[3.5] Incorporating magic into my setting without making the tippyverse.

[Myou]

The setting I use is a world covered in ocean, peppered wth small to medium-sized tropical islands. The north and south poles are cut off by endless storms that no-one has survived entering and the material plane is cut off from all others by a impenetrable barrier that stops anyone leaving or entering the plane.

So far we've only spent time in the relatively backwards west side of a large island, but when we get to the east coast on the other side of the mountains, where the odd village in the jungle gives way to plains, and there are a couple of towns and a city, I want to start including more magical effects, as the setting has level 20+ spellcasters in it, and so magic should be available, at a cost, to almost anyone.

Most isolated settlements are self-governing and citie usually function as city-states, although on larger islands they may form competing small countries.

A quick note, magical traps can only be used for offensive spells, and don't autoreset, so no traps to make food, etc.

One thing I though of is having all major shops part of a merchant's guild (or several competing guilds) and the shops all being nearly empty, instead housing teleportation circles that allow shopkeepers to order whatever customers want to buy from one vast magical storehouse, which would hold almost anything you can buy (although really rare stuff wouldn't be certain to be in stock, or even stocked at all).

What do you think of my idea, and what other reasonable uses would magic logically be put to?

[Crafty Cultist]

transporting goods by teleportation makes sense if the merchants can afford it. a teleportation feild in each town would allow for easy travel for those permitted to use it. given the small islands, expantion might go upwards, making floating buildings common

[Myou]

transporting goods by teleportation makes sense if the merchants can afford it. a teleportation feild in each town would allow for easy travel for those permitted to use it. given the small islands, expantion might go upwards, making floating buildings common

Teleporation field?

The population isn't really high enough for there to be overcrowding, 95% of the current island is wilderness, but that's a great idea if I make a tiny island with a higher-than-average population. :3

[ericgrau]

Adventurers and other wealthy people are rare, so magic items can only solve the problems of a few rich people, not everyone. Remember how the Azure City rebellion is having food shortages simply because they have no clerics high enough level to cast create food and water? Custom items and traps should be allowed by DM approval only. Other stuff that's so obviously cheesy that you notice it at first glance can be simply denied the moment it shows its face.

[Myou]

Adventurers and other wealthy people are rare, so magic items can only solve the problems of a few rich people, not everyone. Remember how the Azure City rebellion is having food shortages simply because they have no clerics high enough level to cast create food and water? Custom items and traps should be allowed by DM approval only. Other stuff that's so obviously cheesy that you notice it at first glance can be simply denied the moment it shows its face.

Well, the thing is that in my game he average wealth level is a bit higher, so a merchant can afford to invest in a teleportation circle.

So while so far the only magic has been in the hands of the privaleged few, I'm looking for ways that magic would reasonably manifest in the world, both in the hands of rich NPCs and the middle classes, and even commoners. If that makes sense. ^^;

[Myrmex]

One alternative is to create NPC rules for team crafting where a bunch of people working together can do something, or power materials that low level users can convert into high level effects.

For instance, a 50,000gp room seems ridiculous if its assumed that King Not-So-Powerful had to pay for it all at once in gold coins. But that's not how governments work. It was bled out of the peasants over 50 years, and he's inherited it.

Kind of like how a castle is really pricey for an adventurer to purchase, but quite cheap for someone with a monopoly on coercive force (a government).

You have to recognize that gp is a placeholder for material wealth for PCs and should be largely ignored for NPC organizations.

[Myou]

One alternative is to create NPC rules for team crafting where a bunch of people working together can do something, or power materials that low level users can convert into high level effects.

For instance, a 50,000gp room seems ridiculous if its assumed that King Not-So-Powerful had to pay for it all at once in gold coins. But that's not how governments work. It was bled out of the peasants over 50 years, and he's inherited it.

Kind of like how a castle is really pricey for an adventurer to purchase, but quite cheap for someone with a monopoly on coercive force (a government).

You have to recognize that gp is a placeholder for material wealth for PCs and should be largely ignored for NPC organizations.

I'm probably not making my self very clear, sorry. What I'm looking for are ideas on what uses magic would be put to, assuming that even high level spells are affordable if they give some return on the investment.

Another idea I just had is for centralised banks that use teleportation circles to move money to a vault complex, and issue magical banknotes to the owners to allow for transactions without carrying actual carts of gold everywhere.

It's a good point you make about government contruction and labour though.

