shuriken throwers don't work very well without some help from the DM for some custom magic items (gloves which add enhancement bonuses to shurikens for instance).

That was the crux of my question...whether returning would somehow prevent my shurikens from being destroyed, or whether I would just get back broken scrap metal, or nothing at all. Thanks!

[ericgrau]

TWF, rapid shot, flurry, far shot, boots of speed (haste), master thrower. Use the cheap ammo for most enemies, save the good stuff for hard ones. If you can get a friendly caster with spells like flame arrow, even better.

[Douglas]

Half of your shurikens that miss would come back to you. The other half and all that hit would be destroyed. Yes, this makes magic shurikens of any type almost worthless.

Without custom items, pretty much the only way to make magical shurikens viable is to have a renewable source of Greater Magic Weapon and possibly some other temporary weapon buffing spells. If the party wizard casts GMW for you once in the morning, that gives you 50 magic shurikens for the day. That might not be enough depending on your level and the encounters you typically face, but very few campaigns would require more than 2 or 3 castings of GMW per day to keep you supplied. That leaves just the cost of replacing mundane shurikens to worry about, and those are cheap enough you could buy them by the truckload with no trouble.

If you don't want to depend on someone casting GMW for you, just about your only option is to ask your DM to let you have something that works for shurikens like a bow does for arrows with respect to magical enhancements.

[Mongoose87]

Without custom items, pretty much the only way to make magical shurikens viable is to have a renewable source of Greater Magic Weapon and possibly some other temporary weapon buffing spells.

Gloves that cast GMW 100 times/day, triggered by the act of throwing!

[Sinfire Titan]

You can get the same effect by reflavoring arrows to be shurikens, then buying the Raptor Arrows from the MiC. Ask your DM if you can apply your Shuirken proficiency to improvised arrows instead. It isn't that much of a stretch really.

[Zeta Kai]

I get the feeling that whoever wrote the crunch for weapons in 3E hated shurikens with a passion. They are the most useless weapons in the game, dealing damage so pathetic that it takes several of them to drop the average Commoner. Even the whip is more useful, because at least it can be used to trip. The poor throwing star is a wasted turn, guaranteed.

[JellyPooga]

I get the feeling that whoever wrote the crunch for weapons in 3E hated shurikens with a passion. They are the most useless weapons in the game, dealing damage so pathetic that it takes several of them to drop the average Commoner. Even the whip is more useful, because at least it can be used to trip. The poor throwing star is a wasted turn, guaranteed.

Unless you have some kind of bonus damage like, say, Sneak Attack, where your base weapon damage is largely irrelevant anyway...

[Yuki Akuma]

Buy daggers and pretend they're shuriken. Or, if you can't go that far, pretend they're kunai.

Problem solved.

[Starbuck_II]

I get the feeling that whoever wrote the crunch for weapons in 3E hated shurikens with a passion. They are the most useless weapons in the game, dealing damage so pathetic that it takes several of them to drop the average Commoner. Even the whip is more useful, because at least it can be used to trip. The poor throwing star is a wasted turn, guaranteed.

He hated slings, shuriken, and Whips.
Under rated slings (deadly as any bow but required more training).
Made Shurikens cheap, but weak.
Whips can't hurt most enemie.s

[Person_Man]

What Yuki said. There's not a lot of crunch reason to use shuriken. Although it's nice that you can use them with Flurry, Monk is usually a very weak choice, especially for mid-high level builds. If you're intent on using them, ask your DM for a custom set of magical gloves that create magical shuriken that last for 1 round as a Free Action. Just tac a few thousand gp onto the cost of a magic melee weapon, and call it a day.

[Grumman]

Made Shurikens cheap, but weak.

Aren't shurikens supposed to be weak? So he didn't buy into their great PR, that's nothing to be ashamed of.

[ericgrau]

Buy daggers and pretend they're shuriken. Or, if you can't go that far, pretend they're kunai.

Problem solved.

Cuz +1 damage solves everything? Stick with enchanting ammo. It'll take 50 combats for the daggers to catch up for the same price. By then you'll be 4 levels higher and the whatever you lost in the shurikens will be irrelevant. Meanwhile your costs are cheaper. And when you do finally run out and start over, your initial costs will be cheaper again. Plus you can save expensive shurikens for harder fights, cheap ones for easy fights, and save even more money. If you get an ally with flame arrow and GMW, it becomes as cheap as free for a while, and even when you buy magic ones the buffs still help.

bow > shuriken > throwing dagger

[Yuki Akuma]

Aren't shurikens supposed to be weak? So he didn't buy into their great PR, that's nothing to be ashamed of.

They are. They're also not actually weapons. The point of shuriken is to distract guards with "OH MY **** SHARDS OF METAL FLYING FOR MY FACE!".

So the designers made them weak, and then... gave them no special abilities related to how they were actually used. Great job!

Cuz +1 damage solves everything? Stick with enchanting ammo. It'll take 50 combats for the daggers to catch up for the same price. By then you'll be 4 levels higher and the whatever you lost in the shurikens will be irrelevant. Meanwhile your costs are cheaper. And when you do finally run out and start over, your initial costs will be cheaper again. Plus you can save expensive shurikens for harder fights, cheap ones for easy fights, and save even more money. If you get an ally with flame arrow and GMW, it becomes as cheap as free for a while, and even when you buy magic ones the buffs still help.

bow > shuriken > throwing dagger

Yeah. Sure. Whatever you say.

