[4E] At which level do you run out of feats to take?

[Aron Times]

My character just gained his 11th level, and is now a tactical warlord/wizard/battle captain. Here's his feat selection so far:

1. Action Surge, Arcane Initiate
2. Arcane Implement Proficiency (Heavy Blades)
4. Novice Power
6. Focused Expertise (Longsword)
8. Acolyte Power
10. Adept Power
11. Combat Commander

This leaves me with five more feats for the paragon tier. I guess I can take Toughness to increase my survivability, and Danger Sense and Improved Initiative to ensure that I will always go first in battle.

Actually, I don't really need Toughness, so I still have three feats to spend. Spell Focus? I only get one daily spell, and it may or may not be a save ends effect. Weapon Focus? Well, a battle captain's power lies not in dealing damage but in the obscene attack bonuses that he grants to his allies, so I don't really need it.

Actually, I don't even need Danger Sense and Improved Initiative; my passive abilities affect my allies whether I go first or not.

Basically, it doesn't really matter what feats I choose for the rest of the paragon tier; I've run out of must-have feats that I need to fit his character concept. Further optimization isn't really necessary, leaving me free to choose feats that fit his overall personality.

There is some point in a character's career that he runs out of feats to take. Even most CharOp power builds fill the last few levels with filler feats that don't have any bearing on the build's power level.

So, at what level do you run out of feats to take?

[Gralamin]

So, at what level do you run out of feats to take?

24 usually.

[Sir Homeslice]

I can always have feats that I'd need to take.

[Kylarra]

I can always have feats that I'd need to take.

This, although not really need so much as would want to take.

[Grynning]

I've noticed it really depends on your class. On my sorcerer and psion, I've found that yeah, there's not that many feats that are all that great or necessary (I think I spent 30 minutes trying to find one that wasn't a total waste on my Sorc when he hit 14).

However, some builds you really do need every last feat, particularly with defenders. I also wanted more feats on my Tactical Warlord, though he was a bit more frontline melee focused than yours.

[Mando Knight]

I usually don't run out of available feats, since I like to try to pick as many of the class/race-specific feats as I can. Even if they're once-per-encounter abilities. (such as meta-breath feats for Dragonborn)

[jmbrown]

Skill training is always good. When you've run out of things to make you effective in battle then get a feat to help your party out in skill challenges. At paragon level skill challenges become a lot more fun and in depth. The DMGII offers some additional ideas including random events within the challenge itself that works really well.

[TheEmerged]

Definitely varies by class & build. For the Pacifist Cleric that's joining the group for the next adventure (a "GM-PC" to pad the group out to 5 members), there was only one feat slot in the heroic/paragon tiers where I didn't see a feat worth taking. Epic essentially picked themselves (it was a matter of what order to take them in, not which).

The guy that plays the genasi swordmage in the group I DM though has had trouble on the heroic tier. Part of the problem there is that he doesn't want the resistance feats and that's a lot of what the genasi racial feats are. The other part is I think he'd have been happier as a striker than a defender

[Kylarra]

The guy that plays the genasi swordmage in the group I DM though has had trouble on the heroic tier. Part of the problem there is that he doesn't want the resistance feats and that's a lot of what the genasi racial feats are. The other part is I think he'd have been happier as a striker than a defender

That's kind of weird since there's a fair amount of swordmage feats that are at least moderately useful.

Intelligent blademaster (assuming he's assault)
Focused expertise (weapon of choice)
Improved warding
Elemental assault (again assuming assault)
Weapon focus

that's 5 of the 6 potential heroic feats without considering multiclass and other generics.

[Vortling]

Usually at level 8 or 10 I run out of things I want and start picking whatever.

[tcrudisi]

Seriously? I'm amazed. Okay -- I've never had a character make it past level 9, but that doesn't stop me from dreaming. And by dreaming, I mean statting them out to 30. I always struggle and never have enough feats. There's not a single level where I'm thinking, "Gee, it's time for filler feats!"