[TheLogman]

Well, for this, I shall turn to Maslow's Hierarchy.

First Step: Food, Water, Shelter, Sleep
Second Step: Health and safety of self and friends/family
Third Step: Love and Belonging
Fourth Step: Self-Esteem, Confidence, Respect
Fifth Step: Self Actualization.

So, if magic is really expensive, and only nobles can buy magic items, they'll buy things that make the first step easier before the second step, the second step before the third step, and the like.

So, magic items that create food, Hero's Feast or just Create Food and Water are first. A neverending well or sink could provide infinite personal or communal water.

If a noble or his family is sick though, he may avoid spending on future welfare to spend on immediate health. Potions of Neutralize posion or Cure Disease, or remove blindness or deafness may be purchased when needed, or for the very rich, bought and kept in reserve.

For Safety, it really comes down to protecting the castle. Magical defenses on castle walls, alarms for the main doors, magic sentries and other defenses. Only the very richest can afford magically protected anything.

Then even more expensive comes assurance from death. Contingencies to save the noble or his family from immediate danger, and perhaps items or raise dead or resurrection for the highest royalty.

The only other thing the average noble will buy magically wise is something to A. Impress a potential lover, or B. Snare a potential lover.

But that's frivolous spending, especially in a world of low and expensive magic.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

In the campaign I wrote up, there were Gates, which were two portals large enough for a cart to go through, specifically linked to each other. One walks through one, and out the other, regardless of distance between.

Such things are... expensive. Like Millions of GP expensive. So they are mostly owned and operated by cartels and other similarly wealthy organizations. But hey, getting from one side of the empire to the other, instantly, without risking any cargo (which is a major concern on that particular trade route) is worth it. Getting luxury items, or heck even perishables, a few thousand miles safely can mean *huge* profits. Also, when you aren't using it, you can charge people a *nominal* fee (something like 1k gp per person, with a 5k gp per vehicle or pack animal) to use it as well. Or better, let the nobles use it... for a Favor.

The Wizard's Guild, of course, keeps the secret of these portals... very secret. One of their most profitable magic items they've got. And you better believe that they've got a clause specifying that they can use 'em whenever they want to, at no charge.

[Myou]

Well, for this, I shall turn to Maslow's Hierarchy.

First Step: Food, Water, Shelter, Sleep
Second Step: Health and safety of self and friends/family
Third Step: Love and Belonging
Fourth Step: Self-Esteem, Confidence, Respect
Fifth Step: Self Actualization.

So, if magic is really expensive, and only nobles can buy magic items, they'll buy things that make the first step easier before the second step, the second step before the third step, and the like.

So, magic items that create food, Hero's Feast or just Create Food and Water are first. A neverending well or sink could provide infinite personal or communal water.

If a noble or his family is sick though, he may avoid spending on future welfare to spend on immediate health. Potions of Neutralize posion or Cure Disease, or remove blindness or deafness may be purchased when needed, or for the very rich, bought and kept in reserve.

For Safety, it really comes down to protecting the castle. Magical defenses on castle walls, alarms for the main doors, magic sentries and other defenses. Only the very richest can afford magically protected anything.

Then even more expensive comes assurance from death. Contingencies to save the noble or his family from immediate danger, and perhaps items or raise dead or resurrection for the highest royalty.

The only other thing the average noble will buy magically wise is something to A. Impress a potential lover, or B. Snare a potential lover.

But that's frivolous spending, especially in a world of low and expensive magic.

Hmmm, so towns and cities would have communal magic wells and food dispensers, perhaps with a small charge for use? They could be provided by some sort of guild to towns that want them, who run them for a respectable profit. I like guilds. x3

There aren't really many kings or royalty, since most islands only hold a few towns/villages, but there are aristocrats on larger islands.

Hmmm, poorer people travel by ship, but the wealthy might not do that - they could hire wizards to teleport them places, the you only need ships for transporting very large cargos, or going to places that none of the avialable wizards have seen before.

In the campaign I wrote up, there were Gates, which were two portals large enough for a cart to go through, specifically linked to each other. One walks through one, and out the other, regardless of distance between.

Such things are... expensive. Like Millions of GP expensive. So they are mostly owned and operated by cartels and other similarly wealthy organizations. But hey, getting from one side of the empire to the other, instantly, without risking any cargo (which is a major concern on that particular trade route) is worth it. Getting luxury items, or heck even perishables, a few thousand miles safely can mean *huge* profits. Also, when you aren't using it, you can charge people a *nominal* fee (something like 1k gp per person, with a 5k gp per vehicle or pack animal) to use it as well. Or better, let the nobles use it... for a Favor.