Do you honestly think I'm just worried about the insignificantly larger damage die on daggers? Really?

Are you really planning on only throwing one shuriken per combat?

The fact of the matter is, when you use a magic shuriken, it's gone. A magic dagger can be reused. There's no need to save your best magic daggers for the hardest fights because you use them all the time.

[ericgrau]

The fact of the matter is, when you use a magic shuriken, it's gone. A magic dagger can be reused. There's no need to save your best magic daggers for the hardest fights because you use them all the time.

Which is exactly why the dagger catches up in price later... after 50 combats. FIFTY COMBATS. Meanwhile the shurikens are cheaper up front. And by the time you level up 4+ times after all those combats (or more like 10 times in most groups), the money lost is insignificant and once again your new shurikens are cheaper than your new daggers. You can afford returning on several weapons at very high levels? Ok, switch to daggers at level 15+.

[Fishy]

Which is exactly why the dagger catches up in price later... after 50 combats. FIFTY COMBATS.

Are you throwing one shuriken per encounter?

I hate to be the one to tell you this, but that's not terribly effective.

[chiasaur11]

I get the feeling that whoever wrote the crunch for weapons in 3E hated shurikens with a passion. They are the most useless weapons in the game, dealing damage so pathetic that it takes several of them to drop the average Commoner. Even the whip is more useful, because at least it can be used to trip. The poor throwing star is a wasted turn, guaranteed.

On the other hand, they're the best weapon for destroying the world in one punch.

[The Rose Dragon]

They are. They're also not actually weapons. The point of shuriken is to distract guards with "OH MY **** SHARDS OF METAL FLYING FOR MY FACE!".

So the designers made them weak, and then... gave them no special abilities related to how they were actually used. Great job!

I'm not sure where, but I recall somewhere shurikens had a bonus to feinting or distraction checks using Bluff in addition to dealing minimal damage.

[Fishy]

Shuriken

A shuriken is a special monk weapon. This designation gives a monk wielding shuriken special options. A shuriken can’t be used as a melee weapon.

Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them and what happens to them after they are thrown.

Aaand, that's it. So, no. Being able to draw them as a free action is kind of nice, but nothing to write home about.

[The Rose Dragon]

Aaand, that's it. So, no. Being able to draw them as a free action is kind of nice, but nothing to write home about.

I didn't say it was in PHB. I said it was somewhere. That could include any of the multitudes of OGL-based systems out there.

[Jergmo]

I've been told that you're able to throw multiple shurikens in a round, and that was supposed to make up for their low damage.

Also, on slings? They don't suck, people just underestimate them.

Take an 18 strength fighter. A longbow does 1d8 damage. That's an "average" of 4 damage that isn't really going to happen that often. Sure, he could buy a composite longbow, but to get full benefits, it'd cost 500 gp without masterwork.

A sling is pretty much free, and the fighter is doing 1d4+4 damage. That's a guaranteed 5, at least, and can do up to the maximum damage of a longbow.

(I had an orc barbarian NPC that was a very nasty encounter. It was just a level 1 with a sling, a flaw, and Point Blank/Rapid Shot.)

Edit: And the sling still has a pretty nice range!

[ericgrau]

Are you throwing one shuriken per encounter?

I hate to be the one to tell you this, but that's not terribly effective.

No, of course not. You throw exactly as many shurikens as daggers each combat. It takes 50 combats no matter how you slice it. 10 daggers thrown each combat cost the same as 500 shurikens thrown 10 times for each of 50 combats. Etc. You can only retrieve your daggers once per combat, after it is over.

Slings are awesome at low levels, better than bows or throwing weapons or anything. Until you get 2 attacks. Then it's "oh, move action to reload? How about rapid rel- oh, crossbows only. Um. Crud."

[Yuki Akuma]

I've been told that you're able to throw multiple shurikens in a round, and that was supposed to make up for their low damage.

But you can draw arrows as a free action, and they deal much more damage and cost less. And have a greater range.

Also, Quick Draw.

Rapid Shot doesn't work with slings. Move action to reload. And Rapid Reload doesn't apply to them.

So yes, you can very easily make hard encounters by breaking the rules. What's your point?

[ericgrau]

But you can draw arrows as a free action, and they deal much more damage and cost less. And have a greater range.

Also, Quick Draw.

Exactly. And you can enchant the bow just one time, rather than 10 different throwing weapons or expendable ammo (and this time it's 50 shurikens equals 1 weapon, not 500 vs. 10 weapons or etc.). Bow > shuriken > throwing dagger.

[Jergmo]

But you can draw arrows as a free action, and they deal much more damage and cost less. And have a greater range.

Also, Quick Draw.

And you can only shoot as many arrows as you can according to your full attack. Which have a lower chance of hitting than the initial shot.

[Starbuck_II]

I've been told that you're able to throw multiple shurikens in a round, and that was supposed to make up for their low damage.

3.0: you got 3 shurikens per attack. So if you have +6 BAB, that is 6 shurikens.
Granted in 3.0 no add Str bonus.

[Yuki Akuma]

And you can only shoot as many arrows as you can according to your full attack. Which have a lower chance of hitting than the initial shot.

...Which also applies to shuriken and for that matter every other weapon. I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

[Grumman]

Slings are awesome at low levels, better than bows or throwing weapons or anything. Until you get 2 attacks. Then it's "oh, move action to reload? How about rapid rel- oh, crossbows only. Um. Crud."

Clearly, you should have bought an Aptitude sling.