Right now I'm playing a level 9 Wild Sorc. There are 4 feats that I really, really want. The problem is that I'll only be able to get one more feat before I hit paragon, and then I'll have another lump of "must-have" feats dumped on me.

I'm currently building a Swordmage for my fiancé for LFR and I'm running into the same problem -- too many feats that are necessary for the build and not enough slots. The Wizard I am building for the same LFR convention is having the same problem.

I really didn't think it was possible to build a character, grabbing up the necessary feats, and still have options.

*edit* Ahh, one thing is that none of the DMs here give out Weapon/Implement/Focus Expertise for free, which I know a lot of DMs do.

[pasko77]

Skill focus and/or training.

[Kurald Galain]

It depends heavily (1) on your class, (2) whether you want to multiclass, (3) whether the *Power splatbooks are allowed, and (4) whether you pick feats for flavor or for mechanical benefit.

Multiclassing requires a rather heavy feat investment; I find that many of my characters do multiclass because they have feats to spare anyway. Also, I find that usually around level 8, I start taking feats that don't matter much, with the intent of swapping them out for paragon feats at level 11 and 12.

Overall, the design calls for feats to give you a small or marginal benefit, but several feats are an exception to this rule (e.g. Enlarge Spell for wizards, Ranged Advantage for rogues). The moment where you "run out of feats to take" is the moment where you've run out of these exceptions, and instead start to take poor to mediocre feats like Skill Focus.

[Guinea Anubis]

I can always have feats that I'd need to take.

This. Even if I dont NEED the feat I can find one to take that will help even if its just a little bit.

[Tengu_temp]

1. Action Surge, Arcane Initiate
2. Arcane Implement Proficiency (Heavy Blades)
4. Novice Power
6. Focused Expertise (Longsword)
8. Acolyte Power
10. Adept Power
11. Combat Commander

I don't see this as "running out of feats to take". There's still Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), Heavy Shield Proficiency, Toughness, Shield/Hide Specialization, Heavy Blade Opportunity, one million feats that give your allies bonuses when they use action points...

Yeah, I'm with the "I never run out of feats to take" crowd.

[Tiki Snakes]

Unless all your concerned about is squeezing the last drops of potential power out of the character, you really shouldn't be in any trouble of running out of feats at this point. Certainly not by level 11.

[Jack_Banzai]

You haven't even hit epic yet; those are the money feats.

[Master_Rahl22]

Improved Tactics, Inspired Tactics, Lend Might, Saving Inspiration, and Tactical Assault are all Heroic feats that you qualify for and seem to fit your concept. Armor Specialization, Heavy Blade Opportunity, Fleet-Footed, Avenging Spirit, Phalanx Warrior, Warlord's Formation are all Paragon feats that might fit. If you have run out of feats to take, you're not looking hard enough is all I'm saying.

[Yakk]

I did a mock-up of your stats (18 int, 16 str, 13 cha to start), then set the character builder to level 20, then picked your level 1 through 11 feats like you did.

These feats looked like they could be useful:
Avenging Spirit
Lend Might
Improved Tactics
Saving Inspiration
Tactical Assault
Paragon Defenses
Vexing Flanker
Unfailing Courage
Any of the 'style' feats that boost one of your at-wills.
Arcane Familiar
Shield Proficiency (Heavy)

...

As for me, my swordmage will run out of feats to take at level 40 or so. Even at level 10, my problem is that any feat I take I will want to retrain at level 11 because I really want 2 paragon tier feats...

[Shardan]

In my experience, melee are the most Feat intensive.

And certain races can add a laundry list of feats that are incredible as well.
Genasi and dragonborn are ridiculous for it.

Some classes and races, meanwhile, have less than useful feats or no feats for alot of the monster races still.

[rayne_dragon]

My wizard's feats are spoken for pretty much to level 30, but my Shaman's feats are pretty much open aside from my plans to take the ones that boost NADs when they become available.

[Nightson]

I find the primal classes have the most chance of running out of good feats because their splat book hasn't come out yet.