The Wizard's Guild, of course, keeps the secret of these portals... very secret. One of their most profitable magic items they've got. And you better believe that they've got a clause specifying that they can use 'em whenever they want to, at no charge.

I like the idea of that, but I'm trying to only bring in magic where it would logically crop up, so since there's no existing spell for that I don't have to worry there. I don't want travel to become instantanious, I want it to take time and effort.

[elliott20]

I personally find it odd that magical items never need any sort of upkeep to maintain. That is, barring an item running out of charges or consumables you will never actually see a magical item needing fixing.

this is especially true when it comes to infrastructure. Once you create a teleportation circle, you never really need to do much to keep it running. And that to me seems rather odd. The idea here is that the magic never deteriorates in quality (I guess magic doesn't have a half-life), the infrastructure it is set upon is NEVER breaking or disturbed, and not even the ink you use to draw the damn circle gets smudged, despite having 100,000 different things getting dragged over it on a daily basis. To me, that just seems really weird.

One of the major obstacles for major infrastructure investments in a lot of organization tends come down to two things: investment capital and maintenance requirements.

the higher income level means that the first one is less effective. so if you want to prevent magic from flooding the world, the best way is probably to focus on the second one.

It doesn't even need to be something big, it just needs to be something that takes up some resources. i.e. a teleportation circle with permanency cast on it might still require a level appropriate wizard drop by every so often to re-charge the magical infrastructure to make sure it holds. It doesn't need to be another permanency spell, it could just be he has to unload a level 9 spell slot or some such and then just charge for the spell slot itself. As long as something like that is there, it will go a long way in preventing excessive magical proliferation.

[Myou]

I personally find it odd that magical items never need any sort of upkeep to maintain. That is, barring an item running out of charges or consumables you will never actually see a magical item needing fixing.

this is especially true when it comes to infrastructure. Once you create a teleportation circle, you never really need to do much to keep it running. And that to me seems rather odd. The idea here is that the magic never deteriorates in quality (I guess magic doesn't have a half-life), the infrastructure it is set upon is NEVER breaking or disturbed, and not even the ink you use to draw the damn circle gets smudged, despite having 100,000 different things getting dragged over it on a daily basis. To me, that just seems really weird.

One of the major obstacles for major infrastructure investments in a lot of organization tends come down to two things: investment capital and maintenance requirements.

the higher income level means that the first one is less effective. so if you want to prevent magic from flooding the world, the best way is probably to focus on the second one.

It doesn't even need to be something big, it just needs to be something that takes up some resources. i.e. a teleportation circle with permanency cast on it might still require a level appropriate wizard drop by every so often to re-charge the magical infrastructure to make sure it holds. It doesn't need to be another permanency spell, it could just be he has to unload a level 9 spell slot or some such and then just charge for the spell slot itself. As long as something like that is there, it will go a long way in preventing excessive magical proliferation.

I love the idea, but I'm a little concerned, because I don't want players to have to worry about their premanent magical items and devices failing on them or needing upkeep, and yet if an NPC cicle can fail a PC one can too. It would require quite a bit of houseruling it seems too, to establish a mechanic for spell failure. Is there a better way of doing it?

[Khanderas]

Everything decays.
Make it so that this applies to magic as well. While it would survive a generation perhaps, most magic items and effects have been created by a wizard not that long ago. Artifacts would be exempt but the knowledge to make those are lost to the ages and would be very sought after. Infact a +1 sword that is permanent problebly counts as an artifact in regards to noteriety.

Big things, like teleportation fields can be made but would decay in months and not practical compared to mundane (or enhanced) ships. Floating buildings just wont happen with the cost compared to how long it lasts.

Why does it work like this ? Well some theories are out there, the most popular one is that magic power is "slow". The force that powers it grows from the world itself and settles, spending large quantities of it (especially in fixed locations) thin the density of magic down, while it always flows back in, it does so farily slowly. Mages and Sages agree it can be described kinda like this, then start to pull out advanced math with exceptions, details, formulaes and more. Usually noncasters stop being able to follow at this time. So its "kinda" like this. This explanation is good enough for noncasters anyway.

(another reason to have wizard towers far out from civilization, so they dont have to share the power with neighbouring nobles with +1 swords and cantripping posers)

[Myou]

Everything decays.
Make it so that this applies to magic as well. While it would survive a generation perhaps, most magic items and effects have been created by a wizard not that long ago. Artifacts would be exempt but the knowledge to make those are lost to the ages and would be very sought after. Infact a +1 sword that is permanent problebly counts as an artifact in regards to noteriety.

Big things, like teleportation fields can be made but would decay in months and not practical compared to mundane (or enhanced) ships. Floating buildings just wont happen with the cost compared to how long it lasts.

Why does it work like this ? Well some theories are out there, the most popular one is that magic power is "slow". The force that powers it grows from the world itself and settles, spending large quantities of it (especially in fixed locations) thin the density of magic down, while it always flows back in, it does so farily slowly. Mages and Sages agree it can be described kinda like this, then start to pull out advanced math with exceptions, details, formulaes and more. Usually noncasters stop being able to follow at this time. So its "kinda" like this. This explanation is good enough for noncasters anyway.

(another reason to have wizard towers far out from civilization, so they dont have to share the power with neighbouring nobles with +1 swords and cantripping posers)

Except that I don't want to introduce rules for items decaying, and I already have very different fluff for how magic works.

I don't really see a way to make this practical without houseruling durations for permanent spells. xP

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I like the idea of that, but I'm trying to only bring in magic where it would logically crop up, so since there's no existing spell for that I don't have to worry there. I don't want travel to become instantanious, I want it to take time and effort.

It's called Circle of Teleportation. It'll also charge the PC's like 10k to bring an average party through... so it's not free. And it only goes city to city, and only to a specific city. So it's kind of like an Airport, you go from city to city, then you travel from there to your ultimate destination.

Travel *IS* already instantaneous after 9th level if you have an arcane caster n the party, because he can just teleport everyone around to wherever they need to be. Face it, any party with an arcane caster that has 5th level spells (unless they banned Conjuration for some reason) has instantaneous transportation to anywhere they've ever been. After they get 7th level spells, they get Greater Teleport, and get instantaneous transportation to anywhere they'd ever want to be.

[Myou]

It's called Circle of Teleportation. It'll also charge the PC's like 10k to bring an average party through... so it's not free. And it only goes city to city, and only to a specific city. So it's kind of like an Airport, you go from city to city, then you travel from there to your ultimate destination.

Travel *IS* already instantaneous after 9th level if you have an arcane caster n the party, because he can just teleport everyone around to wherever they need to be. Face it, any party with an arcane caster that has 5th level spells (unless they banned Conjuration for some reason) has instantaneous transportation to anywhere they've ever been. After they get 7th level spells, they get Greater Teleport, and get instantaneous transportation to anywhere they'd ever want to be.

Oh, you mean Teleportation Circle? I thought you were talking about something more like a homebrew portable Gate spell.

Greater Teleport only works if you have a well-defined target and a caster, at those high levels that's fine. I'm referring more to lower levels - low level players and NPCs shouldn't be able to teleport all the time.

I think that fees to use a city's Teleportation Circles works well. and they'd only link to allied cities of course, so it would be rare to see one that went further than perhaps the next island.

[Flickerdart]

Nope. Teleportation carries you, I believe, through the Ethereal or Astral plane, meaning that if as you say the Material Plane is cut off from everything, then teleporting's not gonna be happening. You could use Wind Walk to get around that, and such. I mean sure, you could refluff that, but it seems like a fun enough limitation.

And "impenetrable barriers" don't really exist to 20+ level spellcasters. They'd just all get together, jury-rig an Epic spell and make everything working properly. Or the players will convince them to do that/do that themselves. The fun comes in thinking up the hilarious and fatal consequences of this.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Oh, you mean Teleportation Circle? I thought you were talking about something more like a homebrew portable Gate spell.

Greater Teleport only works if you have a well-defined target and a caster, at those high levels that's fine. I'm referring more to lower levels - low level players and NPCs shouldn't be able to teleport all the time.

I think that fees to use a city's Teleportation Circles works well. and they'd only link to allied cities of course, so it would be rare to see one that went further than perhaps the next island.

Basically, they use Circle of Teleportation, although they are called 'Gates', and only teleport you from and to one specific 'pad'. Thus, Gate A is linked to Gate B. You can use Gate A to get to Gate B, and vice versa. You can't use either to get to Gate C.

In my game, they were aligned along economic trade routes, particularly the more dangerous ones. So going from Metropolis A to Metropolis B requires the caravan to trek through the Blighted Lands, then through the Dead Moor, then through the Haunted Hills, would likely have a set of Gates set up between them, because of the economic advantage of trade goods more easily getting between them.

In my game, they were only used in one nation, which was huge, so political alliances were not a significant issue. But the problem with multiple smaller nations is that you need a large Wizard's Guild to be able to fund the research and build the Gates. Without a centralized group of Wizards able to make them, they won't exist. Therefore, either the Wizard's Guild will have to be a separate political entity, at least partially above and beyond more mundane politics, or you will have different Wizard's Guilds vying for the secrets.

[Ormur]

Even if the magic lasts forever the magic circles may not. Accidents happen, once in a a century magical phenomena and hostile or careless wizards may simply dispel it. It's also reasonable to assume that the organization that bought the teleportation ring had to take out a loan for most of the price so there would be interest payments.

The way to make expensive magical items commonplace is for them to be used by the community or the government for the benefit of all the citizens. Magic items for defense of course but perhaps a lyre of building for building new infrastructure, decanters of endless water for plumbing etc. Mage hand magic items also make good endlessly pumping pumps.

[Myou]

Nope. Teleportation carries you, I believe, through the Ethereal or Astral plane, meaning that if as you say the Material Plane is cut off from everything, then teleporting's not gonna be happening. You could use Wind Walk to get around that, and such. I mean sure, you could refluff that, but it seems like a fun enough limitation.

And "impenetrable barriers" don't really exist to 20+ level spellcasters. They'd just all get together, jury-rig an Epic spell and make everything working properly. Or the players will convince them to do that/do that themselves. The fun comes in thinking up the hilarious and fatal consequences of this.

Perhaps you're thinking of fluff? I don't see anything like that in the spell description. And fluff that pointless can die in a fire.

Also, WotC epic spellcasting already did die in a fire, so that's not happening. See my sig if you're curious. Breaking through that barrier is a potential plot point though.

Basically, they use Circle of Teleportation, although they are called 'Gates', and only teleport you from and to one specific 'pad'. Thus, Gate A is linked to Gate B. You can use Gate A to get to Gate B, and vice versa. You can't use either to get to Gate C.

In my game, they were aligned along economic trade routes, particularly the more dangerous ones. So going from Metropolis A to Metropolis B requires the caravan to trek through the Blighted Lands, then through the Dead Moor, then through the Haunted Hills, would likely have a set of Gates set up between them, because of the economic advantage of trade goods more easily getting between them.

In my game, they were only used in one nation, which was huge, so political alliances were not a significant issue. But the problem with multiple smaller nations is that you need a large Wizard's Guild to be able to fund the research and build the Gates. Without a centralized group of Wizards able to make them, they won't exist. Therefore, either the Wizard's Guild will have to be a separate political entity, at least partially above and beyond more mundane politics, or you will have different Wizard's Guilds vying for the secrets.

Well I was thinking that the real power in the world will lie in the hands of guilds. A merchant's guild that uses circles to transport stock to sellers, a banking guild that does the same sort of thing with wealth and issues 'banknotes', the church that supplies divine casting (following Pelor), the Arcane Order that supplies arcane casting and some sort of thieves guild that supplies crime. :3

I'm not sure if each should be unique to its field of have multiple competitors.

I'm also not sure if there should be any other major organisations.

Even if the magic lasts forever the magic circles may not. Accidents happen, once in a a century magical phenomena and hostile or careless wizards may simply dispel it. It's also reasonable to assume that the organization that bought the teleportation ring had to take out a loan for most of the price so there would be interest payments.

The way to make expensive magical items commonplace is for them to be used by the community or the government for the benefit of all the citizens. Magic items for defense of course but perhaps a lyre of building for building new infrastructure, decanters of endless water for plumbing etc. Mage hand magic items also make good endlessly pumping pumps.

Ah, that sounds better. :3
Perhaps the mages won't sell them, only rent them out.

And yes, that sounds good. Large cities might have some of those things.
What does the lyre do?

[Another_Poet]

I think that mid-level wizards would probably have one or more guilds that run a monopoly on the teleport rings. Assuming every large town wants one, they'd have a tidy business for themselves.

I would not have individual teleport circles in merchant shops. Maybe some kings or nobles would have private teleport circles, but most merchants would use the communal teleporter in the middle of town. The guild that owns the teleporter would charge the merchants a fee for regularly bringing shipments through. If they're smart the teleporter guilds would also buy up the major stockhouses that the merchants receive the shipments from, making money on both ends. But merchant guilds would fight hard to keep control over the stockhouses themselves, and instead get gouged on shipping fees between warehouses or from warehouse to retail.

Ideally no town would ever have to buy a teleport circle. Instead they pay an ongoing (monthly or yearly) usage fee, with the understanding that the teleporter guild will dispel the thing if the town ever gets behind on payments. In the long run this is better for the teleporter guild (as they have a customer forever, and will eventually accrue far more profit than if they had charged for a one-time sale of the teleport ring). It's also a good deal for the towns, because they don't have to make a large up-front investment and the maintenance of the teleporter is handled by the teleporter guild (for instance if it gets dispelled or the settings need to be changed to not allow incoming teleports from an enemy nation, the guild handles it as part of their contract).

Basically, smart capitalists will make magic a service industry rather than relying on the sale of magic items.

Other perks of a magic society include cheap labour from golems or animated objects, (or undead but probably frowned upon), good health care, wider availability of luxuries such as hot water or iced drinks, more interesting illegal services (both of the prostitution and mind-altering-substance varieties), and potentially a better criminal justice system if constables learn to rely on magical investigators and leave behind medieval principles of "justice".

Some of the above have major downfalls, however. Cheap labour can destroy an economy quickly. If animated objects do all the drudge work for cheap, living people are out of jobs. This makes people angry.

I would steer clear of Heroes' Feast and Create Food/Water because important people stand to lose a lot of money if these are put into regular use. Lords rely on serfs for tax money, military service and the perception of importance; serfs are tied hand-in-hand with an agricultural economy. Delete the need for agriculture, and your serfs either get lazy (if they get food and don't have to work) or rebellious (if they are not beneficiaries of the new free food policy). Plus, the tax base of the economy (grain) falls out and you have lords who can no longer afford the magical and mundane equipment they need to conduct a war. Since their whole right to rule is predicated on the idea that they will defend the land and keep the people safe, they feel threatened by this even if there is no immediate threat.

In short: If magic is implemented too broadly and on purely capitalistic terms, you will see destabilisation of the aristocratic regime and widespread rebellion against feudal monarchy. In fact, it will be exactly like what happened when technology and capitalism were broadly implemented in the real world.

If you wish to keep a more medieval fantasy feel, concentrate the magical services in the hands of a few cabal-like guilds and make sure they have an elabourate, balanced relationship with the nobles on one hand and the clergy on the other. Look at Renaissance Italy for inspiration. Leave out the food-creating magic (and possibly the free labour magic) and just assume that the Powers the Be have discouraged such magics while encouraging more profitable things.

Also, war sucks in a high magic world. Chemical and biological weapons are nothing compared to wizards on the loose. Assume that entire towns/cities are destroyed, charmed, undeaded, diseased, or mutated when war breaks out.

[tyckspoon]

The lyre is also useful with respect to building. Once a week its strings can be strummed so as to produce chords that magically construct buildings, mines, tunnels, ditches, or whatever. The effect produced in but 30 minutes of playing is equal to the work of 100 humans laboring for three days. Each hour after the first, a character playing the lyre must make a DC 18 Perform (string instruments) check. If it fails, she must stop and cannot play the lyre again for this purpose until a week has passed.

It completely destroys any reason to have a construction industry, basically. You can have the support businesses around it- you'll still need people to harvest and haul in wood and stone and whatnot to build things with, for example- but almost all of the actual building can be done by a 1st level Expert playing a lyre for a couple of hours (Take 10 +4 Ranks + 3 Skill Focus +2 Masterwork Tool [the lyre you're playing- magic items must be of masterwork quality..] = cannot fail. He can build most of a town for you in one day if you find a way to prevent Exhaustion.)

[Asheram]

According to Stronghold builders guide, a two-way gate would cost 150.000gp, Market price and require a caster L17
300.000gp if you want one about big enough to take two carts through simultaneous (might have the math wrong on that, they're describing it quite strangely in the book.)

A two-way portal, that is.

[Myou]

I think that mid-level wizards would probably have one or more guilds that run a monopoly on the teleport rings. Assuming every large town wants one, they'd have a tidy business for themselves.

I would not have individual teleport circles in merchant shops. Maybe some kings or nobles would have private teleport circles, but most merchants would use the communal teleporter in the middle of town. The guild that owns the teleporter would charge the merchants a fee for regularly bringing shipments through. If they're smart the teleporter guilds would also buy up the major stockhouses that the merchants receive the shipments from, making money on both ends. But merchant guilds would fight hard to keep control over the stockhouses themselves, and instead get gouged on shipping fees between warehouses or from warehouse to retail.

Well, the thing is that by havig a circle in each shop no shop has to carry any stock at all - they just take the customer's order then return in a few minute wth the item(s). The guild wouldn't let a circle leading to it's central vault be in public.

The merchant's guild would actually be in competititon with the wizard's guild in a way - the merchants can offer items and scrolls that do what the wizards do, and while it costs more, it lets them make the circles themselves for example.

Ideally no town would ever have to buy a teleport circle. Instead they pay an ongoing (monthly or yearly) usage fee, with the understanding that the teleporter guild will dispel the thing if the town ever gets behind on payments. In the long run this is better for the teleporter guild (as they have a customer forever, and will eventually accrue far more profit than if they had charged for a one-time sale of the teleport ring). It's also a good deal for the towns, because they don't have to make a large up-front investment and the maintenance of the teleporter is handled by the teleporter guild (for instance if it gets dispelled or the settings need to be changed to not allow incoming teleports from an enemy nation, the guild handles it as part of their contract).

Basically, smart capitalists will make magic a service industry rather than relying on the sale of magic items.

Mmmm, yeah, the wizard's guild would just rent the circle, and dispel it if you stopped paying. We think alike.
Only big towns and cities would have a circle, and only to the most trusted allied towns.

Other perks of a magic society include cheap labour from golems or animated objects, (or undead but probably frowned upon), good health care, wider availability of luxuries such as hot water or iced drinks, more interesting illegal services (both of the prostitution and mind-altering-substance varieties), and potentially a better criminal justice system if constables learn to rely on magical investigators and leave behind medieval principles of "justice".

Some of the above have major downfalls, however. Cheap labour can destroy an economy quickly. If animated objects do all the drudge work for cheap, living people are out of jobs. This makes people angry.

Mmm, this is just the sort of thing I have to account for.
What could prevent or make impractical the use of animated objects or golems en-masse?
If no-one has a better idea perhaps I could introduce a houserule that any aimated object that exists long enough becomes truely sentient, making it moraly unacceptable to use them as free labour?

I would steer clear of Heroes' Feast and Create Food/Water because important people stand to lose a lot of money if these are put into regular use. Lords rely on serfs for tax money, military service and the perception of importance; serfs are tied hand-in-hand with an agricultural economy. Delete the need for agriculture, and your serfs either get lazy (if they get food and don't have to work) or rebellious (if they are not beneficiaries of the new free food policy). Plus, the tax base of the economy (grain) falls out and you have lords who can no longer afford the magical and mundane equipment they need to conduct a war. Since their whole right to rule is predicated on the idea that they will defend the land and keep the people safe, they feel threatened by this even if there is no immediate threat.

But how can the use of those spells be stopped? Without banning them that is.

In short: If magic is implemented too broadly and on purely capitalistic terms, you will see destabilisation of the aristocratic regime and widespread rebellion against feudal monarchy. In fact, it will be exactly like what happened when technology and capitalism were broadly implemented in the real world.

Well, so far no real nobles have come up, so its perfectly feasable to have them replaced by the wealhy mercantile families. The problem then is simply finding jobs for the lower classes to keep the economy moving.

If you wish to keep a more medieval fantasy feel, concentrate the magical services in the hands of a few cabal-like guilds and make sure they have an elabourate, balanced relationship with the nobles on one hand and the clergy on the other. Look at Renaissance Italy for inspiration. Leave out the food-creating magic (and possibly the free labour magic) and just assume that the Powers the Be have discouraged such magics while encouraging more profitable things.

Hmmm, I like that a lot, my setting was inspired by the Italian city-states. But I really want a more solid reason not to use food creation items. That or a way to incorporate them without breaking the universe.

Also, war sucks in a high magic world. Chemical and biological weapons are nothing compared to wizards on the loose. Assume that entire towns/cities are destroyed, charmed, undeaded, diseased, or mutated when war breaks out.

Heh heh, there's no real war in the current region because the place is pretty quiet and peaceful, but as you say, on other islands/island chains politics are sometimes extremely tense, since each side has wizards of mass destruction.

Thanks for your post, you've been of great help!

[Myou]

It completely destroys any reason to have a construction industry, basically. You can have the support businesses around it- you'll still need people to harvest and haul in wood and stone and whatnot to build things with, for example- but almost all of the actual building can be done by a 1st level Expert playing a lyre for a couple of hours (Take 10 +4 Ranks + 3 Skill Focus +2 Masterwork Tool [the lyre you're playing- magic items must be of masterwork quality..] = cannot fail. He can build most of a town for you in one day if you find a way to prevent Exhaustion.)

Hmmm, I think it might be a good idea to ban that particular item, since it is fairly obscure and won't be much missed. I'd rather the world not depend on musical insturments to build housing. xD

But at the same time its a cool and stylish touch, and does, as you say, require ancillary industry. How much does it cost?

According to Stronghold builders guide, a two-way gate would cost 150.000gp, Market price and require a caster L17
300.000gp if you want one about big enough to take two carts through simultaneous (might have the math wrong on that, they're describing it quite strangely in the book.)

A two-way portal, that is.

Hmmm, is that a two-way Gate spell? If so it seems a bit overpriced - a Teleportation Circle would only be about 30,000 gold, so 60,000 for two.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hmmm, I think it might be a good idea to ban that particular item, since it is fairly obscure and won't be much missed. I'd rather the world not depend on musical insturments to build housing. xD

But at the same time its a cool and stylish touch, and does, as you say, require ancillary industry. How much does it cost?



Hmmm, is that a two-way Gate spell? If so it seems a bit overpriced - a Teleportation Circle would only be about 30,000 gold, so 60,000 for two.

Significant XP cost for crafting an item, At-Will, Use-Activated, with significant material costs (for creating the platform which will be used to teleport from), an extra 150k just from material components for the spell (1k per use, X 50, then because it is Unlimited, another X 100), then we tack on a multiplier for 'market value', considering the high demand and low supply...

yea, it's not cheap.

[elliott20]

Significant XP cost for crafting an item, At-Will, Use-Activated, with significant material costs (for creating the platform which will be used to teleport from), an extra 150k just from material components for the spell (1k per use, X 50, then because it is Unlimited, another X 100), then we tack on a multiplier for 'market value', considering the high demand and low supply...

yea, it's not cheap.

Personally, I would simply go one step further and say that at will, use activated items simply don't exist. Anything that goes beyond giving you a flat, magic numerical bonus MUST have charges attach to it, pure and simple. This means that items that can create endless amounts of water would instead be an item with lots of create water charges or some such.

[Flickerdart]

Personally, I would simply go one step further and say that at will, use activated items simply don't exist. Anything that goes beyond giving you a flat, magic numerical bonus MUST have charges attach to it, pure and simple. This means that items that can create endless amounts of water would instead be an item with lots of create water charges or some such.

I'd make an exception for the less abusable spells though. I hate spending money on things knowing that after a charge here and a charge there, my investment will have burnt itself out. Eternal wands, of, say, Scorching Ray have never broken any games. Actually, eternal wands of Create Water won't, either: there's an, I think, 3/day cap. It doesn't approach Create Water traps or Decanters of Endless Water in the cheese potential, but it does make sense in the world. It would also mean that wealthy kings can buy a TON of these things and actually have the equivalent of a Decanter of Endless Water by activating one per round for 24 hours a day. Not players, though, unless they have nothing to do with their WBL.

[Yahzi]

If you have many spell casters, your world has much larger problems than magic items: spells.

Cure Minor Wounds: no more deaths from accidents or childbirth.
Zone of Truth. Perfect justice or a perfect police state.
Remove Disease: no more hospitals.
Divination: no more unsolved crimes.

None of this even vaguely represents a medieval world. For high magic your flavor is Sci-Fi, not Fantasy.

[elliott20]

well, I've always argued that this is one of the reasons the D&D magic system fundamentally doesn't jive well with the setting.

The main reason being magic is in fact, too fast, too reliable, and too cheap to use. Seriously, the cost for a magic user to summon a swarm of meteors to destroy a town is what... 8 hours of sleep, takes 6 seconds per volley, and has no actual repercussions on his own person beyond the moral issues he must deal with. With magic being THIS easy, I'm surprised that not every tom, ****, and harry are magic users. In this context, and with multi-classing RAW, it would make perfect sense of wizard colleges churning out a crap ton of wizards who focuses their career on utility / crafting spells.

Wizards, in this case, are basically treated like engineers/scientists/doctors/construction workers all rolled into one. It's like, the most potent profession you can ever have.